Engines

1: I am slowly starting to get my head around the variety of diesels offered on boats (trawlers) manufactured in the last 40-50 years: manufacturers, models, power, aspiration, electronic control or not, fuel consumption rates, transmission options etc. etc..... Emphasis on slowly. Is there a comprehensive comparison/primer out there that anyone knows of?

2: During my "journey" I am becoming aware of matching an engine to a prop. Size, pitch and all that, in relation to a specific boat. Is there a primer out there that puts a lot of the information in one place regarding this subject?

Web, books any help would be appreciated.

Meanwhile I keep reading this forum

Boatdiesel.com is a great trove of info. Cheap at 25 bucks a year.

http://boatdiesel.com/

The Propeller Handbook by Dave Gerr

Oscar:

A couple of books could help with your second question, both by David Gerr: The Nature of Boats and the Propeller Handbook. Neither talk much about engines but do talk about hull design and propeller matching.

Since I can't think of a single book that relates to your first question, let me offer a summary of the evolution of trawler engines:

1. Since you said a 40-50 year time frame lets start with the big iron, slow reving diesel, like maybe the Gardner. Heavy, reasonably fuel efficient, and lasts forever. Makes about 15 hp per liter at less than 2,000 rpm. Unless you are an old time purist a Gardner is probably not for you.

2, Moving up the scale is the normally aspirated, mechanically injected engines of the 70s and 80s like the venerable Perkins 6.354, the Ford Lehman 135 and the Caterpillar 3208. These make their maximum hp at about 2,400 rpm and like to run well below 2,000. Fuel consumption is 16-17 hp per gph. The core engine of this type will last forever but the marine add ons will need servicing and probably replacement to go 10,000 hours. Both were also turbocharged but not high output like #4 below.

A modern variation on this category is the Kubota, Mitsubishi, Izuzu and Yanmar NA engines. They usually are less than 100 hp and are suitable for smaller trawlers. Most do not meet todays emissions regs.

3. A somewhat unique category is the Detroit Diesel because it is two cycle. The 4-53 (no of cylinders and cubic inch displacement per cylinder) was used in the respected Hatteras LRC trawler. These are relatively heavy and make about 16 hp per gph and will also last forever if run at moderate loads. DD also made x-71 and x-92 engines and some trawlers will have the NA 6-71, one of the most popular diesels ever made. Some think that DDs are noisy and often leak oil, but Hatteras owners seem to love them.

4. The all mechanical engines peaked with the Cummins 6BTA, the Yanmar 4LH, 6LP, 6LY among others. These are sophisticated, turbocharged, high output diesels that make 60+ hp per liter and have fuel efficiency in the 18-20 hp per gph range. These will almost always be mated to a semi displacement hull that can use the increased hp. Like the prior category these too can go 10,000 hours if loaded moderately and the marine add ons maintained properly. But alas most do not so they die prematurely either to overloading or a marine add on failure.

Contrary to the old wives tales, these engines can be run slow, down to about 10 hp per liter which will get them up to operating temps. Run at higher rpms every once in a while for ten minutes to blow accumulated soot out.

5. Today's engines are almost all electronic, common rail, turbo charged engines. They produce the same hp as #4 with about the same fuel economy but meet today's emissions regs. For a long range cruiser the vulnerability of the electronics is a concern.

6. The one manufacturer who makes engines today that might satisfy the purist is John Deere. Their engines while mostly turbocharged, common rail are usually slower turning and make less than 40 hp per liter so they are suitable for a displacement hull trawler. Not surprisingly Nordhavn uses JDs.

David

djmarchand said:

Oscar:
Since I can't think of a single book that relates to your first question, let me offer a summary of the evolution of trawler engines:

Click to expand...

David:
I always enjoy what you post, even when you are challenged.
It gives me something to think about, dig into and learn.
Thanks for the time you take.

So, do CAT numbers 31..32..34..etc. follow a chronological progression?
Also I have seen a series of boats with CAT 3116, which I don't see that often. Know anything about them?

IMO unless your building a boat the engines are what they are. Also IMO modern non electronic control 4 strokes from a major maker are preferred.
That gives lots of choices. Further IMO you buy a boat based on the boat and maybe rule out some based on engines.
Most engines will give similar power per fuel used and unless they were always run hard and not cared for will outlast several owners.

A Gardiner will possibly last forever, most failures on them occur because of owners polishing excessively! Idle at 350-400 rpm? Lovely!

I have a 6CTA 8.3 M1 which seems to be a good engine so far...

In my very humble opinion, any engine that has electronic anything on it should not be in a boat. I watched a service tech working on a Yamaha 250 outboard, all he had in his toolbox was a laptop.

I have a friend who towed a 65 foot boat from Port McNeill to Seattle because one engine threw a rod and damaged the electronic box on the other engine so the boat was totally disabled. Twins for maneuvering only?

Give me the mechanical, crude, simple clam-crushers for a boat motor every day.

Its also true about Detroits, they are the noisiest boat engines on the planet; my friend's Tolly with two water lift mufflers is noisier than my Cummins, before I put in a muffler!

Thank you all for taking the time, especially David, that was very helpful. I think I should have made my question a little bit more specific, lol. What I seem to be gravitating towards (as is the Admiral) is mid 80's to early nineties semi displacement boats in the 42-55 foot range. MT, GB and the like. Cats, DD, Deeres, Fords. A variety of horse powers. Some blown, some naturally aspirated. No, I'm not building a boat, but I won't buy a boat that doesn't have engines that give me the warm and fuzzies. Hence all this research.

Hello Oscar,


based upon your inputs a good book to get you started that will cover all the bases reasonably well is by Nigel Calder.
"Marine diesel engines, maintenance, troubleshooting and repair"
2nd ed ISBN # 0-87742-313-X
200 pages - many good descriptions - pictures and some charts that you can really understand.
Hope this helps

Thanks, yes I've "known" Nigel for years in the sailboat end. Mostly his electrical musings. Thanks.

Nothing wrong with the list you provided, I would add Cummins.


Since I do most of my own work I prefer inline 6s ove V8s. simple and fewer parts and easier to get to the outside of the engine.
Right sizing the engine displacement is important. If you plan to need 50HP per liter from your engine they wont last as long as 30 HP per liter sized engines.
N.B. It is not the size of the engines that determines fuel use and life it is how hard you use them.

I do agree, the boatdiesel resource is essential or you're doing it wrong. Think of them as an educational oil change and think tank about piss tanks - I mean day tanks.

Hawgwash said:

So, do CAT numbers 31..32..34..etc. follow a chronological progression?
Also I have seen a series of boats with CAT 3116, which I don't see that often. Know anything about them?

Click to expand...

Boatdiesel had an explanation of Cat's numbering system a few months ago, but I don't remember what it said. 3116 is an inline 6 and a 3208 is a V8.

All I know about Cats is what I have read on boatdiesel, mostly good, no obvious vices.

David

Gardner...Gardner...too bad you can't edit after an hour...

I always get Gardner and Garden (William) mixed up, as I do Owens and Ohman.

Gardner- lovely piece of iron. I have a 6lw I am going to rebuild and am still looking for a 6L3B to put in Florence instead of the 671. One day maybe.

Don't forget about the Perkins engines '60s - 80's in 4-108 & 4-236 versions. Pretty bullet proof engines (knock on wood).

Kevin

No mention of VOLVO and I concur with that decision. They offer the worst customer service in the industry and do not support older engines. I just priced a valve cover gasket, and they want $80..00 for it, if available. Cat or Cummins beats VOLVO every time when it comes to availability and cost of repair parts.

Speaking of Gardner...

Hi Oscar,

+ 1 for boatdiesel. They get our $25 each year, paid-with-pleasure.

Take your time and pour through this site, you will learn a lot. Well, I did anyway.

When looking at engines, remember to look out for their RATING. Deere's are rated; M1, M2, etc. Others perhaps, Continuous Duty, Heavy Duty, Pleasure Duty, etc. Each manufacturer will have different ratings for their engines - to suit the way you use your boat,,, displacement, semi-displacement, planing, etc. and also take into consideration how many hours per year you expect to use the engine. These ratings are also associated to RPM's.

For example;

CUMMINS QSL-9

This is a fantastic engine, 6 Cylinders, 8.90 Litres capacity, Turbocharged & Aftercooled. It has 10 possible "Ratings". 2 are listed below:

CON-Continuous Duty @ 280 HP 31.5 HP/Liter @1800 rpm

HO-High Output @ 405 HP 45.5 HP/Liter @2100 rpm

same engine, different rating to suit your boating specifics.

David Pascoe's "Mid Size Power Boats" has quite a bit of opinion on diesels. I like his writing, others have been critical.


Keith

Diesel Duck 492 said:

Speaking of Gardner...

Click to expand...

2 for sale in Australia
Gardner marine diesel | Boat Accessories & Parts | Gumtree Australia Fraser Coast - River Heads | 1092480541


6LX/LXB GARDNER DIESEL ENGINES & PARTS | Boat Accessories & Parts | Gumtree Australia Tweed Heads Area - Tweed Heads 2485 | 1066396244

Diesel Duck 492 said:

Speaking of Gardner...

Click to expand...

492,

nice engine!! Is that going in your new Duck?


.

ancora said:

No mention of VOLVO and I concur with that decision. They offer the worst customer service in the industry and do not support older engines. I just priced a valve cover gasket, and they want $80..00 for it, if available. Cat or Cummins beats VOLVO every time when it comes to availability and cost of repair parts.

Click to expand...

I'd tend to agree about Volvo's. Had a couple and the parts are very expensive if you can get them. I've had a couple of Cats to and have to say there customer service here in Australia was atrocious. Never heard a bad thing about Cummins.

That's a pretty looking Gardner.

Thanks Dave for that diesel engine primer, I learned something.
Now I'm really happy my Cummins B series are all mechanical.

"David Pascoe's "Mid Size Power Boats" has quite a bit of opinion on diesels. I like his writing, others have been critical."

Mostly because they own a boat he pans.

He has little love for entry level built TT of old.

refugio said:

David Pascoe's "Mid Size Power Boats" has quite a bit of opinion on diesels. I like his writing, others have been critical. Keith

Click to expand...

Is Pascoe still around? I seem to remember he peaked about when Cat was making the 3116. His anecdotal engine writings seemed short on facts and long on generalizations. Seldom did he mention the need for correct propping on larger planing vessels and how overloading could crater an otherwise good engine.

Critical or not, his surveying activities were enhanced by his books. Marketing 101 at work.

nemier said:

492,

nice engine!! Is that going in your new Duck?.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately no. This particular Gardner engine is going into another Duck currently under construction at SHM. The good news is I still have time to decide if I want to go with a Gardner or the standard JD 4045.