Fortress Anchor Retrival

timjet · Nov 1, 2015

On the Chesapeake with it's mostly mud bottom I changed anchors recently to a Fortress, which incidently works very well on mud bottoms. The problem is retreving it.
Should I attach a 20' line to the head of the Fortress with a small float and slip it loose with the line before attempting to retrieve it?

Forkliftt · Nov 1, 2015

I did some single handing (on the boat) a few weeks back- mechanical windlass, lower helm with side doors. I pulled up till rode was vertical- then forward again for a "four count" to break it out of the mud. Worked every time.

1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

HopCar · Nov 1, 2015

I agree with Forky, rode vertical, forward a little and it'll break out. There is no easy way to attach a trip line to a Danforth style anchor and unless the anchor fouls on something, you'll never need it.

timjet · Nov 1, 2015

Thanks guys I'll do that.

Nomad Willy · Nov 1, 2015

If you've hooked a cable going vertical and moving fwd likely won't retrieve the anchor. But unless you've hooked a cable or chain just vertical will do. Giving it time (with tension) is very effective too. Sorta the opposite of "soaking" it down. Moving fwd or backwards when it's vertical will increase tension.

Perhaps you need an anchor retriever .. that's basically an oblong or eliptical ring that one lowers down the rode assuming it will eventially slide over and down the shank. Then w slight tension on the rode and lots of tension on the retriever line perhaps using a dinghy it should come up.

How hard to you set your Fortress and how big is it?

funangler · Nov 1, 2015

Slow and steady in reverses is the way to go. Going forward on it you run the risk of putting to much down pressure on your bow pulpit and breaking it. I have done this and as mine was made out of steel. If it's really stuck take to a stern cleat and try then. You also run the risk of running the line over when it breaks free if going forward with it on the bow.

jwnall · Nov 1, 2015

Actually, you don't have to go forward with a lot of pressure, since that can indeed damage the pulpit. Just go up until the rode is vertical, cleat it off, and then relax for a bit. The motion of the boat will break it loose, especially if there is any wave action at all. At least this always worked for me, anyway. Your mileage may differ, I suppose.

Art · Nov 1, 2015

Forkliftt said:
I did some single handing (on the boat) a few weeks back- mechanical windlass, lower helm with side doors. I pulled up till rode was vertical- then forward again for a "four count" to break it out of the mud. Worked every time.

HopCar said:

I agree with Forky, rode vertical, forward a little and it'll break out. There is no easy way to attach a trip line to a Danforth style anchor and unless the anchor fouls on something, you'll never need it.

Click to expand...

Ditto and Ditto!!

FX-23 - Taken up out of mud in same way. Only little hassle is the BIG chunk of mud in flukes. Real fair trade-off for anchor that holds well in mud!

PS: HopCar as dealer sent me that Fortress Anchor... I recommend!

Pgitug · Nov 1, 2015

Fortress says to come to the anchor, tighten the rode and Back Down on the anchor. Never ride forward over the top as you can bend or break the blades.

Forkliftt · Nov 1, 2015

jwnall said:
Actually, you don't have to go forward with a lot of pressure, since that can indeed damage the pulpit. Just go up until the rode is vertical, cleat if off, and then relax for a bit. The motion of the boat will break it loose, especially if there is any wave action at all. At least this always worked for me, anyway. Your mileage may differ, I suppose.

John- I'll try that in the future as well. Great idea.

1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

Art · Nov 1, 2015

Pgitug said:
Fortress says to come to the anchor, tighten the rode and Back Down on the anchor. Never ride forward over the top as you can bend or break the blades.

Not supposed to go hard on breakout motion (in forward or reverse) once anchor line is truly vertical and secure via being cleated and chocked off boat's bow or transom. Gentle motion does the trick. IMO... if an anchor's metal components can't handle the slight nudging power of engine(s) in idle rpm (or even slightly above) then that is an anchor I would not want need to trust in a BIG blow. That said - I do trust Fortress anchors and personally believe the item you mention above is a basic reverse "caveat emptor" statement to legally protect the manufacturer just... incase... a boater decides to push way too high on rpm... which I could see potentially creating anchor material and part problems.

Ski in NC · Nov 1, 2015

I've anchored many hundreds of times with a Fortress, with no windlass. I just drive up to anchor to get rode vertical, cleat it off then back down with boat in reverse for like 50 feet. Pops it loose and then I go fwd and pull it up by hand, shake it off, and stow it.

Nice thing is I can work engine and thruster controls through the pilot house window, so it minimizes the rat-race.

Anchor Brian · Nov 2, 2015

We drill a hole into the crown (center piece) to which you can attach a small shackle, a secondary line and a buoy to float on the surface. In event that the flukes get stuck or retrieval is difficult, then you can pick up the buoy and pull the anchor out from behind.

An image of the crown is below with the location of this hole, which is under one of the mud palm plates.

All of that said, I don't have any first hand experience trying this retrieval method in soft mud. I certainly know from the Chesapeake Bay testing that once you load up and bury a Fortress deeply, and tightly compress the soil against the two large flukes, then retrieval is simply not going to be easy.

I think patience is the key here, particularly if you have been anchored for a fair amount of time and you have encountered some gusty winds.

Aboard the 81-ft Rachel Carson that we used for the testing, we pulled up tight directly above the anchor at a 1:1 scope, and then let the gentle movement of the boat in the light waves help us to break the anchor free, which usually took around 20 minutes.

Safe anchoring,
Brian

Nomad Willy · Nov 2, 2015

Hi Brian,
Just say'in ...
1-1 scope is w the rode at 45 degrees.
Just being a smart ass.

There's lots of Fortress anchors on the two 30' floats as primary anchors in LaConner WA where we have our boat. Few are very big.

Did you see the thread on the AC-14 stockless anchor? I'm sort-of fascinated by that thing. It has a crown like a buldozer blade where your "palms" are.

ranger58sb · Nov 2, 2015

manyboats said:
1-1 scope is w the rode at 45 degrees.

Might not have been; the launch point on the Rachel Carson may have been substantially high off the water...

-Chris

Nomad Willy · Nov 2, 2015

Chris,
Good thinking ..
But what I recall in the pics on the thread the anchors were deployed at deck level. The deck may not have been as low as I think and the water was fairly shallow but a vertical rode is not 1-1. And I'm certianly not picking on Brian. Three to one scope is a ratio of two measurements and when the rode is vertical there's only the vertical dimension .. the horizontal is non-existant. I've wondered in the past if that would be 1-0

markpierce · Nov 2, 2015

Anchor rode scope is not an expression of an angle. It is the relationship of the distance between sea bottom and where the rode exits the boat versus the length of rode deployed . So, a vertical line is 1:1

Anchor Brian · Nov 2, 2015

manyboats said:
And I'm certainly not picking on Brian.

Its ok Eric, pick away, after all, it is an always-contentious anchor thread! :hide:

My understanding of scope is the same as Mark's. Here's a for instance:

While attempting to retrieve the FX-16 after one pull during the Chesapeake Bay testing, and with the boat and aft winch directly above / vertical to the anchor.....and with the line as tight as a piano wire, the winch operator calculated the following:

Freeboard: 4 ft
+ Water depth: 26 ft
= 30 ft total

Chain: 20 ft
+ Wire rope: 23 ft
= 43 ft total

Therefore, the scope was 1:1 and the anchor was buried 13 ft in the soft mud.

Regarding the AC-14 stockless anchor, I see that it is widely sold by large anchor resellers such as Anchor Marine in Houston and Sotra in Norway, and I will try and find the thread you mentioned.

Nomad Willy · Nov 2, 2015

OK Brian I see a 1-1 scope as 40' deep and the anchor directly below a point 40' from the bow roller. One unit vertical and one unit horizontal. What I see in your numbers is about a 1.5-1 scope.

When I get home tonight I'll look in Chapman's book. He has presented this stuff for years and was bound to be corrected if he was/is wrong.

Oh I see your comment about the anchor being 13' down in the mud. Well if the rode was straight from the bow roller to the anchor .. then yes 1-1 scope. Didn't think in terms of deeply set anchors and in most mud the rode would be hook shaped as would be a chain cable or line. So 1-1 it is. Usually the rode dosn't get into the bottom at all .. especially w Danforth type anchors.

But I disagree w you Mark. A vertical rode is not even a ratio. The anchor is just "X" feet deep.

caltexflanc · Nov 2, 2015

Usually the rode dosn't get into the bottom at all ..

That's only the case if you don't set it very well at all.

ranger58sb · Nov 2, 2015

markpierce said:
Anchor rode scope is not an expression of an angle. It is the relationship of the distance between sea bottom and where the rode exits the boat versus the length of rode deployed . So, a vertical line is 1:1

manyboats said:
But I disagree w you Mark. A vertical rode is not even a ratio. The anchor is just "X" feet deep.

I think Mark's right.

In 10' water depth and with a bow roller 5' off the water... 15' of rode would be a 1:1 relationship. Or actually 15:15, but then reduced to 1:1 with some whizzy math.

(With some discrepancy for the length of the anchor shank.)

So the "ratio" is "feet of rode" to "feet of depth." (Or meters, for our metric brethren around the world.)

-Chris

Nomad Willy · Nov 2, 2015

Brian, Mark and Chris are indeed right.
And I am wrong.
And Mark's right it has nothing to do w degrees or rode angle.

From a standpoint of physics the angle of the rode is the operative element of scope performance as I see it but it's not true re the actual rode definition. In a perfect world I would see the scope number representing the angle of the rode. But it is the way it is to make it as easy as possible to consistantly anchor at a good rode angle re the performance of the anchor. Anchors vary .. Like the Claws having fairly low performance overall but what performance they do have is extended further into the short scope range. A good short scope anchor should then have fairly good performance at 2-1 as the rode will be flatter than it would at 45 degrees ... I think. What scope 45 degrees would be I don't know but think it would be too short or steep re the rode angle.

I also thought the scope was measured from the surface of the water .. not the bow roller. Again .. Makes it simple.

Bacchus · Nov 2, 2015

Angles for Common Anchor Scopes

markpierce said:
Anchor rode scope is not an expression of an angle. It is the relationship of the distance between sea bottom and where the rode exits the boat versus the length of rode deployed . So, a vertical line is 1:1

Exactly

So here are few common anchor scopes converted to the angle (theta) between the rode and vertical from the bow... (the pdf is a little crisper than the snapshot)

FF · Nov 3, 2015

WE much prefer a line to the crown to use for recovery , with ant anchor style..

In a crowded anchorage it also helps the next folks in to not foul your set,

We tie off to the crown with a 1/4 ir 3/8 line which is then run thru the loop of a small 6 - 8 inch ball and tie the end to a std lead sounding weight.

This automatically floats the ball directly above the anchor.

And should you need accurate soundings , the gear is already on the deck , ready for use.

Art · Nov 3, 2015

From decades of boating and anchoring nearly every night aboard boat (that's hundreds of times) I only experienced one of our anchors become irretrievable. That was in mid 1960's, Block Island, Big Bay. We worked on it for hours trying to get it loose... finally cut the rode and called it good. The 30 + lb Danforth must have been severely snagged on cable or other immovable object. Never have used a crown line. Doubt it would have helped in the "snagged" case sited above.

I also had to cut anchor line for boater in distress once. Due to circumstances, didn't have very much time to dick around trying to pull it up. Three of us in launches tried our best for fair amount of time - no luck!

Oh well - in five + decades of being an active hand or Captain aboard boats... that equals only two anchors lost that I experienced first hand and that were released via rode-cut by my hands! Not too bad, I guess!!

caltexflanc · Nov 3, 2015

As someone else mentioned here somewhere, you can fashion a retrieval system for badly snagged anchors with a length of chain and a couple of lines. Having a tender deployed is handy. Attach a line to each end of chain. Lacking a length of chain (which is best), a double chain plate snubber can be used if lines made long enough. Loop around anchor rode and let slide down all the way. Put some slack in anchor rode with big boat, say with 2:1 rode (but not so much that rode can reach running gear). Pull retrieval lines steadily with tender in opposite direction. The longer those lines can be the better to lower the angle. If you don't have a tender, same drill, but spin the big boat around with more scope and pull.. careful now!

Pgitug · Nov 9, 2015

If X is feet and Y is anchor position then what is Z?

Bacchus · Nov 9, 2015

Pgitug said:
If X is feet and Y is anchor position then what is Z?

Huh???
Draw us a diagram or restate.

The normal anchor ratios stated are Length of rode over distance from bow roller to bottom (water depth + HT of bow above water)

So... 1:1 = vertical
5:1 = L of rode = 5x (depth + HT of bow)

Don

Art · Nov 9, 2015

Bacchus said:
Huh???
Draw us a diagram or restate.

The normal anchor ratios stated are Length of rode over distance from bow roller to bottom (water depth + HT of bow above water)

So... 1:1 = vertical
5:1 = L of rode = 5x (depth + HT of bow)

Don

To me - 1:1 represents some angle. Rode vertical (absolutely straight down; i.e 100% plumb) off bow to water/anchor position... I call 1:0

Nomad Willy · Nov 9, 2015

Art I thought so too but that's not the case.

I was convinced of it but now can't get my head around it. If 3-1 is 90 feet out and 30' down. 1-1 is length of rode 30' and depth 30'. Straight up and down rode. You can't have 0 unless the boat is submerged up to it's bow roller in the sea bottom. My whole anchor scope concept is scrambled now.

It's the length of the rode and the depth. A vertical rode ready for weighing is 1-1. I had always thought 1-1 was 30' horizontal distance and 30' deep. The distance (horizontally) from the bow roller to the anchor is not considered at all. Horizontal distance is expereesd in the length of the rode deployed. I had always thought of 1-1 as 30' horizontal and 30' deep .. or a 45degree rode. Chapman describes it as 30' of rode and 30' deep. I don't like it either.

Fortress Anchor Retrival

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