Mystery Oil

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Phill Fill,
Sure Marine suggested we burn kerosene as our Wabasto was so crudded up from burning diesel. So I replumed a dedicated kerosene tank in the boat. Was it all for nothing? You say you've burned hundreds of gallons of diesel and it burns clean.
 
The trend towards cleaner fuels and bio diesel for improved emissions has created a very large body of science and testing protocols particularly in CA under the CARB banner. My first involvement with CARB was nearly 25 years ago when purchasing tens of thousands of gallons per month of diesel fuel for a gold mining operation.

CARB is nothing if not thorough in diesel fuel testing and compliance. They are the group that busted VW. Anyway, back to biodiesel. CARB found that when performing their test for bio diesel fuel that nitrous oxides were significantly higher when compared to standard Ultra Low Sulfur Fuels. Additives closed the gap. A perusal of the CARB website or Internet will show this study (July 2013) and others using ASTM and CARB guidelines for diesel fuel compliance.

Point being, diesel fuel additives and derived benefits are a science with established procedures not associated with seller hype and dock talk. To be noted in these types of studies, some additives result in non compliant fuel and are illegal. Of course this would never be the case with MMO. :whistling:
 
Phill Fill,
Sure Marine suggested we burn kerosene as our Wabasto was so crudded up from burning diesel. So I replumed a dedicated kerosene tank in the boat. Was it all for nothing? You say you've burned hundreds of gallons of diesel and it burns clean.


The newer low sulfur burns cleaner. The old high sulfur did smoke and smell.
 
Tom,
I was wondering when you'd say something significant.
As to Mystery oil it's a mystery. Designed that way.

But I suspect that it really does make a good cutting oil. Why that is (if it is) is also a mystery.
 
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As far as using fuel lube additives, keep in mind that there are two general classes of injection systems where this matters: Most cars and pickups and some smaller diesels use fuel as a lubricant in the injection pump. CAV, Bosch VE, Stanadyne, 3208, anything common rail. Fuel lube matters there, but it is debatable how much. Other engines like Cummins with inline inj pumps, anything with cam operated injectors such as Detroit, 3116/3126, QSM, bigger Volvo and Lehmans have lube oil in the guts of the inj pump or injection hardware.

The only thing being fuel lubed on these is the plunger/barrel and the injector nozzle valve. These components are not very sensitive to fuel lubricity.

So if you have an engine with oil lubed injection hardware, don't worry about fuel lubricity.

If you have a fuel lubed pump, it can matter. I have a VW diesel car with a VE pump, supposedly sensitive, but I just run pump diesel and not worry about it. My choice. Pump has not failed in 15yr/230k miles so I guess pump fuel is good enough.

In years in the business, I have only seen a few failures of injection pumps due to lubricity. Most were Cat 3208's with ground down cams in the pump, and a couple CAV pumps.
 
R
The only thing being fuel lubed on these is the plunger/barrel and the injector nozzle valve. These components are not very sensitive to fuel lubricity.

So if you have an engine with oil lubed injection hardware, don't worry about fuel lubricity.

I am trying to wind down my participation in TF but when I see something like this I feel something should be said.

I think the quote above is extremely bad advice, at least for the FL120 and engines with similar jerk-injection systems. I have read a lot about the care and feeding of these engines over the last 17 years since we have two of them in our 1973 cabin cruiser. I've also talked to people in the UK with long careers in maintaining, repairing and overhauling the Ford of England diesels that are the base engines for the Lehman marinizations.

And everything I've read and been told says that fuel lubricity is absolutely critical to the longevity of this type of injection system.

Lube oil, either in the pump sump on the FL120 or fed from the engine on the FL135, is there ONLY to lubricate the pump's drive mechanism. It has no role whatsoever in the lubrication of the fuel injection components themselves. The shots of fuel that are sent by the pump to the injectors are created by the action of the plungers in their bores which have extremely tight tolerances in order to create the very high injection pressures that are required for the engine to operate correctly.

The only thing combatting the wear of the plungers and the bore walls is the lubricity in the fuel. Without sufficient lubricity the plungers and bore walls will experience accelerated wear which in turn will result in lower injection pressures and increased fuel leakdown into the oil sump below. Diluting the lube oil in the bottom of the FL120's injection pump will reduce its effectiveness as a lubricant which is why the FL120 has an injection pump oil change interval of 50 hours.

Gradual plunger and bore wear is the nature of this particular beast. Eventually the wear will begin to affect the injection system and the engine's performance will begin to degrade. The cure is to overhaul the pump, an expensive proposition.

So the goal is to put as much time as possible between "now" and the arrival of "eventually."

Making sure the fuel going through the pump has sufficient lubricity is a key way to do this. Remember, this engine and its injection syatem were designed in the late 1950s to run on diesel fuel with 1950s characteristics.

Whether or not today's diesel fuel contains sufficient lubricity for these engines' old-style jerk-injection components is a matter of debate. I've seen or heard directly more commentary from people in the diesel engine industry that says it doesn't than says it does but neither position changes the engine's requirement for it.

We use a fuel lubricity additive for our two FL120s that was recommended by several people we know in the marine diesel industry when we bought the boat in 1998. Is it helping? Don't know. But based on the performance of the engines over the last 17 years it certainly isn't hurting.

What I do know is that anyone who claims that fuel lubricity should not be a concern to people with jerk-injection engines like the FL120 is someone who's not familiar with the characteristics and components of this type of injection system.

If one is interested in learning how the jerk-injection system used on engines like the FL120 works a good place to start is Nigel Calder's diesel engine book. There is a lot of other excellent information out there on the care and feeding of these types of engines if one knows how to look for it, and there are still people in the UK with an intimate knowledge of these engines based on their working with them during the engines' heyday if one is fortunate enough to meet them.
 
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Marin- My point is that the fuel lubed injection pumps such as CAV, Bosch VE, Stanadyne, 3208 and CR are much more sensitive to lubricity than the ones with only plungers, barrels and nozzles exposed.

So if the more critical class lives ok on pump fuel, then the latter class should be ok. And experience has supported that.

In 20yrs, I have seen zero worn out plungers and barrels. Not a common thing.

I do not think it is bad advice to run a Lehman on straight pump fuel.
 
I do not think it is bad advice to run a Lehman on straight pump fuel.

Of course it's not. The vast majority of Lehmans spend most of not all their lives running on straight diesel with no extra lubricant additives added to the fuel. And they run for thousands and thousands of hours.
 
In 20yrs, I have seen zero worn out plungers and barrels. Not a common thing.

I do not think it is bad advice to run a Lehman on straight pump fuel.

If current diesel fuel has sufficient lubricity for the old Simms/CAV/Minemec in-line jerk injection pumps, that's fine. A lot of people in the industry don't seem to think it does and so advise using a lubricity additive. Other people think the makeup of today's fuel is fine as-is. I don't know either way so have chosen to follow the advice of people in the engine industry who in my opinion have a great deal of credibility.

My comment on bad advice was not about whether or not to use additives but the notion that people with this type of pump have no need to be concerned about lubricity. They most definitely do.

As for not seeing any worn out plungers and bores, that just means you haven't seen any. From what the folks with far more experience with these engines here and in the UK than anyone on this forum have told me and from what I've read about these engines over the years, it's the number one cause of a Simms/CAV/Minemec jerk-injection pump needing an overhaul.
 
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i Only use Marvel Mystery Oil to help free up stuck valves, lifters and rings in engines that have sat for awhile. Diesels will burn it when squirted into the intake to give dry cylinders and rings a bit of extra oil to seal when turning over. Other than that, it doesn't do much. It's good for getting old engines going and kinda flushing out the old oil and crud. Then change oil and get back on a normal lube and fuel schedule. I've done this with many gas and diesel engines over the years. Regular use of MMO once up and running regularly doesn't do anything that I've seen.

Kevin
 
Once again..whose experts are correct?

And what are the numbers of the vast majority of actual user failures?

2nd hand reporting or the word of someone who has established a pretty good rep on these matters?

The again, TF is really only for entertainment because all posts are suspect and really need in depth investigation beyond...:D

Based on the issues with my recently overhauled injection pump...I think I will add lubricity improves occasionally and try to do better but I think I lean towards the Ski truth than the second hand truth....as I have been advised right here on TF.
 
i Only use Marvel Mystery Oil to help free up stuck valves, lifters and rings in engines that have sat for awhile. Diesels will burn it when squirted into the intake to give dry cylinders and rings a bit of extra oil to seal when turning over. Other than that, it doesn't do much. It's good for getting old engines going and kinda flushing out the old oil and crud. Then change oil and get back on a normal lube and fuel schedule. I've done this with many gas and diesel engines over the years. Regular use of MMO once up and running regularly doesn't do anything that I've seen.:thumb::thumb:

Kevin

Now we are taking!! I use SeaFoam in the fuel two cap full per 20 gallons and a pint of MMO in the base towards the engine oil change point. :ermm::whistling:
Al -Ketchikan
 
Once again..whose experts are correct?

Then again, TF is really only for entertainment because all posts are suspect and really need in depth investigation beyond...:D

Absolutely right on the money.

Our boat is going on 43 years old now and while it was well made at the outset to say it has had its share of problems during the 17 years we've owned it so far would be an understatement. In fact it is currently sitting in the yard for the second time in an ongoing effort to diagnose and fix a fairly serious packing gland problem on the starboard shaft.

But I have never been compelled to bring up any of the issues we've had with the boat over the years on this forum because I know all I would get would be amateur guesses, opinions, armchair theories and incorrect information. Instead we have built up over the years a network of experienced, credible people, most of them long-time professionals, in every aspect of knowledge as we've come to need it with regards to power and drive train, electronics, electrical, mechanical, etc. systems. Most of them are local to the Puget Sound area but a couple are in England.

So, for example, when I got a call from the yard today telling me what they have found and what their recommended course of action is, I then called a good friend who's been in the marine power, drive train, and generator industry for many decades and knows more about these subjects than God and ran the yard's findings and recommendation past him. I knew what I would get was something I could count on as being objective and correct.

So you're right on the money, Psneeld, with regards to your entertainment statement. This forum is certainly that.

And while I may pass on information I've learned either from direct experience or from sources I consider credible, I do so with the expectation that nobody will be fool enough to act on what I write without checking it with their own network of experts first.

Because building up a network of "experts" is like everything else having to do with people. It requires the ability to judge another person based on a whole lot of factors from the way they talk to the way they act to even their body language. And you can't do that on the internet where people are just words on a page.
 
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Now we are taking!! I use SeaFoam in the fuel two cap full per 20 gallons and a pint of MMO in the base towards the engine oil change point. :ermm::whistling:
Al -Ketchikan

I use Seafoam as a major jolt-factor... one can to about 20 gallons. Also like to really-jolt things with Berryman B-12 Chemtool




Toluene (in Chemtool) works wonders for cleaning things up!

Toluene - Wikipedia
 
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The trouble with experts either on the internet or at a local shop or marina...you do have to know enough to know if they are truly experts.

And I would say there are many posters here that are truly experts on many subjects, few on boating but there are those too. After verifying many posts by some that seem to ring true.....I would accept their info on part with off site ones equally.

Even the off board experts need to be verified, so I see little difference.
 
The big hassle is some of the folks on this board simply bought a boat , with no boating experience , no boating background and little boating experience.

They ask to solve problems , and hopefully the answers the receive get filtered by others on the board .

EG Sealants,,,, there are usually enough comments on weather to glue it up with 5200 or assemble it with say Dolphinite for the person to get a grasp on the huge differences in sealants.

Free advice is indeed worth what you pay for it ,

BUT its better than guessing or even worse having to pay for someones guess, ask Janice. .
,
 
BUT its better than guessing or even worse having to pay for someones guess, ask Janice. .
,

And has been for lots of people here including myself.

I wouldn't waste my time here if it was only entertainment....that might mean I don't have much in the way of a life.

I live at a marina, near a boat ramp, and assistance tow...boating "entertainment" in real life isn't far away..no need for electronic entertainment here......
 
I wouldn't waste my time here if it was only entertainment....that might mean I don't have much in the way of a life.

I live at a marina, near a boat ramp, and assistance tow...boating "entertainment" in real life isn't far away..no need for electronic entertainment here......

Agreed, in principal!

Reason I enjoy discussing and leaning from issues of many types on TF; boating issues being the majority:

1. There is a well rounded group of intelligent eclectic contributors here to maintain marine things interesting enough to keep my learning curve still on the upswing.

2. I enjoy being able to place my points on issues with others' points usually well stated for my learning experience.

3. It's fun to explore boating parameters with other seasoned mariners who know things I don't.

4. Newbies to the boating world need a bunch of "old salts" such as we who are at least somewhat experienced to help "launch" their pleasure-boat-joy life encounters.

I doubt I'd have had band-width (or ample desire) to start full scale pleasure boating in my 60's (or even 50's / 40's) without having been amply trained in boating from early age. That said; TF's seasoned boating contributors provide opportunity for nearly any age person to "dive" into boating with knowledge that nearly any question they have can and mostly will be quickly addressed my knowledgeable boaters on TF.

In a sense we act as teachers and guidance counselors to newbie pleasure-boat enthusiasts in all age groups (i.e., those already having or wanting to get into accommodating area cruisers up to and including ocean crossers - not so much ski boats).

Happy TF Daze- Art :D
 
I use Seafoam as a major jolt-factor... one can to about 20 gallons. Also like to really-jolt things with Berryman B-12 Chemtool




Toluene (in Chemtool) works wonders for cleaning things up!

Toluene - Wikipedia


Just by toluene at your local hardware store and bypass the mark up you pay when you buy the Berryman product.

Toluene and Xylene make great octane boosters at around a 10% ratio with gas. As well as fuel systems cleaners.
 
Just by toluene at your local hardware store and bypass the mark up you pay when you buy the Berryman product.

Toluene and Xylene make great octane boosters at around a 10% ratio with gas. As well as fuel systems cleaners.

I did - till CA outlawed the sale of toluene. Some how Berryman can still have it in their Chem Tool mix??? Only product of any sort I can locate here that still has toluene included.

In Maine, early 1970's, while building new FRP boats in what was then titled Maine Ship Builders, we used toluene by the 55 gal drum. That's when I learned its powers.
 
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I did - till CA outlawed the sale of toluene. Some how Berryman can still have it in their Chem Tool mix??? Only product of any sort I can locate here that still has toluene included.

I'd ship you some. But I'm sure that would result in a higher prison sentence then if I was shipping you drugs. :D
 
Once again..whose experts are correct?

And what are the numbers of the vast majority of actual user failures?

2nd hand reporting or the word of someone who has established a pretty good rep on these matters?

The again, TF is really only for entertainment because all posts are suspect and really need in depth investigation beyond...:D

Based on the issues with my recently overhauled injection pump...I think I will add lubricity improves occasionally and try to do better but I think I lean towards the Ski truth than the second hand truth....as I have been advised right here on TF.

The only difference here is Ski IS the expert...and not second hand. I would take what he says to the bank....literally....especially when it comes to Yanmar and Cummins.
 
Everybody here constantly evaluates who the experts are and needs no one to tell them who it is. My evaluations have been all over the map through the years as people reveal more and more about themselves and what they know.

And as for what is fact that's all over the map too. But most of us have a well established opinion about what is fact and that often differs from member to member. Case in point the adding lube to diesel fuel thread. Lots of different opinions. Even the things many of us think of as facts become opinions on a forum. So it's constantly evaluating information to form new opinions or confirm those established.

But if your'e science minded the opinions can be turned into facts or no w the application of lots of objectivity. Not exactly rare on a forum but certianly not found in abundance either.
 
Depends who is definining "facts".

In the lubricity debate...there are those that add and swear by it because they never have problems with their engines or some I'll defined issue goes away.

There are those that don't use additives and swear by it because their engine lasts just as long as the adders.

Neither set of data is anything more than opinion.

When a marine mechanic, engineer states he has only seen xxx, then if I trust that person...my guess it would weigh more heavily than a recrational boaters opinion. Especially because how can a recreational boater express their experts opinion unless their expert is named and investigated, then compared in weight by the masses.

Hey take an experts opinion...this is all just entertainment...and I am not that expert.....
 
The only difference here is Ski IS the expert...and not second hand. I would take what he says to the bank....literally....especially when it comes to Yanmar and Cummins.

That may be for those engines but obviously not for FL120s.

Psneeld: Even the off board experts need to be verified, so I see little difference.
I think there is a huge difference. Contrary to what some others have said, I do not regard anyone on TF as an expert on boating subjects simply for the fact that I have no way to vette them or judge if they know what they're talking about or are just blowing smoke or armchair-theorizing.

And given the kinds of responses I have seen over the years to boating topics that I do happen to know about--- admittedly there aren't very many of those, but there are a few--- I am pretty convinced my approach to the forum is the safest one: great entertainment but not anything I would ever actually trust or act on without checking with known (to me) credible sources.

Psneeld is absolutely correct; just because someone is a "professional" (which by definition simply means they charge for their work) does not mean they are any good at what they do. People one meets in person have to be judged very carefully before one accepts them as credible sources. The only way that can be done, however, is to do it in person.

Psneeld is also correct in that "advice" on this forum should always be checked with other sources, ideally known credible sources, before being acted on. I see that as a waste of time which is why I put no stock in the "advice" I see posted here on various topics. Since I'm going to check it all anyway with the network of credible sources I've created over a lot of years, why not simply go to those sources to start with? Which is what I do.

The number one downside of the internet is that it gives automatic credibility to everything that's on it simply by virtue of it being in print. Because humans have not yet evolved--- and perhaps they never will--- past the "if it's in print it must be right" mentality.

The initial reaction to something a person sees in print is to believe it. Depending on that person's education, knowledge, experience, logic and common sense that person may immediately dismiss what they read as being BS. Or know to check it out more thoroughly before accepting it as fact. But the first reaction is to give it credibility simply by virtue of it being in print.

In the old days when print meant books, magazines and newspapers giving credibility to something because it was in print had a lot of validity to it. Books, magazines and newspapers have quite a process that is gone through before they are published. More than one set of eyes are cast over what's been written before it's put out there for everyone to read. This doesn't keep bad information from being published but it's a control step designed to prevent bad information from getting out there unless printing bad information is the objective.

This all disappeared with the internet. Even the much vaunted Wikipedia cannot be assumed to be correct because there is no truly effective check on what's printed there. On the topic of the company I work for and its products alone I have come across all kinds of flat out inaccuracies.

And when you get to things like public forums like this, there is no credibility control whatsoever.

But..... there is still that inherent tendency to believe what's in print simply because it's in print. So you get all sorts of knee-jerk reactions to stuff that isn't even true, decisions being made based on stuff that isn't true, people going off in totally the wrong direction following somebody's "advice," and so on. Sometimes the end result has little more consequence than being funny. Other times, the end result can be very serious or even life-threatening.

If one is smart enough to realize this and treats things like this forum as nothing more than an entertaining past-time, fine. No harm done. But as information becomes more and more feelings driven than fact driven--- which is what is happening today across the board--- the consequences will continue to become more and more serious and detrimental.

Humans will eventually realize this but they'll have to burn themselves pretty seriously before they learn not to touch things that are real hot. We're a long way from reaching that point right now.

Which is why I put no stock whatsoever in the content of this forum but I do find it a very entertaining way to take a short break from reality.:)
 
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Fortunately lubricity can be and is measured, studies and findings are published. Further, refining and plant operations rely upon sophisticated control strategies to ensure QA and QC guidelines are routinely achieved.

This is not good news to the aftermarket purveyors who openly critique, to sell their own stuff, and state how lousy a job the refiners are doing to ensure lubricity ranges are met.

Having been on the receiving end of tankers, rail cars and ships when samples of incoming were taken, the concern was water more than any other issue.

Can't recall when lubricity was raised as a red flag. We did get umpire samples at times from both the refinery and shipper to ensure clean transport tanks.
 
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Greetings,
I've never expected anyone to take my suggestions as any sort of expertise nor apply them without corroboration. I have ONE field where I and others consider me to be an expert but in my 8+ years of membership, that particular field has never come up that I can recall.
 
13,222 short breaks :blush::blush::blush:


Yep, since 2007. I dash off these stupid posts-- even the long ones--- in just a few minutes, usually while I'm waiting for a computer to render something out like right now, and then get on with something meaningful. Some people I know like to look at YouTube videos for breaks from what they're doing, others read the on-line newpapers or look at magazines or whatever. I like to look through TF as it's entertaining reading with sometimes nice photos.

Since 2007 I have gotten exactly one piece of truly useful information from TF and that's the perfect product to use to clean groundpower cables and fenders. That and Eric's series of posts about his journey from Alaska back here to Washington. That was very cool.

Otherwise it's kind of like watching Family Guy.:)
 
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Greetings,
I've never expected anyone to take my suggestions as any sort of expertise nor apply them without corroboration. I have ONE field where I and others consider me to be an expert but in my 8+ years of membership, that particular field has never come up that I can recall.

Piano player at a house of ill repute?


Oops, sorry. That's my dream occupation.
 
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