Whale watchers down

From the article linked to above:
"He arrived on scene to see nine people in a life-raft, several more on the rocks and the ship itself all but gone except for the bow. "


One would think that a skipper who'd been operating in those waters for as many years as he had would have known where the rocks were and would have stayed away from them. Just speculating.

This was a former seiner that was converted over to a tour boat. It looked to me that it was quite narrow and very high for the length. Stability might have been lost in the conversation. It did however go through a Transport Canada inspection. Not sure if this included stability testing. All speculation right now. Did they high centre it on a rock or did it just roll over in a beam sea? We will have to await the report.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

TSB has released some preliminary material. Most of the passengers and crew were on the top deck on the port side, a wave came from the starboard quarter causing the vessel to broach. Looking like a stability issue.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

JDCAVE,
Never seen a shallow draft and narrow seiner before. Judging from the pic of the fwd section mostly vertical in the water.

Correction: earlier reports indicated the Leviathan II was a former seiner. They now report that it was originally a passenger vessel for a logging company. They added an observation deck. That makes a lot more sense to me as the wheelhouse looked nothing like any seine vessel I've ever seen.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

AusCan has nailed what happened.
This boat was modified almost 20 yrs ago and got away with it for a long time. The skipper should have known the characteristics of his boat well enough to keep from getting broadside to the waves and allowing most of the movable weight to go onto the upper side all at once.
TSB will rule when they get all the facts, but we may never get an official version of what happened that is any better than our current best guess.

Some thoughts from Tad....

Low Tide | Yacht Designer Tad Roberts' Web Log

Conrad said:

Some thoughts from Tad....

Low Tide | Yacht Designer Tad Roberts' Web Log

Click to expand...

Some more here

Tofino whale-watching ship's twin shows extent of modifications - British Columbia - CBC News

Nice to see Tad Roberts quoted in the piece. Thanks, Craig.

another tale with not many facts to chew on yet...


passed stability...but what are the requirements and what happened to prove the testers wrong????...more info needed and just thinking it looks top heavy doesn't really prove that it is.

This is a high-profile event and there will be a very complete investigation with a public report published eventually. But it takes time, a great deal of time to get every fact right. For instance I would hope there's now, or soon to be, an instrumented buoy at the capsize location measuring wave heights. This could teach us a lot, or it might be a dead end. There could have been other factors, undiscovered flooding, a fuel problem, or something heavy shifting as the boat heeled. We don't know and won't know until the report is published sometime next year.

Exactly..but the TFer armchair quarterbacks with opinions and no practical experience will jump all over it ad nauseum....


Like all the other over commented on maritime accidents...I'll wait till the final investigative results before making a fool of myself.

I agree to wait and see the results. Unfortunately, we frequently receive the shocking events because they draw attention. The news is geared toward the shocking; unfortunately, not the complete story.

psneeld said:

Exactly..but the TFer armchair quarterbacks with opinions and no practical experience will jump all over it ad nauseum....

Like all the other over commented on maritime accidents...I'll wait till the final investigative results before making a fool of myself.

Click to expand...

I'm probably one of those arm chair quarterback to which you refer...

I don't mean to quarterback but rather to understand, so please forgive me. I will always remember the "Cap Rouge II" incident. The owner of this vessel was a personal colleague from the fishing industry and in fact was in my employ with the Pacific Salmon Commission at the time the Cap Rouge went down. He was the skipper of another vessel when his daughter and grandchildren drowned in the Cap Rouge incident. His son-in-law was the skipper of the vessel. The Cap Rouge II incident was found to be a stability issue and in particular the "free surface effect" being implicated as contributory.

We'd all be fools if we felt we were immune to this outcome, because I certainly don't feel my vessel is immune from a similar incident. Discussion at this time certainly makes me aware the limitations of both myself and my vessel.

The Cap Rouge II report

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/marine/2002/m02w0147/m02w0147.pdf


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

JDCAVE said:

I'm probably one of those arm chair quarterback to which you refer...

I don't mean to quarterback but rather to understand, so please forgive me. I will always remember the "Cap Rouge II" incident. The owner of this vessel was a personal colleague from the fishing industry and in fact was in my employ with the Pacific Salmon Commission at the time the Cap Rouge went down. He was the skipper of another vessel when his daughter and grandchildren drowned in the Cap Rouge incident. His son-in-law was the skipper of the vessel. The Cap Rouge II incident was found to be a stability issue and in particular the "free surface effect" being implicated as contributory.

We'd all be fools if we felt we were immune to this outcome, because I certainly don't feel my vessel is immune from a similar incident. Discussion at this time certainly makes me aware the limitations of both myself and my vessel.

The Cap Rouge II report

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/marine/2002/m02w0147/m02w0147.pdf


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Click to expand...

Don't take me TOO wrong...

I have a bit of safety training and teaching experience in a wide variety of hands on operational things involving the maritime environment.

Learning from accidents is a wonderful tool.

But you learn from the final investigation reports...not the initial news reports...they are just too inaccurate to provide much.

There are tens of thousands of accident reports that go over similar and countless other incidents.

There are not too many "NEW" ways to sink a boat or crash a car, train, or airplane. Sure there are always new tidbits...but tiny in comparison to the database of all those who have gone before making the big mistakes.

Instead of posting a "headline" and picking it apart with no real info in yet...those who want to review and learn from those who have screwed the pooch in the past....post old accidents where one or more thorough investigations have been preformed and lots of data is available for review and debate.

Learning from a couple news reports and analysis by a bunch of untrained, uninformed, low experienced armchair quarterbacks from TF is no way to learn.

Post all you want, have whatever opinion you want...but many here sicken me with their "I know what I am doing" attitude.

Every week I go out as an assistance tower and assist those with the same or more experience as the blowhards...or when I was in the USCG I had to call and talk to the relatives of those not coming home with the same experience as most TFers and their false bravado.

Cold hard truth....hate to say it but after not posting for awhile to step back and evaluate...I just can't stand some of the absolute trash posted by some.

Time to reopen the bad boys club, take new members and kick butt and take names....

I am with Jim (jdcave) in that as a "quarterback" I have a similar outlook. I too have a somewhat closer connection to similar events, as this report demonstrates the same sort of happening, and is one that touched someone I knew: Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Marine Investigation Report M97W0236. It would seem that no matter how often these events occur, we don't learn enough from them to prevent their repetition.

Learning something and operating withing those new "learned" tidbits is hard to accomplish no matter what we do....it's like the few times your safety glasses are not with you in the bilge and you drill or grind anyway because it's only for a second and yiuveil, be cafeful.

I read through the seine acvident...and it read like so many accidents.....

Nothing new that I picked up on....bad loading and downfloding...way too many fishing vessel accidents read from similar failures by the crew.

And it is the proper way to learn about marine safety.

Not the same as reading a newspaper or TV report and going in to depth about all the risk management failures of company, captain and crew like some love to do within minutes of reading that flash news piece. That is Monday morning QBing at its worst.

Studying and discussing a marine incident report is a much better and dignified way of discussing the same occurance. Especially when some may still be grieving as the news continues to screw up the news.

While it's a tragedy, I've learned from several scuba diving deaths in our area over the last 40 years, that the press in general is clueless when it comes to accident reporting. Have had the misfortune to do several body recoveries and been interviewed / cross examined by law enforcement. When accident analysis is done properly (unfortunately over and extended period of time) it can be amazing what seemingly insignificant items can be uncovered and prove to be a root cause. As an example, a diver drowned as a result of an excessive overdose of decongestant (he went to sleep underwater). Obviously it took a coroners report with blood analysis to determine that. Wished I had saved all the speculation threads on that accident.

I'll wait for the official report on this one also.

Ted

PSNeeld: This statement I made

JDCAVE said:

TSB has released some preliminary material. Most of the passengers and crew were on the top deck on the port side, a wave came from the starboard quarter causing the vessel to broach. Looking like a stability issue.

Click to expand...

was a paraphrase from this briefing by the TSBC:

""Marc-Andre Poisson, the director of marine investigations with the Transportation Safety Board, released preliminary results of Sunday’s accident that claimed five lives. One passenger is still missing.

“We know that most passengers and crew were on the top deck on the port side … this would have raised the centre of gravity, affecting the vessel’s stability,” he said during a news conference.

“We also know that the sea conditions were such that the wave approached the vessel from the starboard quarter,” he said. “We know the vessel broached and then capsized.”"

00:24-00:50 seconds into this news video:
http://globalnews.ca/news/2303160/c...ve-hits-b-c-tourist-boat-sending-it-over-tsb/

It was not speculation from either me or the news channel. So if you have a problem with what has been presented, it should be with Marc-Andre Poisson, the director of marine investigations with the Transportation Safety Board.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Obviously this is a serious issue with real lives lost. I feel for anyone with a direct connection to people involved with the incident.

Still, as semi-intelligent human beings, we will speculate with whatever facts are available. It's human nature. (well mine anyway)

I don't see anything wrong with speculation, as long as no one suggests it is anything more than just that.

AusCan said:

Obviously this is a serious issue with real lives lost. I feel for anyone with a direct connection to people involved with the incident.

Still, as semi-intelligent human beings, we will speculate with whatever facts are available. It's human nature. (well mine anyway)

I don't see anything wrong with speculation, as long as no one suggests it is anything more than just that.

Click to expand...

But speculate about a TFer's abilities or motives and see how well that works....

AusCan said:

Obviously this is a serious issue with real lives lost. I feel for anyone with a direct connection to people involved with the incident.

Still, as semi-intelligent human beings, we will speculate with whatever facts are available. It's human nature. (well mine anyway)

I don't see anything wrong with speculation, as long as no one suggests it is anything more than just that.

Click to expand...

This is a report from the fishing company we go with from Ucluelet just down the street. These people have gone out from here all there life, out among the rocks and off the coast. Pretty much agrees with what I and some others have said but with much more authority and experience.

Analysis of Tofino boating accident:

Every year we hear of boating accidents, but when there is widespread news coverage, people start to ask more questions. This can be a good thing. Some of you have asked me about the Jamies' Whale watching boat that went down in October and I am sure there are more of you interested in this subject. I thought I would give a little perspective as a mariner who has been spending summers on the water for the past 20 years as a guide.

First, I would like to underline the importance of boat safety and let you know that it is perfectly okay to ask questions before starting a voyage on a boat on any kind of guided trip. Stability of a boat should always be near the top of the list. In rougher weather, vessels with command bridges and second floor decks are always less stable. A boat with most of the weight below the waterline will be stable. In most cases large boats have a second deck, but (1.) if the boat is wide enough and (2.) most of the weight is below deck and (3.) the hull is shaped correctly, there is no problem.

Second, it is important to know the length of time the captain/skipper has been operating on open ocean. We get applications every so often from guys that are brand new to guiding, but have their certification. While I would never consider taking someone who didn't go through the required safety courses, there really is no trade for years experience operating a boat on the west coast.

As with everything in life, common sense should always be employed, no matter what you are told is approved and legal. More investigation is going to happen into the boating accident, but we do know a few things about it:
The Leviathan 2 is a narrow boat by west coast boat standards in comparison with its length. The top deck was added after the original design was made.
There was a 2-3 meter swell offshore which means that in close to shore some of the waves are going to be quite large, considering the build up against the rocks.

The boat was very close to the rocks where there can be a significant buildup of water on larger waves.

The boat was sitting still, broadside to the waves.
All 27 of the passengers on the boat were on the top deck, and all of them were on the opposite side to where the swells were hitting broadside to the boat. That is over 2 tons of weight about 8 feet off the water, creating a compound effect and changing the center of gravity in the boat. This amount of weight on the top deck makes any boat like this unstable.

In this situation, I think it is hard to point too many fingers at Transport Canada since most of the area that the Leviathan 2 runs is protected water and this boat had been running safely for many years. This boat was certified for the west coast and inspected every year--though questions do remain about the addition of the upper deck.

I do think that common sense needs to be applied with any slightly top heavy boat in situations offshore, where swells come in different sizes. It is especially common to get bigger swells in late October. If the boat would not have been stopped close to the rocks, sitting broadside to the waves with 27 people on the opposite side of the boat to where the direction of the swells, there would have been no accident.

Important Questions:
You should know that pleasure boats sink every year off the west coast, mostly with people that do not have the experience or the proper equipment for a large ocean. Often they are in small boats but not always. If going out with friends, it is important to ask about experience and safety equipment.
You should not trust all guided boats keep up to date safety equipment either. Last year one company operating a few boats in Ucluelet did not have any life jackets on board any of their boats during a random Transport Canada stop.
Another question you can ask is to see updated flares and fire extinguishers since they expire every few years. While I don't like to mention these errors, we always have to be prepared and take the proper precautions.

I hope this answers some of your questions and feel free to ask our guides about the safety equipment on board for your trip if they don't talk about it in the introduction to the trip.