Not using your AIS

Hawgwash said:

I'll let you maritime lawyers duke it out.
I do have one question though;
Where would this fit in the world of black and white?

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Somewhere close to driving around with a rear tail lite burned out and not knowing until a policeman was nice enough to pull you over and tell you. Then you realize that maybe it's something you should check periodically. Well, not maybe. It is. Same with turn signals.

One should verify periodically that their AIS is working. Same with much equipment. Time to find out emergency bilge pump doesn't work is not in an emergency.

Neither AIS or RADAR has to be on in all conditions...per USCG and other maritime scholars.

Especially for small, slow toyboats like ours that can stop or turn within the main bang dead zone on the typical radar.

If you have a collision...they may make it a point in the investigation.... but there are many circumstances where neither would have prevented or provided useful info on the collision any more than normal eyesight...therefor would be so insignificant as to not even have had to be on.


If no watch was using visual cue to prevent collision...then obviously AIS or RADAR alarms would be huge.


But the misreading of the COLREGS about mandatory use is pretty common....at least for US mariners....as other countries may enforce it differently.

BandB said:

My piracy issue only applies in very limited situations. Not in general use and not in congested or highly trafficked areas. We only went dark in a section miles offshore and where during the entire night we didn't pick up any other boat on radar. Areas of high piracy, we'd choose to avoid rather than go dark. The area we were in was one the locals referred to as occasional petty piracy.

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Keep in mind that our boats are all out in public view, so any notion of location private was long ago tossed out the window. There is NOTHING private about the location of your boat as long as it's in public view, which is pretty much all the time.

twistedtree said:

Keep in mind that our boats are all out in public view, so any notion of location private was long ago tossed out the window. There is NOTHING private about the location of your boat as long as it's in public view, which is pretty much all the time.

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I wasn't referring to privacy, but to piracy areas.

As to privacy, you're right, the boat is obvious to one who can see it. I only answered the initial question as to whether some don't use AIS because of privacy concerns. We do use ours, it identifies the boat. In no way does it identify us personally, so not something we're concerned about.

Someone also mentioned it telling people you're not home. Well, it's so extremely easy to identify homes where the owners are away. Burglars just case a neighborhood or streets and quickly know.

We do turn ours off at marinas. I think having 400 boats at a marina sending signals would be quite distractive and serve no purpose.

BandB said:

I wasn't referring to privacy, but to piracy areas.

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Sorry, probably shouldn't have quoted your reply. It was really more of an aggregate reply to the privacy issues. Masking you as owner of the boat is another topic. We considered that and ultimately concluded it was unlikely anyone would really care. In that respect, it's good to be nobody

twistedtree said:

Keep in mind that our boats are all out in public view, so any notion of location private was long ago tossed out the window. There is NOTHING private about the location of your boat as long as it's in public view, which is pretty much all the time.

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Nevertheless, one can query the internet to find your last/current location if using AIS to broadcast one's location, so one does not need to be within visible range of your boat.

What? Me worry? Only a tiny minority of you use their real name on this site.

markpierce said:

Nevertheless, one can query the internet to find your last/current location if using AIS to broadcast one's location, so one does not need to be within visible range of your boat.

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True, but public info and the accessibiity of that info are two different things. Take land records as an example. They are public and have been for hundreds of years. But now anyone can access many of them online where previously you had to physically go to a county or town clerks office. Ditto for vessel documentation records. Now anyone can see who owns any documented boat, give or take the backlog at the USCG documentation center. But there is now doubt things have changed.

Oh, and through my keen research and deductive reasoning, I have determined that your real name is Mark Pierce. But I promise not to tell anyone.

twistedtree said:

Keep in mind that our boats are all out in public view, so any notion of location private was long ago tossed out the window. There is NOTHING private about the location of your boat as long as it's in public view, which is pretty much all the time.

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That's true. I saw yours the other day docked at Salmon Bay. That doesn't mean you are on board. But if someone sees on AIS that you are on the move, sees your blog is updated, and your facebook status says what a good time you are having wherever, then someone can be reasonably sure you aren't home. Finding an address on the internet is easy. Using google street view shows someone what it looks like. For me, not broadcasting my AIS position is part of an overall personal risk management plan. Just like not updating a blog in real time, not showing my SPOT location on a blog, not updating social media while away from home, and having a home security system. Maybe I'm paranoid or giving criminals more credit than they deserve, or both. Burglary rings use facebook status to target victims. AIS is similar location based information. They may never catch on, but if or when they do, I won't be a target.

twistedtree said:

True, but public info and the accessibiity of that info are two different things.

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Identity theft was officially calculated last year at $16 Billion. I think it was probably double that. I've known many victims. 20 years ago I was victimized by a female housekeeper. Unfortunately my name could pass for male or female. She obtained 9 department store cards and went on a shopping spree, then she decided to purchase a double wide mobile home. The loan was approved and delivery scheduled. On the day of delivery someone in the mobile home dealer office decided to verify employment. They were immediately suspicious not thinking I was buying one.

The rest of the story. At that time identity theft itself wasn't a crime so no charges there. Nothing had been taken from me so no crime there. Nothing taken from the mobile home company so at most a misdemeanor. Now, the department stores, nine felonies. One problem. None of them would prosecute. Too much trouble and no benefit to them. Oh, and this wasn't her first time plus her mother was in prison for various fraudulent acts of the same nature.

Some criminal acts are so easy in today's world, I'm amazed we don't have more.

drb1025 said:

That's true. I saw yours the other day docked at Salmon Bay. That doesn't mean you are on board. But if someone sees on AIS that you are on the move, sees your blog is updated, and your facebook status says what a good time you are having wherever, then someone can be reasonably sure you aren't home. Finding an address on the internet is easy. Using google street view shows someone what it looks like. For me, not broadcasting my AIS position is part of an overall personal risk management plan. Just like not updating a blog in real time, not showing my SPOT location on a blog, not updating social media while away from home, and having a home security system. Maybe I'm paranoid or giving criminals more credit than they deserve, or both. Burglary rings use facebook status to target victims. AIS is similar location based information. They may never catch on, but if or when they do, I won't be a target.

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Can't argue with you. It's all a calculated risk, and we each calculate it a bit differently and tolerate different risks to different degrees.

Oh, and even though someone can tell pretty easily when I'm somewhere else, they don't know who else is in my house..... That's my secret weapon - sort of.

twistedtree said:

Oh, and even though someone can tell pretty easily when I'm somewhere else, they don't know who else is in my house..... That's my secret weapon - sort of.

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The house check is so much easier. Too many signs whether it's being lived in or watched or not. Mail. Lawn. Newspapers. Lights at night. Coming and going. Trash being put out, so casing on trash day is done. Flyers at front door. Then of course, everyone you told or notified. Now, Facebook announcements are nice and make it easier.

So most house thiefs are not looking for AIS.

I consider AIS a key safety feature. One example is entering a busy harbor like Norfolk at nigh with heavy traffic. Very comforting being called by name with ships intention and staying in synch with traffic.
Recently I found out a big negative with AIS. NOAA tracks boats via AIS while traveling through Right Whale habitat. If you are going over 10 knots and over 65 feet you will be notified by certified mail and fined sometimes 18 months later.

Marin said:

This statement trips up a lot of boaters. "Appropriate" does not mean "have to use it." In a USCG presentation to our boating club a number of years ago this topic came up. A question was asked "who determines what is appropriate?" Answer- you do, meaning the captain or whoever has responsibility for the vessel.

Another question was does this mean if your boat has a working radar you have to have it on when you are underway? Answer- no. However if you have a working radar and you are involved in a collision or accident that using your radar might have prevented had you been using it then you may be deemed at least partly responsible for the accident.

I suspect the same holds true for AIS which, like radar, is not required for recreational boating. Use it if you determine it is appropriate for the conditions. If you don't think it's appropriate you are under no obligation to use it.

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And this message illustrates why forum readers should not rely on the opinions expressed by members, but should look instead for an authoritative source, in this case the USCG NAVRULES FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:

refugio said:

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS[/URL]:

11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it.​

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I believe that's almost what that means but not quiet, so perhaps another rule is careful interpreting rules or FAQ's. Proper use does not mean one must use it at all times, but means that one must use it if conditions and circumstances warrant.

Now that we have differing interpretations of one statement, that does point out the difficulty of some of the rules. My interpretation was the if they meant it must be used at all times they would have stated "that radar must be used at all times if fitted and operational" or something stronger and more rigid than what they did state. Now, there's now way of knowing whether your interpretation or mine is correct and I'll bet if you spoke with multiple CG officers you'd get differing interpretations as well.

BandB said:

I believe that's almost what that means but not quiet, so perhaps another rule is careful interpreting rules or FAQ's. Proper use does not mean one must use it at all times, but means that one must use it if conditions and circumstances warrant.



Now that we have differing interpretations of one statement, that does point out the difficulty of some of the rules. My interpretation was the if they meant it must be used at all times they would have stated "that radar must be used at all times if fitted and operational" or something stronger and more rigid than what they did state. Now, there's now way of knowing whether your interpretation or mine is correct and I'll bet if you spoke with multiple CG officers you'd get differing interpretations as well.

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My opinion. I will deter to the expert opinion of a maritime lawyer on this one. Until that time, I will keep all Nav aids in operation when the vessel is underway.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

But Keith, really, look what you just said.

refugio said:

And this message illustrates why forum readers should not rely on the opinions expressed by members, but should look instead for an authoritative source, in this case the USCG NAVRULES FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:

11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it.
​

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When you site a Reg and then say "In other words" you are just expressing YOUR opinion.

The first half of your post negates the second half.

JDCAVE said:

My opinion. I will deter to the expert opinion of a maritime lawyer on this one. Until that time, I will keep all Nav aids in operation when the vessel is underway.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

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It could take a team of maritime attorney's all arguing with each other as a couple of more complex words. You say you'll keep them all in operation. That may not mean proper use. I trust you would put it to proper use, but I've seen people who had no idea how to properly set their radar and/or didn't pay attention to it.

JDCAVE said:

I will deter to the expert opinion of a maritime lawyer on this one.

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Then expert "opinions" line up on the other side and that's what keeps the self serving, billable minutes industry going.

Hawgwash said:

Then expert "opinions" line up on the other side and that's what keeps the self serving, billable minutes industry going.

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I have a former colleague who practices maritime law. I'll ask him if leaving your AIS off would constitute proper use of the equipment when underway.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

JDCAVE said:

I have a former colleague who practices maritime law. I'll ask him if leaving your AIS off would constitute proper use of the equipment when underway.

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But that's just it isn't it?
Unless there is substantive case law, all he can cough up is an opinion.
In that case, his word is no more definitive than yours, mine or the man in the Moonstruck.

Full quote of the USCG Frequently asked question from post #103:

"1. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it. The Navigation Rules are not meant to discourage the use of any device, rather they expect prudent mariners to avail themselves of all available means appropriate...as to make full appraisal of the situation (Rule 5), e.g. the use of radar. At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact.

Should you be in a collision how would a judge/jury rule on your contention that the use of radar was impracticable (due to electrical drain, crew shortages, etc.)? Also, if a collision does occur, then there was obviously a risk of collision beforehand. Could the determination of that risk have been made sooner with the use of radar? It is difficult to answer such questions because the circumstances of each case are different.

More importantly, remember that Rule 7 specifies that assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information."
End quote.

Refugio did not add the bold print words in post #103, they are part of the USCG answer to the FAQ.

refugio said:

And this message illustrates why forum readers should not rely on the opinions expressed by members, but should look instead for an authoritative source, in this case the USCG NAVRULES FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:

11. Am I required to have Radar? Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it.​

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I truly enjoyed some of the "interpretations" of "In other words, whoever has one must use it". I'm guessing that those folks didn't recognize a block quote - with emphasis added - or click through to read the USCG FAQ, where they would have seen that that is what the USCG posted in an (apparently unsuccessful) attempt to put to rest all the "interpretations".

from "USCG AIS frequently asked questions" site

"6. When must AIS be in operation? Vessels equipped with AIS (either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily) must abide by the requirements set forth in 33 CFR 164.46(d) and should especially ensure their AIS is in properly installed, using an assigned MMSI, and, that its data is accessible from the primary conning position of the vessel. Also, that it be in 'effective operating condition', which entails the continuous operation of AIS and the accurate input and upkeep of AIS data fields during all times that the vessel is navigating (underway or at anchor), and, at least 15 minutes prior to unmooring. Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. The AIS should return to continuous operation as soon as the source of danger has been mitigated."

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=AISFAQ#6

Larry H said:

Refugio did not add the bold print words in post #103, they are part of the USCG answer to the FAQ.

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Yes, but a lot of qualifiers followed the part he made bold that modify the meaning and then ultimately says, and I am paraphrasing, "you can't be sure what a court will decide."

markpierce said:

from "USCG AIS frequently asked questions" site

"6. When must AIS be in operation? Vessels equipped with AIS (either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily) must abide by the requirements set forth in 33 CFR 164.46(d) and should especially ensure their AIS is in properly installed, using an assigned MMSI, and, that its data is accessible from the primary conning position of the vessel. Also, that it be in 'effective operating condition', which entails the continuous operation of AIS and the accurate input and upkeep of AIS data fields during all times that the vessel is navigating (underway or at anchor), and, at least 15 minutes prior to unmooring. Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. The AIS should return to continuous operation as soon as the source of danger has been mitigated."

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=AISFAQ#6

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Nice! That appears dispositive and seems like "common sense" to me, but I suppose that one could always argue that the courts may decide differently!

BandB said:

Yes, but a lot of qualifiers followed the part he made bold that modify the meaning and then ultimately says, and I am paraphrasing, "you can't be sure what a court will decide."

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Modify the meaning? Not in my mind, but in the interest of completeness, here is the rest of that FAQ:
So, ok, you'll get your day in court via "due process", which is constitutional (in the US). I can't wait to hear the arguments against using Radar (and AIS) - I'll bet it sounds like the guy this summer who was found guilty of "homicide by watercraft" who claimed he was in the "fast lane" on Lake Washington.

markpierce said:

Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. ]

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Exactly the circumstances we switched it off, just we weren't in US waters at the time.

Hawgwash said:

But that's just it isn't it?

All he can cough up is an opinion.

His word is no more definitive than yours, mine or the man in the Moonstruck.

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I don't know what you mean by definitive. I would suggest however he would qualify as an expert in these matters, given his practice is maritime law (I, on the other hand am no such expert). He is a member of the Transportation Appeal Tribunal of Canada. His bonafides were deemed sufficient qualification to earn his position on that tribunal.




Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

refugio said:

Not in my mind, but in the interest of completeness, here is the rest of that FAQ:

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And in the interests of even more completeness here is where it all begins and really the whole thing doesn't appear to include most on here.
Does it?

§164.01 Applicability.
(a) This part (except as specifically limited by this section) applies to each self-propelled vessel of 1600 or more gross tons (except as provided in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, or for foreign vessels described in §164.02) when it is operating in the navigable waters of the United States except the St. Lawrence Seaway.

This thread could last all winter.

Hawgwash said:

And in the interests of even more completeness here is where it all begins and really the whole thing doesn't appear to include most on here.
Does it?

§164.01 Applicability.
(a) This part (except as specifically limited by this section) applies to each self-propelled vessel of 1600 or more gross tons (except as provided in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, or for foreign vessels described in §164.02) when it is operating in the navigable waters of the United States except the St. Lawrence Seaway.

This thread could last all winter.

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Took me a while to find that - here is the link to http://navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/AIS/33_CFR_164_AIS_2015_FR_linked.pdf

But you certainly did some selective editing there, leaving out: