Wannabee Windows

Marin wrote:

I really like vertical pilothouse windows when they compliment the design and when the windows themselves have some character.

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And those are four really great examples of your point, Marin. *RT's on the other hand, a bit more character.

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Hiya,
** Profile view 1/2 way down the page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Tugboat

Enjoy.* Neighbor's kids watch him on qubo.

Marin,
I don't think your pic #2 has windows that compliment the boat design at all. The hull has very nice lines and the house looks just like a box.

BoatDesign.net has had a discussion about window rake and I'd like to cut and paste but don't feel right about it and it's [rolly not legal either.
Some of the essence of the highlights were:
Several felt strongly that windows that were'nt raked back were far more vulnerable to
structural failure. One fellow Alaskan went so far as to say fwd raked windows were "unseamanlike". Nobody felt otherwise.
One advantage that was mentioned that we (I think) didn't cover is that fwd raked windows don't allow water to sit at the bottom of the window and then leak.
There was no discussion on how the windows looked.

nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
I don't think your pic #2 has windows that compliment the boat design at all. The hull has very nice lines and the house looks just like a box.

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That boat was built in 1927.* That's what they did then, particulary for local cruisers.* It's not a Lake Union Dreamboat but it's the same idea.* Streamlining and whatnot was not really in vogue back then.* It's not my idea of great aesthetics, either, but in the catagory of "old" as having historic or nostalgic value, it's a very nice boat.

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nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
I don't think your pic #2 has windows that compliment the boat design at all. The hull has very nice lines and the house looks just like a box.
Some of the essence of the highlights were:
Several felt strongly that windows that were'nt raked back were far more vulnerable to
structural failure. One fellow Alaskan went so far as to say fwd raked windows were "unseamanlike".

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Seriously???? " unseamanlike".... structurally unsound???

I think there are a number of captains up north that must think otherwise... you either like them or you don't
HOLLYWOOD

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hollywood8118 wrote:


I think there are a number of captains up north that must think otherwise... you either like them or you don't
HOLLYWOOD

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While I don't care for reverse-raked windows on aesthetic grounds, there is no denying that for rough water work they make a lot*more sense than raked-back or even vertical windows.* In addition to presenting a sharper angle to boarding water and heavy spray, thus reducing the liklihood that they will break, they deflect the water down.* Raked back windows deflect the water up, but gravity tends to dictate that what goes up must come back down.* So you can get water on the window twice, once when it hits and goes up and then when it comes back down.

As to structural strength, there is no reason I can think of why a reverse-raked window cannot be made as strong as any other kind of window.* I see nothing inerently weak about them from their rake alone.* But raked-back windows can be hit square on by water curving down on them and thus be subjected to more impact pressure than reverse-raked windows.

So in my opinion, they make all sorts of sense on boats that are going to encounter these kinds of conditions.* Better the windows function effectively than look good.* It's on boats that are not going to encounter these kinds of conditions where the reverse-raked windows don't make sense to me.* They aren't needed to deflect boarding water, so all you're left with is the awkward, unflattering*look (in my opinion).

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-- Edited by Marin on Monday 17th of January 2011 05:08:39 PM

OK Marin perhaps I didn't express myself well enough. Here is what the guy said

" sorry but I can't stand it anymore! Forward raked, some call it "West Coast" style, windshields are better in almost every way - rain, drips, radio room overhead...they effectively make your wheelhouse larger. They can be engineered to be as strong as the surrounding superstructure but they have a problem in that they aren't. A wave doesn't land on a window like many believe, a wave washes up to a window, and if it is forward raked and built for the tranquilness of Florida, or wherever, they will break or pop out when it does. If people don't think that water is a sharp enough medium to break a well-installed window, let me remind them that I have had lumber wash up my foredeck and aft-raked forward windows. I have made a mistake and had equipment and personel wash up onto my windows. In short, I have seen it dozens of times and from my experience, up to and including green water up my aft raked windows, it is my opinion that forward raked windows are unseamanlike. They are a hazard unless mounted better than any sportboat windows, and twice as thick as the standard 1/4" or 5/16" (schoolbus) windows. I have seen windows twenty feet high mounted in steel removed from a vertical mounting. If they were forward raked, it wouldn't be one here, one there, when the seas got mean, it would be all of them. Don't let SeaGlaze or whoever sell you those damned 1/4" sliders - they are waiting to allow large quantities of seawater into your cabin. 1/4" breaks if you look at it wrong.

Well, I suppose what he says might be true depending on the configuration of the boat in question. I know that when our hull kicks up water high into the air and the wind catches it and whangs it into the pilothouse windows, the spray comes into the window straight or at a slight downward angle. Now we're not kicking up anything that hits with enough force to break anything so it's not a concern in our case.

But in videos I've seen of boats like salvage tugs and rescue craft bashing through heavy water, the water always appears to slam into the wheelhouse either straight or at a downward angle. But these boats tend to have higher bows and throw the water higher than something like sport fisherman or whatever.

Of course the telling argument is that reverse-raked windows are not new.* They have been on tugs and fishing boats and Coast Guard boats and whatnot for decades.* If they had a reputation for being problematic, the designers, builders, and operators would have stopped using them.* But they haven't.* So I can only surmise from this that they work as advertised.* At least in the boats that are designed and*built for rough water work.* I dont' think the tug and commercial fishing boat designers and manufacturers are using them to make a fashion statement

One factor might make*a difference, and that is the commercial craft designed for rough water work tend to have their pilothouse windows up higher than the typical recreational trawler. Take another look at the crabber "Northwestern" in Hollywood's post.* So any green water that is taken over the bow and races down the deck to "wash into" the superstrucure is going to be hitting a solid bulkhead, not windows.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 17th of January 2011 08:44:34 PM

nomadwilly wrote:

OK Marin perhaps I didn't express myself well enough. Here is what the guy said

" sorry but I can't stand it anymore! Forward raked, some call it "West Coast" style, windshields are better in almost every way - rain, drips, radio room overhead...they effectively make your wheelhouse larger. They can be engineered to be as strong as the surrounding superstructure but they have a problem in that they aren't. A wave doesn't land on a window like many believe, a wave washes up to a window, and if it is forward raked and built for the tranquilness of Florida, or wherever, they will break or pop out when it does. If people don't think that water is a sharp enough medium to break a well-installed window, let me remind them that I have had lumber wash up my foredeck and aft-raked forward windows. I have made a mistake and had equipment and personel wash up onto my windows. In short, I have seen it dozens of times and from my experience, up to and including green water up my aft raked windows, it is my opinion that forward raked windows are unseamanlike. They are a hazard unless mounted better than any sportboat windows, and twice as thick as the standard 1/4" or 5/16" (schoolbus) windows. I have seen windows twenty feet high mounted in steel removed from a vertical mounting. If they were forward raked, it wouldn't be one here, one there, when the seas got mean, it would be all of them. Don't let SeaGlaze or whoever sell you those damned 1/4" sliders - they are waiting to allow large quantities of seawater into your cabin. 1/4" breaks if you look at it wrong.

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I still don't buy it.... EVERY marine architect must have their head up their arse because the boats that are designed to take the worst that the sea can dish out all seem to be designed with forward slanting windows. For me just to keep the glare of lights in the bridge at night* and sun that reflects off water droplets on the windows out of my view would make it a must have on a yacht I would have build.

but what do I know... I looked through vertical windows for years!
HOLLYWOOD

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A lot of these boats/ships that you hold up as evidence that fwd raked windows are great for heavy going may be more related to what a person on the cabin side of such windows needs to look at through those windows. Most of these large sea going vessels have big expansive deck areas ahead of the bridge where very important things often happen and fwd raked windows may just be great for looking down on these decks. You talk of spray Marin*** ...why? It's a ton or more of green water that will threaten a well made window and that mass of water is going to be moving horizontally directly at those fwd raked windows. I think fwd windows are most often found on a bridge or wheelhouse that is high up and usually not threatened by waves. But in yachts windows are as they are mostly just to sell boats**** ...frequently/mostly to people that wouldn't know what is good. More like "I like it".

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 11:02:07 AM

Considering the example of a mass of water moving horizontally...Water will always have gravity working on it accelerating it downward. Even if it is moving horizontally when it hits the window, it would take less force to deflect it downwards with gravity than to deflect it upwards against gravity.

Just a thought. I really don't think most cruising boats will ever find themselves in conditions with green water hitting the pilothouse windows. I do see that the forward slant would greatly reduce glare and solar heat gain which might be more important for most cruising boats than a streamlined appearance.

I think that last comment summed it up well. As for me, I am now the proud owner of the only (virtual) CHB 34 with forward raked windows, and I'll see how I feel about it. The caricature analogy made by Marin might just be right - or could be it's just a case of what one is used to....?

"More like ""I like it".

To what other part of recreational vessels and most workboats does that not apply?

The first set of drawings for any vessel are produced by a stylist, that is what sells the concept. The naval architecture and engineering comes along later.

Because style exists for style sake does not mean it is invalid. Why did you choose your boat? Does its form strictly follow or limit its function?

There is a lot of silliness clinging to discussions by and about recreational boats but this thing where someone calls slanted windows "wannabe windows" really takes the cake.

Rick,
They were called "West Coast Windows" on BoatDesign.

I don't think anyone should be worried about their safety relative to which way their windows slant. These discussions are just an analytical thing like talk'in philosophy.

Interestingly, Pioneer is a "Westcoaster" design - west coast of Australia that is.

The fishing boat heritage produced the "wannabe windows" and, while reducing the dash area a bit, they allow more space overhead for radios etc.**Haven't come across a serious downside yet.

Nice and cool in summer too.
Jeff b

-- Edited by Bendit on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 02:02:17 PM

Phil Fill wrote:

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Weather they are backward or forward slant the windows have to be strong/thick enough to withstand the water and winds. I our windows are 3/8 shatter resistant glass. So if the windows and frame are not thick/strong enough it does not matter which way the windows are slanted. I would prefer wannabee windows as it would make the Eagle more uglier than she already is.*

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OK Phil, here you are, the Roughwater 58 "Wannabee".

"I our windows are 3/8 shatter resistant glass."

3/8 glass is marginal for a 5x8 port IF the port has a storm cover.

An offshore boat fwd window will need to be far thicker.

We use 3/4 lexan on our near shore ( 100miles out) lobster boat, and our 90/90 has 12 inch ports with storm covers and 3/4 glass.

Liberty ship takeouts.

Tex, thanks for the picture.


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I realize 3/8" is marginal but that is what was originally installed.* The salon windows are 36 X 48 and the pilot house 36 X 36.* ***

"Hey guys, you're entitled to any opinion you have, but just remember your opinion is not the only valid one in the house".

I think you just said it and it was well said.

Personally I like slanted windows on some boats, really don't like them on others. It is a small feature just like many other small features that make the styling attractive, or not if you don't like that sort of thing. It's purely subjective.

If you want to know what I would call a "wannabe" it is calling a pleasure boat with a carpeted engine room "commercial."

Ours is carpeted - with diapers!

"Ours is carpeted - with diapers!"

I hope they are the oil absorbent type!*

For a second, there, I thought we were talking about "Load Limits"

Being new to the forum, I just discovered this interesting debate and predict you can guess where I come out on this. The forward slanted windows in the PH of this AT give it a great personality, and they are one of the reasons I recently purchased the boat. When I get it delivered to my dock this spring, I'll post a real picture.

I remember there was a lot of interest in the fwd raked window discussion and I ran across this by the great NA Atkin.
"Notice that the deckhouse is fitted vertically. This has nothing to do with stylistic "quaintness." A house of this type is more practical than a "streamlined" one. Visibility is better through a vertical surface, particularly at night. Rain and salt spray are shed faster. Construction is easier, faster and cheaper. The sun visor is more effective. Interior room can be more efficiently utilized. At any rate, has anyone ever investigated the improvement in performance resulting from "streamlining" a boat going ten mph?"
"fitted vertically" means the house windows are all vertical. I'm fairly certian this coment was made well before trawlers emerged.

nomadwilly wrote:


"fitted vertically" means the house windows are all vertical. I'm fairly certian this coment was made well before trawlers emerged.

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If you look at the typical internal combustion-driven northwest fishing trollers, seiners, gillnetters, etc. made from the first part of the 20th century up though the 1950s or 60s or later virtually every one of them has vertical pilothouse windows.

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Yes Marin and now I'm looking at this a bit differently now. When it comes right down to it why should front pilothouse windows be anything BUT vertical? They even put tail fins on boats in the 50s/60s and there is no doubt we are a very automobile focused society. I suspect wheelhouse windows got slanted when fast boats came about and they found that windows raked back looked better but mostly it probably evolved from car windows being raked back. I recall auto windows were vertical at one time. In many ways we hold up the car as our greatest achievement and in the cultural way it flies fairly well. In the 40s, 50s and 60s we evolved an infrastructure of drive in restaurants to drive in everything*** ...seemingly. So it's not a big shock that boats and other things got styled like cars. The greatest expression of this is the sexy open cockpit "speed boats" like the CC and all the others. So on trawlers the best question is probably why slant wheelhouse windows at all?

nomadwilly wrote:

So on trawlers the best question is probably why slant wheelhouse windows at all?

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Aesthetics.* Why curve the lines of the superstructure to compliment the sheerline of the hull?* There no functional reason to do this.* It just looks good.

Reverse-raked windshields have a function behind their form which is to deflect boarding water or spray down and to reduce glare.* They bring a certain tough, workboat air to whatever craft they're applied to, so that's why a lot of people like them, even people who have no reason in their boating to need the function of reverse-raked windows.*

I believe they're liked by some people for the same reason some people like Hummers.* In the Army, the humvee's design made sense because of the way the vehicle was going to be used.* But starting with Arnold Schwarzenegger it became apparent there was a market for a similar vehicle among civilians who wanted for whatever reasons to apply the tough, off-road, military image to themselves.

Reverse-raked windows on a Nordhavn make sense because of what the boat is capable of.* Reverse-raked windows on an coastal cruiser like an American Tug, not so much I think.* But a lot of people buy Hummers even though the roughest road they'll ever see is the bump over the curb into their driveway.* Image is a powerful incentive in what people buy, and it's a foolish manufacturer that doesn't take advantage of that.

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wow i made it through all 12 pages.
some peeps just word their opinion way too many times

being from the north atlantic region (north sea) where many a boat has the window type described as forward slanted, i think it is very logic.

this type window is on "heavy weather/heavy seas" type boats moving at slow speeds.
the water coming onto the wheel house is not a wave but rather heavy splashes from the bow crashing through heavy seas, the water/mist/rain/snow is easily deflected downwards as such to keep forward visibility optimal.



now this type window is just not plain smart for our type trawlers for various reasons:

it is not aerodynamic, and will increase your drag (even at 10mph).
but mainly when our type boats hit heavy seas, the wave will come up on over the bow, basically flooding the forward deck, and if you had forward slant windows the water would get trapped there and exert a heavier force on those windows whilst regular slanted windows will allow the water to "roll off".

Per--- A Grand Banks would last about fifteen minutes in the conditions illustrated in your photo no matter which way the windows slanted

"some peeps just word their opinion way too many times"
Hmmmm are you refering to me? I have said what you have just said at least several times. No one bought it. Lets see how well you do. I think you've expressed it well.
Per,** Why does it say in your profile that your'e from LA?