What's this Hatt doing on my pulpit?

Last month we anchored in SF Bay for a weekend of Blue Angels performances at the annual SF Fleet Week. Thurs and Fri shows were enjoyable and uneventful. Then there was the Saturday show!

We were anchored near a 65 Hatteras during the airshow. The afternoon ebb was flowing with 10-15 kt winds in the opposite direction out of the WSW. We were anchored west of Alcatraz Island for protection from the current, but near the north end and experienced some occasional swings due to eddy currents and winds. For the most part, we were lying on a westerly heading into the wind with him located about 50 ft north of us. We were close enough to talk to each other about our proximity and made adjustments to rode so we were both pleased with the positioning.

During the Blue Angels performance, my wife called me to the bow "right now". The Hatt had drifted west of our position and was now perpendicular to the wind and our alignment into the wind. We were tight on anchor as he drifted slowly into our anchor pulpit. The pulpit poked 2 holes into the masonite panel above his caprail and below his handrail. These holes can be seen in the photo below by the black arrow. Wave action while coupled forced my bow pulpit to pop vertically and pulled a couple lag bolts loose from the top of the pulpit.



I was on the bow as they were closing in within a few feet of our bow, but I was unable and unwilling to place my hand in the boat's path to release the anchor rode from its cleat. Once the boat's slide into us stopped, I was able to release the rode, start engines and back off from the Hatt. No further damage was incurred during the 'uncoupling'.

Here are some shots of the damage:

Pulpit, rub rail and anchor roller damage. The bolts on top of the pulpit have pulled loose from the vertical loads.





Caprail

Stbd:


Port:


Underside of pulpit - cracked



Fortunately, the other guy's insurance has stepped up to the plate and accepted liability. Now the repairs begin.

The yard wants to remove the bow rail and 30" of caprail from the pulpit to the first scarf to inspect for fiberglass damage. My first impression is to pull the windlass and pulpit first and have a gander underneath.

Here's a couple pics of what it's supposed to look like. Note the 3 lag bolts across the top into the caprail and underlying fiberglass. The stbd and center ones appear to have popped a bit.





If the caprail is just superficially cracked and can be repaired and no damage is apparent or likely under the caprail, I'd rather not have it all removed, replaced and revarnished to match. It should be easy to fix a couple of stripped out lag bolts in a structure that has proven to be 'frangible' yet strong and reliable. I definitely need a new anchor roller and teak pulpit. Also the rubrail is missing a chunk from the bow after the encounter, so I'm expecting a new rubrail.

I want it fixed right, but I'm not real anxious to be out of the water for any longer than necessary. Since I engineered and installed the pulpit and windlass, I have a pretty good feel for its strengths and weaknesses. But sometimes when you're standing this close, you can't see the forest for the trees. What do you guys think? Am I crazy for not letting the yard and insurance company take it apart to see if it's damaged beyond a stripped lag bolt or two?

I see your point. But I think I'd let them do what they want just to cover all the bases since you are not paying for it.

I'd also counter sink the new lag bolts enought to bung and varnish over the top of them for a cleaner look.

Capt.Bill11 said:

I'd also counter sink the new lag bolts enought to bung and varnish over the top of them for a cleaner look.

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I'd like that too!

How did you figure out who is responsible? Because he drifted into you? Does it matter who anchored first or whether you were displaying the correct day shape?

MYTraveler said:

How did you figure out who is responsible? Because he drifted into you? Does it matter who anchored first or whether you were displaying the correct day shape?

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Since this is being handled responsibly by all parties, I don't want this to become a blame game. Suffice to say the evidence was never in dispute. I can't say enough about the handling of this by this guy's insurance company.

Sometimes, ..it happens!

Capt.Bill11 said:

I see your point. But I think I'd let them do what they want just to cover all the bases since you are not paying for it.

I'd also counter sink the new lag bolts enought to bung and varnish over the top of them for a cleaner look.

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I agree with Capt Bill. The fact they feel the need to dig deeper and the insurance company is ok with it indicates to me there's a possibility of hidden damage. Even if the risk in 10%, it's not one I'd want to take.

This is the main reason I don't like bow pulpits.
Too easily damaged.
Supprised it dosn't happen more often .. maybe it does.

I would let the insurance company evaluate it because at the end of the day you will be asked by the insurance company to sign off on the repair. If the insurance company does not do the evaluation they request and you sign off on the repair and later find that the repair was incomplete then that will be on your nickel. Just saying from a view several thousand miles away. Best of luck with the issue, I hope it goes well for you.

If there was no insurance, I guess I could see doing a more minimal repair. Since it wasn't your fault, they are paying, and you're going to loose some boating time anyway, leave no stone unturned. Make it like new again and have no doubts about what you may have missed.

Ted

Al: I Would let my insurance company know what happened since they have an interest in your boat. I would also qualify the yard that is going to do the work.
A yard damaged our boat and our insurance paid and they would subrogate against the yards insurance company.

If nothing else, maybe get a hold of Peter, Pau Hana

Since the insurance company is willing to foot the bill I would let them do whatever exploratory work and repairs that they deem necessary. If you don't let them do it now it could become much harder to get them to pay if damage is found down the road.

You must notify your insurance company and they will deal with the other company. At some point if you sell the boat the broker will require a written statement, at least mine did , of any crash damage. You will need to show proper and complete repair.

bayview said:

You must notify your insurance company and they will deal with the other company. At some point if you sell the boat the broker will require a written statement, at least mine did , of any crash damage. You will need to show proper and complete repair.

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Important point as you were in an allision and that is now part of the history of the boat so evidence that it was checked carefully for any other possible damage becomes valuable. It also protects you from a buyer coming back on you with some future problem.

I agree with everybody. Let them do what the want to do. One of my previous Corvettes had a scratch on the front bumper cover. I wanted the absolute minimum done to fix it(minimal paint work). The body guy did exactly what I wished. He basically spot painted and "tried" to blend the clear coat(instead of his recommendation of painting the whole bumper cover). You cannot blend clear coat....it becomes cloudy around the edges. So in a certain light you see a smear where the repair was done.

My point here is he "wanted" to do it right. I wanted what you are wanting....minimal repair. I got exactly what I asked for. And it wasn't the correct way to handle it!!!!

John's post summarized the issue best. Years ago when I directly interacted with customers it was the ones "most involved" that where the least satisfied, the folks that educated themselves yet chose not to interfere with the process that came away the most satisfied. Basically let pros do what pros do is the best advice, if not DIY and get it over with.

manyboats said:

This is the main reason I don't like bow pulpits.
Too easily damaged.
Supprised it dosn't happen more often .. maybe it does.

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And if there isn't a bow pulpit, then what gets damaged? The bow? I look at the pulpit in this case like a battering ram he had set up in case anyone approached in a manner that would damage the boat.

The bow should be able to handle harbor maneuvering bumps far better than some boards screwed to the cap rail or to a post that's lightly fastened to the deck. In the process of taking side loads a lot of twisting forces can/will do considerable damage to the cap rail or/and deck.

It would be nice if they were built as a weak link and could take a side load w/o damaging the rest of the boat. But then one would build in a weakness that would give way in a storm while at anchor. Many boats that sail a lot take heavy side loads as well as vertical loads in demanding anchoring situations.

I think the best bet is an anchor that rides w it's shank through a hole in the bow on CL right about deck level. Then light collisions to the bow would probably just be paint smudges.

Thanks for all the advice here, guys. I'm glad I posted this for your counsel. Tomorrow is the haulout. Pics to follow.

You hooked him well, if you could have landed him he was yours to keep.

bayview said:

You must notify your insurance company and they will deal with the other company. At some point if you sell the boat the broker will require a written statement, at least mine did , of any crash damage. You will need to show proper and complete repair.

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Yes, I have been in touch with my insurance company regularly throughout this phase. Now that his insurance company is stepping up to the plate, subrogation should not be necessary.

Al why didn't the guy start his engines to take the strain off his anchor, and retrieve it?

That sucks but at least his insurance is steeping up to the plate, good luck with the repairs and I hope their speedy.

Sorry for the damage you sustained Al. Tough considering you maintain your boat well.
In my experience culpable third party`s insurers are unlikely to go beyond what are necessary repairs (though maybe their insured is encouraging them to do it well), if they think something needs checking out, best to let them. You`ll probably be required to sign a release at some stage, so be sure it gets fixed properly before you do.

Who is doing the repairs?

Has the insurance given you an appraisal and settlement for damage? If that is the case make sure you get fixed cost for the repair from the yard. Also get a time commitment. If you can see under the bow pulpit and its unpainted glass in the anchor locker, you should be able to any fracture that is structural. I think I would probably argue to remove the pulpit and rebed all bolts and lags on their dime, then there is no doubt as to the condition of the pulpit and deck. You really don't want to introduce any future water into deck coring. Hey the Salmon are running, you can always come up and borrow my dingy.

Moonstruck said:

Al why didn't the guy start his engines to take the strain off his anchor, and retrieve it?

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I was tight on the rode and his boat had drifted west causing his rode to go slack and drift in front of us before the wind caught him broadside to us. From there, he drifted east with the wind into our pulpit.

BruceK said:

In my experience culpable third party`s insurers are unlikely to go beyond what are necessary repairs (though maybe their insured is encouraging them to do it well), if they think something needs checking out, best to let them. You`ll probably be required to sign a release at some stage, so be sure it gets fixed properly before you do.

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Scary said:

Has the insurance given you an appraisal and settlement for damage? If that is the case make sure you get fixed cost for the repair from the yard. Also get a time commitment. If you can see under the bow pulpit and its unpainted glass in the anchor locker, you should be able to any fracture that is structural. I think I would probably argue to remove the pulpit and rebed all bolts and lags on their dime, then there is no doubt as to the condition of the pulpit and deck. You really don't want to introduce any future water into deck coring.

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We got the boat hauled and the pulpit and windlass removed to have a look underneath. The 3 lag bolts across the top of the pulpit were all deformed laterally from an side or fore/aft load. All three still retained their grip and came out uneventfully.



The area beneath the pulpit revealed damage to the caprail only. No disturbance to the gelcoat or sealant under the caprail. At the minimum, there are 3 caprail cracks here emanating from each bolt hole which will require repair.





The pulpit crack was apparent before the removal, but its length was revealed after removal. This shot doesn't show it well but the crack continues to the right of the plugged hole for several inches.



Now I await the detailed repair estimate. I'm going to insist on Epifane's Clear Gloss Varnish as that's what is used on all brightwork. Also, I need to specify the best sealant for the reassembly. Originally, I used silicone sealant which I now think was a poor choice, but disassembly revealed no water leaks. I am considering butyl tape, but am open to SikaFlex or other recommendations. When I mentioned the issue to the guy removing the pulpit, I cringed a bit when he said they typically use 5200 and it's "the industry standard". I want a good sealant with moderate adhesive bond. I want to be able to remove the pulpit in the future without damage to any components like we were able to do with the silicone.

The silicone needs to be removed completely to to allow proper adhesion and I'm open to suggestions on what's the best product for the job. What say you? Is butyl tape a good candidate for an application like this? SikaFlex?

She's going to need bottom paint and, while she's out, new zincs. The rub rail is missing a chunk at the bow after the allision, so I'm expecting a replacement. All thru hulls looks good. I'll check bonding continuity soon.

For as long as I've owned the boat, the swimstep has always flexed at the outer panels and I never knew why...but now I do. My step is formed from 3 panels - port, center and stbd. The outer panels are held in place with SS pins and retaining rings, not SS screws, washers and nuts. For some reason, the center panel is held in place rigidly with nuts and bolts. I will replace all swimstep hardware with new SS bolts, washers and fiberlock nuts.

It's still strange for me to see my boat on jacks. It's not something we regularly do in these parts since we can boat year round. Incidentally, the bottom growth was very minimal according to the yard guys. The paint was in good shape, but is ready for renewal. It actually looked better until it was pressure washed, then it started flaking off in large, thick pieces. I think if I had left it in, it would have easily gone another year or two with regular bottom cleaning. They yard guys attributed that longevity to a combination of fresh/salt water trips and regular use. They said that once it's pressure washed, it's bound to need repainting. Fact or fiction?

My cap rail has Sika Flex.

I think you'll need to get all traces of the silicone for adhesion of the new stuff.

On my above water assemblies, we use 4000 instead of 5200. Easier to remove but seals well. Silicone is fine for places that won't suffer from water intrusion, but then what do you need sealant there for anyway.

Regarding bottom paint, so much depends on the type of bottom paint. My charter boat was power washed when hauled out for the season. We will touch up the wear areas and redo from the boot stripe to below the surface next spring. But then it will only be in the water for 6 months before it gets hauled for the winter again.

Ted

manyboats said:

My cap rail has Sika Flex.

I think you'll need to get all traces of the silicone for adhesion of the new stuff.

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Any idea which Sika Flex is best for sealant with lower adhesion?

Here's another pic I forgot to include.

So sorry for the troubles - while the repairs are underway why not take a walk on the Camino and leave your regrets on the rock pile Twas a great 300 mile trek.