Contract Signed / New Build Underway
- Thread starter N4061
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
healhustler
Guru
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When I saw the title of this thread, I figured I'd find N4061 as the initiator and it would be about a "forth" Nordhavn. A surprise indeed! Thanks for sharing the process with us and best of luck in achieving the result you're working toward.
The Decision Process - Part I
A few people have asked how we decided on the Helmsman 38PH over other boats in the same or similar category. While there is no one reason why made the choice we did I will try to summarize in a series of posts (future posts of our blog will go into more detail) how we came to our decision. First a few clarifying points, we are fans of all boats (new or old, slow or fast, expensive or inexpensive) we believe every boat is special in its own way to their owners.
Probably the most compelling reason we selected the Helmsman was that we wanted a new boat that offered maximum value. Over 35 years of boating has allowed us to own both new and used boats. What I discovered was that with each “used” boat, we spent more time working on the boat, investing money and dealing with frustrations and stress worrying was going to break next. This included our most recent boat, a nine year old near perfect (so I thought) Nordhavn 35. Used boats (plus cars and houses) are just not for us. I would rather pay a little more up front and enjoy the boat (with warranty) and know the odds are on our side that we shouldn’t have as many issues for the next five years. I should also add that I enjoy the researching and building the boat as much as owning it so that was factored in.
Now that we knew that boat would be new, we used our 90% rule to decide how we would use the boat and what type of boat best fit our needs. I will discuss the 90% rule more in upcoming posts but basically it makes us look seriously at how we plan to use the boat (no dreaming allowed). We knew we wanted a lot from this boat including west coast cruising in open ocean with distance between ports averaging about 40 miles (no place to hide when the weather turns poor), spending many weekends and a few mid-week nights aboard at the marina and eventually shipping the boat to the east coast to do the ICW. I will be the first to say that no boat is perfect and we are mixing things up a little for any boat to survive a fair assessment but that made the process fun.
Now that we had an honest understanding how we would use the boat we had to look at what size boat we really needed for two of us. One mistake we see so many people make is buying a boat for the occasional family or friends who may visit and not the people who will use the boat 90% of the time. We find people who own smaller to midsize boats tend to keep them longer and use them more frequently. For us there is also the issue of single handling the boat which is something I have to do most of the time since I don’t want Maria having to do anything that could hurt her back. While some people feel comfortable handling boats up to 50’ alone, my limits are closer to 40’.
At this point we knew wanted a new boat for the two of us (plus Daisy our 15 year old Chihuahua), designed to handle coastal cruising, spacious enough for serious time aboard at the marina, handle the ICW (via ground shipment) and it had to be under 40’. Easy, right?
These basic guidelines combined with the need for a little more speed than a FD hull could provide, had us decide on a semi-displacement type hull. We stayed away from other hull designs since our desired cruising speed is between 7 – 9 knots. 20% - 30% greater than the Nordhavn 40 and still slow enough to enjoy a long cruise. Top end of around 11 – 13 knots for those rare times when we want to beat sunset of weather. While some boats offer top end speeds in the higher teens we didn’t see the need since at those speeds its more of a “hold on and watch the fuel burn” – just not for us.
The next decision point was boat style (Downeast, Picnic Style, Tug, Sedan or Trawler to list a few). I spent a couple of years researching and talking with a few Downeast boat builders in the NE and would really enjoy working with one on a new boat but for a number reasons I decided that was not the right direction for us. This resulted in us having to find the right “Production Boat Builder” that would be willing to build us a boat the way we wanted it and not an off the shelf boat. Needless to say this ruled out many builders. At this point some of you are probably thinking this guy is too much and wants it all, just hang in there a little longer. What we found with most builders was if we want to change some cabinetry that would be ok but don’t think about moving a bulkhead or anything that were pre-molded and would require engineering and tooling. We understand and accept the fact these builders need to build a lot boats to stay in business and don’t have time for semi-custom.
So with the above criteria and a very short list of builders we had to start looking at their boats, quality, systems used, reputation, costs and who we could trust and build a relationship with. This meant dealing directly with the builder not a dealership. Another important thing to share is that many well-known builders today do not own the boat yards. Many builder’s partner with a yard overseas to build their designed boats, I found this interesting and realized there are risks with this type of arrangement which I will discuss in the future.
Well this is all for now, we are about to land and the pilot asked the crew to prepare for landing so time to shut down the laptop. Thanks for following us. We will post again soon……
A few people have asked how we decided on the Helmsman 38PH over other boats in the same or similar category. While there is no one reason why made the choice we did I will try to summarize in a series of posts (future posts of our blog will go into more detail) how we came to our decision. First a few clarifying points, we are fans of all boats (new or old, slow or fast, expensive or inexpensive) we believe every boat is special in its own way to their owners.
Probably the most compelling reason we selected the Helmsman was that we wanted a new boat that offered maximum value. Over 35 years of boating has allowed us to own both new and used boats. What I discovered was that with each “used” boat, we spent more time working on the boat, investing money and dealing with frustrations and stress worrying was going to break next. This included our most recent boat, a nine year old near perfect (so I thought) Nordhavn 35. Used boats (plus cars and houses) are just not for us. I would rather pay a little more up front and enjoy the boat (with warranty) and know the odds are on our side that we shouldn’t have as many issues for the next five years. I should also add that I enjoy the researching and building the boat as much as owning it so that was factored in.
Now that we knew that boat would be new, we used our 90% rule to decide how we would use the boat and what type of boat best fit our needs. I will discuss the 90% rule more in upcoming posts but basically it makes us look seriously at how we plan to use the boat (no dreaming allowed). We knew we wanted a lot from this boat including west coast cruising in open ocean with distance between ports averaging about 40 miles (no place to hide when the weather turns poor), spending many weekends and a few mid-week nights aboard at the marina and eventually shipping the boat to the east coast to do the ICW. I will be the first to say that no boat is perfect and we are mixing things up a little for any boat to survive a fair assessment but that made the process fun.
Now that we had an honest understanding how we would use the boat we had to look at what size boat we really needed for two of us. One mistake we see so many people make is buying a boat for the occasional family or friends who may visit and not the people who will use the boat 90% of the time. We find people who own smaller to midsize boats tend to keep them longer and use them more frequently. For us there is also the issue of single handling the boat which is something I have to do most of the time since I don’t want Maria having to do anything that could hurt her back. While some people feel comfortable handling boats up to 50’ alone, my limits are closer to 40’.
At this point we knew wanted a new boat for the two of us (plus Daisy our 15 year old Chihuahua), designed to handle coastal cruising, spacious enough for serious time aboard at the marina, handle the ICW (via ground shipment) and it had to be under 40’. Easy, right?
These basic guidelines combined with the need for a little more speed than a FD hull could provide, had us decide on a semi-displacement type hull. We stayed away from other hull designs since our desired cruising speed is between 7 – 9 knots. 20% - 30% greater than the Nordhavn 40 and still slow enough to enjoy a long cruise. Top end of around 11 – 13 knots for those rare times when we want to beat sunset of weather. While some boats offer top end speeds in the higher teens we didn’t see the need since at those speeds its more of a “hold on and watch the fuel burn” – just not for us.
The next decision point was boat style (Downeast, Picnic Style, Tug, Sedan or Trawler to list a few). I spent a couple of years researching and talking with a few Downeast boat builders in the NE and would really enjoy working with one on a new boat but for a number reasons I decided that was not the right direction for us. This resulted in us having to find the right “Production Boat Builder” that would be willing to build us a boat the way we wanted it and not an off the shelf boat. Needless to say this ruled out many builders. At this point some of you are probably thinking this guy is too much and wants it all, just hang in there a little longer. What we found with most builders was if we want to change some cabinetry that would be ok but don’t think about moving a bulkhead or anything that were pre-molded and would require engineering and tooling. We understand and accept the fact these builders need to build a lot boats to stay in business and don’t have time for semi-custom.
So with the above criteria and a very short list of builders we had to start looking at their boats, quality, systems used, reputation, costs and who we could trust and build a relationship with. This meant dealing directly with the builder not a dealership. Another important thing to share is that many well-known builders today do not own the boat yards. Many builder’s partner with a yard overseas to build their designed boats, I found this interesting and realized there are risks with this type of arrangement which I will discuss in the future.
Well this is all for now, we are about to land and the pilot asked the crew to prepare for landing so time to shut down the laptop. Thanks for following us. We will post again soon……
Diesel Duck
Senior Member
John:
Is there a reason you didn't mention a sail as one of your stabilization options? I ask this because using an appropriately sized sail on a "trawler" type vessel can, and does on many boats, offer decent stabilization and with today's auto-furling sails they're easy peasy to use.
MYTraveler
Guru
My current boat is my 13th (or so, I have lost count) boat, but the first new one. One of my reasons for buying it was that I wanted the reliability that comes with new. In retrospect, I realize that a new boat with complicated systems requires a year or two of shakedown before it becomes optimally reliable. In that regard, I believe that a 1 or 2 year old boat, commissioned and maintained by a knowledgeable and experienced owner, is better than new.
twistedtree
Guru
I agree. My experience has been the same. The great thing about a new boat is you get it exactly the way you want it set up. But I agree that it will take a year or more to get it all shaken out and working correctly.
NEw versus USed
Very valid point on a "complex" boat. This time around we optioned for a "simpler" boat since we wanted a break from the complex systems which we could not repair if and when they failed. It all comes down to cost of ownership, budget and what each individual feels comfortable with.
There is no right or wrong answer here, just an opportunity for everyone to figure out what works best for them. Granted when we sold N4061 after only three years of ownership and "zero findings" pre-purchase survey the new owners did well. This is not the norm and we prefer start out new.
Very valid point on a "complex" boat. This time around we optioned for a "simpler" boat since we wanted a break from the complex systems which we could not repair if and when they failed. It all comes down to cost of ownership, budget and what each individual feels comfortable with.
There is no right or wrong answer here, just an opportunity for everyone to figure out what works best for them. Granted when we sold N4061 after only three years of ownership and "zero findings" pre-purchase survey the new owners did well. This is not the norm and we prefer start out new.
Moonstruck
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- Joined
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- Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Thanks John. You have cleared up somethings. It's obvious the amount of thought that you put into the purchase. When I read earlier that you planned to go down to Mexico and then do the ICW, I wondered how the Helmsman handle going through the canal and Caribbean. Shipping overland makes perfect sense. I have a good deal of experience doing the Keys, Bahamas, ICW, and Chesapeake Bay. I have also done much of the Loop, but not all. Your choice of boat will be great for that type of cruising.
Now, I'm waiting for your modifications.
Now, I'm waiting for your modifications.
Sail Stabilzation
Sail is something that we have not ruled out but based on real life data and posts on TF, the amount of sail required to make a significant impact would be very large and something that may exceed our comfort level. Our planned mast is not set up for this type of system but then again "never say never". Nothing would make me happier then to find a simple non-mechanical system that would work as well active fin stabilization.
Keep the ideas coming.
Sail is something that we have not ruled out but based on real life data and posts on TF, the amount of sail required to make a significant impact would be very large and something that may exceed our comfort level. Our planned mast is not set up for this type of system but then again "never say never". Nothing would make me happier then to find a simple non-mechanical system that would work as well active fin stabilization.
Keep the ideas coming.
Hello John T and Maria
Been keeping tabs on your interesting thread. Looking forward to learn more about this wonderful adventure you two are living first hand.
As per your post # 33; as well as other posts of yours:
I can see you have an extremely analytical MO for approaching a situation and setting its boundaries while still keeping flexibility as a premium, important function during refinements.
Yours is an extra comprehensive game plan for ending up with a product that fits your needs and desires. I've never seen better thought pattern placed into life-style fitting design efforts that should culminate in your receiving nearly exactly what you want/need.
The word attrition's meaning offers near-magic qualities when its weights can be applied knowledgably to a circumstance. Thoughtful timing and actions-then-taken are two of its most pronounced lever point weights.
Get It On! - Art
Been keeping tabs on your interesting thread. Looking forward to learn more about this wonderful adventure you two are living first hand.
As per your post # 33; as well as other posts of yours:
I can see you have an extremely analytical MO for approaching a situation and setting its boundaries while still keeping flexibility as a premium, important function during refinements.
Yours is an extra comprehensive game plan for ending up with a product that fits your needs and desires. I've never seen better thought pattern placed into life-style fitting design efforts that should culminate in your receiving nearly exactly what you want/need.
The word attrition's meaning offers near-magic qualities when its weights can be applied knowledgably to a circumstance. Thoughtful timing and actions-then-taken are two of its most pronounced lever point weights.
Get It On! - Art
Boat Search - A look at Downest Style Boats
During my previous post I mentioned a few different style boats we looked at without going into any specifics. I thought this would be a good time to expand a little on how our “boat needs” influenced our how we evaluated different styles. Please keep in mind that “what works for us may not work for others” so please keep that in mind when you are looking for your next boat.
Our process of evaluating boat styles is done more from a “functionality” perspective versus how the boat looks. This approach has resulted in more than one discussion (not always pleasant) between Mary and me. Let’s be honest, most trawlers are not sexy or turn heads. It took me years to convince Mary to buy our first N40. We were both in our 40’s (still young) and use to fast boats and cars. Motoring along at six knots in something that looks more like a navy ship then a sleek looking “go-fast” wasn’t easy for her to grasp. While she finally came aboard she doesn't get very excited with the whole “trawler” concept from a visual perspective. To be honest I’m not very far behind her but I manage to maintain focused on what works while still appreciating the boats lines.
When we decided to “test the waters” and return to boating, we selected the N35 for a number of reasons including its styling. Our N35 convinced us to explore Downeast boats such as Sabre, Back Cove, GB Eastbay and true custom built boats in more detail. We attended numerous boat shows, visited dealers and spent countless hours researching using the Internet. After developing a good understanding of these boats pro’s & con’s we were able to rule them out this time around. Our primary issue is the overall lack of living space inherent with this design, especially in the salon. One reason is their narrow beams required to provide the speed performance desired by this market segment. Many of these boats also have small side desks which further take away from interior space. While having the steering station integrated into the salon has its benefits (everyone is together) I knew I missed my pilothouse with its greater visibility. We also acknowledge that while larger boats (over 45') offer nice accommodations below decks, we both prefer to be upstairs with widows where you can enjoy nice 360 degree views.
Another concern I have with some of today’s higher end boats is their level of complexity and lack of work space especially with the engine room. When I see a pair of large engines squeezed into a small engine compartment it makes me cringe. How in the heck could anyone perform hourly engine room checks while under way? My limited research on some of the newer outdrives (including Pods) also raised some concern related to maintenance costs and repair. Having to haul the boat out of the water to perform required maintenance on the new Pods can get expensive unless you can time it with annual haul outs. Just something else to consider. Fuel and water capacities are normally smaller than found in a trawler and smaller boats do not offer a fly-bridge.
Would we ever consider a Downeast boat - yes if we were looking for a day or weekend boat but it would have to be a single engine and simpler boat?
Well that is a very high level summary why we didn’t select a beautiful looking Downeast Style boat this time around. Our next post will explore another style of boat. More to follow……
John T.
During my previous post I mentioned a few different style boats we looked at without going into any specifics. I thought this would be a good time to expand a little on how our “boat needs” influenced our how we evaluated different styles. Please keep in mind that “what works for us may not work for others” so please keep that in mind when you are looking for your next boat.
Our process of evaluating boat styles is done more from a “functionality” perspective versus how the boat looks. This approach has resulted in more than one discussion (not always pleasant) between Mary and me. Let’s be honest, most trawlers are not sexy or turn heads. It took me years to convince Mary to buy our first N40. We were both in our 40’s (still young) and use to fast boats and cars. Motoring along at six knots in something that looks more like a navy ship then a sleek looking “go-fast” wasn’t easy for her to grasp. While she finally came aboard she doesn't get very excited with the whole “trawler” concept from a visual perspective. To be honest I’m not very far behind her but I manage to maintain focused on what works while still appreciating the boats lines.
When we decided to “test the waters” and return to boating, we selected the N35 for a number of reasons including its styling. Our N35 convinced us to explore Downeast boats such as Sabre, Back Cove, GB Eastbay and true custom built boats in more detail. We attended numerous boat shows, visited dealers and spent countless hours researching using the Internet. After developing a good understanding of these boats pro’s & con’s we were able to rule them out this time around. Our primary issue is the overall lack of living space inherent with this design, especially in the salon. One reason is their narrow beams required to provide the speed performance desired by this market segment. Many of these boats also have small side desks which further take away from interior space. While having the steering station integrated into the salon has its benefits (everyone is together) I knew I missed my pilothouse with its greater visibility. We also acknowledge that while larger boats (over 45') offer nice accommodations below decks, we both prefer to be upstairs with widows where you can enjoy nice 360 degree views.
Another concern I have with some of today’s higher end boats is their level of complexity and lack of work space especially with the engine room. When I see a pair of large engines squeezed into a small engine compartment it makes me cringe. How in the heck could anyone perform hourly engine room checks while under way? My limited research on some of the newer outdrives (including Pods) also raised some concern related to maintenance costs and repair. Having to haul the boat out of the water to perform required maintenance on the new Pods can get expensive unless you can time it with annual haul outs. Just something else to consider. Fuel and water capacities are normally smaller than found in a trawler and smaller boats do not offer a fly-bridge.
Would we ever consider a Downeast boat - yes if we were looking for a day or weekend boat but it would have to be a single engine and simpler boat?
Well that is a very high level summary why we didn’t select a beautiful looking Downeast Style boat this time around. Our next post will explore another style of boat. More to follow……
John T.
O C Diver
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- 12,867
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- Slow Hand
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- Cherubini Independence 45
John, let's be honest, many of us here take exception to the first bolded sentence. Glad you're working on a new build; hope you enjoy the process. Attempting to elevate your choice by dismissing what so many others here find attractive and desirable in a boat is tactless. Don't want to hijack your thread, but hope in the future you can focus on the perceived positives of yours without intentionally or unintentionally insulting others.
Ted
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menzies
Guru
Well said.
Congratulations John. It will be very interesting how you decided on your next boat especially given your experiences with othr boats.
It is hard to tell from the makers pictures but I would investigate the exhaust system shown. It seems very low considering the waterlift muffler.
It is hard to tell from the makers pictures but I would investigate the exhaust system shown. It seems very low considering the waterlift muffler.
MYTraveler
Guru
He was being honest, and was only expressing his opinion. I can't see why that should bother anyone. I hope no one is offended when I admit that I didn't buy my boat for its looks.
Thanks to everyone for your response. To be honest I was little concerned with openly sharing our journey including our process, thoughts, decisions and mistakes. I knew eventually we might rattle a few owners / dreamers. As I mentioned in first post "we are fans of all boats" regardless of make or model. If we happen to offend anyone with our thoughts or view points it is not intentional. I think everyone will agree that once you open yourself up to a public forum you will get criticized eventually. Just like our decision not to have stabilizers installed at this time. A few folks wrote this was a mistake, that's OK with us since its our decision. We recognize the risks with our decisions (some we may regret) but again this is our decision and our boat. We hope our journey and lesson's learned help more people then those we may rub the wrong way. Thanks
John
John
John - You have my vote! I really like reading your thread/posts. You two went about choosing a boat in very similar way me and mine do also. Lots o' persons are not too impressed with our choice of boat... and, that's OK with us. Each to their own! But, I do like reading everyone's opinions; keeps me refreshed in different perspectives.
If any boat owners' have such thin skin that they become offended by your choice/desire/needs/impressions/admissions stated in a post... well then... IMO they should not be on a boating forum! That's a whole other discussion!
John: Since you're in CA and the build is in the PNW, who often do you plan on seeing her evolve? I'd almost want to move there but the builders would probably want to adjust the cost for owner participation. lol
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Progress Reports on a new build
Larry, great question and obviously something that keeps me up at night and needs some discussion here. I hope I didn't imply that the boat is built in the US? While the owner of the Helmsman Trawlers is located in Seattle the yard is located overseas in China (more to follow on this subject) as are many other builders.
As with our previous Nordhavn new builds, once you sign the contract and make your deposit you are then at the mercy of the builder and yard to work together and make sure everything turns out as you planned. With the Nordies our sales representative and good friend Jeff Merrill, would from time to time send us a CD loaded with pictures. It was like Christmas every time we would receive the CD in the mail. Watching your boat being built (even if only in photo's) is a great experience.
With the Helmsman 38PH I already made 4 trips to Seattle (and should have opened up a frequent flyer account with Alaska Airlines) to see the boats and meet with Scott. As I mentioned in my original post I'm the type of person who needs to build a trusting relationship with those whom I plan to invest my time and money. Building a semi-custom boat or even a production boat with a long list of options and few changes can have its challenges and if / when things start to go off track it helps to know the person working with.
With this build Scott at Waterline Boats in Seattle will be providing us photos on a regular basis and since we are redesigning the salon / galley we will also be working very closely with the yard on the drawings and fine tuning things.
While Scott makes periodical visits to the yard and personally inspects each completed boat prior to it being loaded on a freighter for its month long trip across the pacific I'm on the fence about visiting the yard. He and spoke about making a trip over together before the boat is completed which sounds exciting but I'm not crazy about the long flight. My final decision will be based on how well the redesign efforts and build process progress.
John
Larry, great question and obviously something that keeps me up at night and needs some discussion here. I hope I didn't imply that the boat is built in the US? While the owner of the Helmsman Trawlers is located in Seattle the yard is located overseas in China (more to follow on this subject) as are many other builders.
As with our previous Nordhavn new builds, once you sign the contract and make your deposit you are then at the mercy of the builder and yard to work together and make sure everything turns out as you planned. With the Nordies our sales representative and good friend Jeff Merrill, would from time to time send us a CD loaded with pictures. It was like Christmas every time we would receive the CD in the mail. Watching your boat being built (even if only in photo's) is a great experience.
With the Helmsman 38PH I already made 4 trips to Seattle (and should have opened up a frequent flyer account with Alaska Airlines) to see the boats and meet with Scott. As I mentioned in my original post I'm the type of person who needs to build a trusting relationship with those whom I plan to invest my time and money. Building a semi-custom boat or even a production boat with a long list of options and few changes can have its challenges and if / when things start to go off track it helps to know the person working with.
With this build Scott at Waterline Boats in Seattle will be providing us photos on a regular basis and since we are redesigning the salon / galley we will also be working very closely with the yard on the drawings and fine tuning things.
While Scott makes periodical visits to the yard and personally inspects each completed boat prior to it being loaded on a freighter for its month long trip across the pacific I'm on the fence about visiting the yard. He and spoke about making a trip over together before the boat is completed which sounds exciting but I'm not crazy about the long flight. My final decision will be based on how well the redesign efforts and build process progress.
John
Other Style Boats
Other Style Boats: our previous post was focused on one of many different styles of boats available to all of us – Downeast. This post will take a look at sedan style trawlers, our conclusions and how we came very close to building this style boat.
When we started looking for our next boat Mary was adamant she wanted something a little sportier. Since I was sold on another trawler we needed to find the win/win. I studied the functionality and benefits a sedan or Europa style boat like the Grand Banks, Selene 42 and even Helmsman 38Sedan had to offer. A slightly sportier look with nice wide walk around decks which would make docking a little easier. A long salon with combined steering station. Everything was looking good on paper (even Mary liked the look) until we went aboard and realized how the nice walk around decks stole a lot of the salons width (ouch).
Not being one to give up easy, I spent weeks measuring and redesigning Scott’s 38 Sedan until we finally met in Seattle a few months ago with my drawings and tape measure. He arranged access to the last sedan he sold so I could confirm my changes would work. I remember walking down the dock and getting a little excited thinking wow that’s a nice the boat looked. The salon was long and the overall appearance of the boat very clean looking. We went aboard via the aft deck starboard side boarding gate when Scott realized he forgo the keys in his truck. As he walked back to get them I went up top to the flybridge and was blown away on just how large the aft deck and flybridge were. With its large L-shaped seating area to port and dual pedestal seats at the steering station I thought Mary will love this. The flybridge on N40 was in our opinion an afterthought design, very small and not very practical. There was plenty of room for 10’ tender and plenty of built in storage. Very nice design.
Once Scott returned I was ready to get inside and look at how our next boat would turn out with a few simple changes. It didn’t take more than 30 seconds for me to realize “this is not going to work”. Despite the boats overall large beam of close to 14’ the wide side decks ate up about 3 feet and we were looking at about a 10 ½ foot beam inside (ouch). We discussed lengthening the salon about 2 feet by pushing back the aft bulkhead (Scott was onboard with this idea) but that wouldn’t be enough. I struggled for about an hour aboard the boat looking for ways to make it work but in the end I concluded it just wasn’t going to be. The other aspect of this boat which I struggled with was the lack of engine room space and missing engine room access door. While I had a few crazy ideas how we could add an access door from the bathroom I didn’t realize just how low the ER ceiling would be. While the boat looked great and similar to other builder’s designs, it just wasn’t going to work for us this time around. So that ended our attempts to find a sedan style trawler this time around.
Next post we will look at pilothouse trawlers……
As always we appreciate everyone's comments and feedback. Remember this is intended to be a learning process for others and nothing more. What works for us doesn't work for everyone. thanks
Other Style Boats: our previous post was focused on one of many different styles of boats available to all of us – Downeast. This post will take a look at sedan style trawlers, our conclusions and how we came very close to building this style boat.
When we started looking for our next boat Mary was adamant she wanted something a little sportier. Since I was sold on another trawler we needed to find the win/win. I studied the functionality and benefits a sedan or Europa style boat like the Grand Banks, Selene 42 and even Helmsman 38Sedan had to offer. A slightly sportier look with nice wide walk around decks which would make docking a little easier. A long salon with combined steering station. Everything was looking good on paper (even Mary liked the look) until we went aboard and realized how the nice walk around decks stole a lot of the salons width (ouch).
Not being one to give up easy, I spent weeks measuring and redesigning Scott’s 38 Sedan until we finally met in Seattle a few months ago with my drawings and tape measure. He arranged access to the last sedan he sold so I could confirm my changes would work. I remember walking down the dock and getting a little excited thinking wow that’s a nice the boat looked. The salon was long and the overall appearance of the boat very clean looking. We went aboard via the aft deck starboard side boarding gate when Scott realized he forgo the keys in his truck. As he walked back to get them I went up top to the flybridge and was blown away on just how large the aft deck and flybridge were. With its large L-shaped seating area to port and dual pedestal seats at the steering station I thought Mary will love this. The flybridge on N40 was in our opinion an afterthought design, very small and not very practical. There was plenty of room for 10’ tender and plenty of built in storage. Very nice design.
Once Scott returned I was ready to get inside and look at how our next boat would turn out with a few simple changes. It didn’t take more than 30 seconds for me to realize “this is not going to work”. Despite the boats overall large beam of close to 14’ the wide side decks ate up about 3 feet and we were looking at about a 10 ½ foot beam inside (ouch). We discussed lengthening the salon about 2 feet by pushing back the aft bulkhead (Scott was onboard with this idea) but that wouldn’t be enough. I struggled for about an hour aboard the boat looking for ways to make it work but in the end I concluded it just wasn’t going to be. The other aspect of this boat which I struggled with was the lack of engine room space and missing engine room access door. While I had a few crazy ideas how we could add an access door from the bathroom I didn’t realize just how low the ER ceiling would be. While the boat looked great and similar to other builder’s designs, it just wasn’t going to work for us this time around. So that ended our attempts to find a sedan style trawler this time around.
Next post we will look at pilothouse trawlers……
As always we appreciate everyone's comments and feedback. Remember this is intended to be a learning process for others and nothing more. What works for us doesn't work for everyone. thanks
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You have captured the pros and cons of many sedan and europa designs, mine included. The sedan is so narrow to accommodate the walkaround side decks that valuable interior space is lost. It's a compromise I was willing to make to get a 'fishable' and 'cruisable' boat, but it's not acceptable for many.
Another feature the 38PH shares with the sedan is the cockpit. It's comparable to being 'at' water's edge, not above it. Makes for easier single-handing, too.
Great thread, John. Keep it coming!!
Another feature the 38PH shares with the sedan is the cockpit. It's comparable to being 'at' water's edge, not above it. Makes for easier single-handing, too.
Great thread, John. Keep it coming!!
Hi John, I have been reading the Forums for awhile now, so much great info, more on that in my intro....Just wanted to thank you for taking the time and allowing us a peak into your thinking and decision making process....The PH 38 has had my interest for some time. Looking forward to following along on your build , we might be following right behind you some day soon...Lastly, like you pointed out, when you put yourself out on public forums you will always rub someone the wrong way...just remember the people that you rub the wrong way are constantly looking to be rubbed the wrong way....so.....you are actually giving them what they want also....LOL, Thanks again...G
G, thanks for the post, we both appreciate it. Regarding the Helmsman 38PH, just hold on until we complete this build and you see the enhancements we are working on. We feel very fortunate that Scott has placed so much trust in us to compliment an already greatest value and proven boat. More on this over the next six months........
John
I love reading your process and thoughts along the way and respect you've decided you don't need stabilizers. Most boats your size don't have them. I would ask if you'd looked at side-power vector fins in the process. They appear to be an excellent match for a boat in your size range. We did just order them on a boat. To this point they've been used more in Europe than elsewhere.
Side Power
G, I'm not familiar with this system but will take a look. As you mentioned this size boat is on the small side for stabilizers. We are really on the fence if we will add them in the future. As I stated earlier we really want to this boat simpler and every system added cost and complexity. The fact the boat can accept Gyro Stabilizers or Active Fins helps me sleep at night. Thanks
John
I have
G, I'm not familiar with this system but will take a look. As you mentioned this size boat is on the small side for stabilizers. We are really on the fence if we will add them in the future. As I stated earlier we really want to this boat simpler and every system added cost and complexity. The fact the boat can accept Gyro Stabilizers or Active Fins helps me sleep at night. Thanks
John
Boat Options
Jim, we did look at PT boats, not in detail,but enough to decide that they were not for us. If you would like to discuss in more detail please email at N4061@yahoo.com. thanks
Jim, we did look at PT boats, not in detail,but enough to decide that they were not for us. If you would like to discuss in more detail please email at N4061@yahoo.com. thanks
Boat Beam - Another Discussion
Hello again, we have a small cold front blowing through today (a nice change) which has me enjoying the indoors a little more than normal. I was working on the new blog but decided to give that a rest as progress is very slow and getting a little frustrating. This lead me to begin working on my next post focused on evaluating pilothouse trawlers (finally). As I started to collect my thoughts and data from previous writings I decided it may worth discussing "beam width" first. Not very exciting I know, but this simple aspect of any boats design plays such an important role and has major impact on the amount of live aboard space.
To make this a little more interesting I will ask you take a look at the different beam widths manufactures post for their boats with the same Waterline length. One would think may be all the same, are they? Check out 4 or 6 boats and see what you discover. You may want to use boat style so its more interesting to each of you.
So why am I hung up on beam size? When you look at any boat design in world you quickly realize that the designer doesn't has many options when it comes down to stuffing as much interior space as possible unless he designs a longer or taller boat. We all know what happens as a boat grows longer: tooling and material costs increase first followed by cost of ownership items like insurance, hull cleaning, washing and boat slip costs. When was the last time someone asked what your beam was when is came down to give you a quote or estimate for something?
Costs aside, if you plan to spend serious time aboard your boat and have a fixed budget (like us) you will want to squeeze every ounce of living space out of the hull as possible while at the same time not build a boat whos A/B ratio turns dangerous. While FD boats can handle a taller top structure a SD or Planning Hull needs to be more a little more cautious. Remember the taller your go the more sail area you are creating for those fun filled windy days trying pull into the dock (ouch).
The way I see it the safest and least costly approach is to build a boat with maximum interior space is to design the widest beam possible without impacting performance. Even within our little world of SD trawlers you will see the tradeoffs between beam width and speed. At this point we all need to ask ourselves which is more important, increased space on board or a little more speed and higher fuel bill?
We will get into this subject in much more detail during future posts. By the way when I looked beam width ratios on the three major builders of FD boats our N40 came in second (If memory serves me correctly) against all other Nordhavn's. Hope you enjoyed this quick post.
John
Hello again, we have a small cold front blowing through today (a nice change) which has me enjoying the indoors a little more than normal. I was working on the new blog but decided to give that a rest as progress is very slow and getting a little frustrating. This lead me to begin working on my next post focused on evaluating pilothouse trawlers (finally). As I started to collect my thoughts and data from previous writings I decided it may worth discussing "beam width" first. Not very exciting I know, but this simple aspect of any boats design plays such an important role and has major impact on the amount of live aboard space.
To make this a little more interesting I will ask you take a look at the different beam widths manufactures post for their boats with the same Waterline length. One would think may be all the same, are they? Check out 4 or 6 boats and see what you discover. You may want to use boat style so its more interesting to each of you.
So why am I hung up on beam size? When you look at any boat design in world you quickly realize that the designer doesn't has many options when it comes down to stuffing as much interior space as possible unless he designs a longer or taller boat. We all know what happens as a boat grows longer: tooling and material costs increase first followed by cost of ownership items like insurance, hull cleaning, washing and boat slip costs. When was the last time someone asked what your beam was when is came down to give you a quote or estimate for something?
Costs aside, if you plan to spend serious time aboard your boat and have a fixed budget (like us) you will want to squeeze every ounce of living space out of the hull as possible while at the same time not build a boat whos A/B ratio turns dangerous. While FD boats can handle a taller top structure a SD or Planning Hull needs to be more a little more cautious. Remember the taller your go the more sail area you are creating for those fun filled windy days trying pull into the dock (ouch).
The way I see it the safest and least costly approach is to build a boat with maximum interior space is to design the widest beam possible without impacting performance. Even within our little world of SD trawlers you will see the tradeoffs between beam width and speed. At this point we all need to ask ourselves which is more important, increased space on board or a little more speed and higher fuel bill?
We will get into this subject in much more detail during future posts. By the way when I looked beam width ratios on the three major builders of FD boats our N40 came in second (If memory serves me correctly) against all other Nordhavn's. Hope you enjoyed this quick post.
John
aginglawyer
Member
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- 20
- Location
- US
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- La Paloma Blanca
- Vessel Make
- Helmsman Trawler 38
Another one on its way now
Good choice of boat! Mine shipped from Shanghai last week and we are looking forward to getting on board in about another week and a half! Where will you be docking your boat?
Allan
Good choice of boat! Mine shipped from Shanghai last week and we are looking forward to getting on board in about another week and a half! Where will you be docking your boat?
Allan
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