Anchoring Question

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Brisyboy said:
Bruce,

I bought a chain hook from Muirs a month or so ago - it hooks onto the chain and has a large loop at the rear - plenty of room to attach two good size ropes - need to do the rope work yourself though.
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George, I have a chain hook I use, and it works, I`d prefer a plate which "cups" the chain, better distributing (I think) the load. I saw the product you have on Muirs site, it`s much like what I have.
For the snubber agnostics/haters, if you don`t see a benefit, don`t have one.
 
cafesport said:
It's all about catenary.
Snubbers only need be there when catenary isn't. Catenary can disappear if either one of two properties of the rode is not sufficient. Scope ratio and the chain's wetted weight. Spell check via iPhone.
Click to expand...

Last month we were anchored in near gale force winds which lasted for a few hours. Our V bridle snubber was stretched "fairly" taut while hooked onto the 3/8 chain. Would not the chain be equally taut whether the snubber is there or not?
 
Bruce-- You can get a chain grab plate like the one I think you are talking about from Fisheries Supply. Or you could have one fabricated by a local machine shop. The plate pictured is called a "chain gripper."
 

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sunchaser said:
Last month we were anchored in near gale force winds which lasted for a few hours. Our V bridle snubber was stretched "fairly" taut while hooked onto the 3/8 chain. Would not the chain be equally taut whether the snubber is there or not?
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The chain will be relatively taut, but the stretch of the line is better than it being hard attached to the boat, not just better for the boat (and the attachment point thereon) but for the anchor itself in staying set.

Our snubber bridle looks like the one Marin pictures:

oKdNfyoihjYyYm5jiclimz4vQwZY3JZWVfFxuY9zzoDcXEkjC4xtFfd4QU-ZtbHkgrNr1xKPeu5IoCaL3woVD3bqIDMBSoGTZmmUumgL6UdnnZnJpznsLeczJ1o99E-Ka9OpU__gAy26Z9YIZ55C8c-rMtJUQF2P3WMPhMdkDWB1ffMwZ3skuc2kO_aZx2K7dxDMn71SkAIWQYX86AaHqdLq-vlWZWbbyeTiglgGLnGXMgaOHC-PXP75dWm7boD4wMuDVwXZGR8CibS4H8Rn-x4Q8UGarj4LKkRbg9Pvdsob2UWpBuxQP3AWB8eF1KrTimcAe_GxgZq0_257b6buz6_l7oaNkhh3bb7ebARdHlHSzyC0JC8U-gl1Z0E_f9yUtkrJRHbcBW5ot8GpMCremn1rMByCtQSwwKcCVM4fbIxnWL-dQGfTWSbu1ryPuESJI_1WJmtKxgLAUq7jgXHumiet4zhtFG7XWtGsgsW0xY1hTAorA9dlYPKx1O8kQwsFeKPfT-w_9a7139jCqM3A6nDEL6-ow9Sdnd5sQ3qCxEs=w1000-h671-no
 
Many times a snubber is used to make up for the crap work from the boat assembler in not having a chain stopper to secure the vessel.

Its poor practice to use the windlass, so even folks whose boats do nor blow all over are required to do the snubber dance.

http://www.idealwindlass.com/new_page_5.htm
 
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Chain stopper does not replace the functions of the shubber other than protection of the windlass.
 
I have to agree with comments from Bruce K and caltexflanc, the snubber so have three purposes, with the main idea to take pressure off the anchor to assist it to stay in place by gradually applying a load in gusts and then easing off again, rather than a sudden stop, as chain will not give.

Why do anchor and winch manufacturers offer such a range of productsin relation to snubber so and attachments to chains, if there was no market or need for them ?
 
sunchaser said:
Last month we were anchored in near gale force winds which lasted for a few hours. Our V bridle snubber was stretched "fairly" taut while hooked onto the 3/8 chain. Would not the chain be equally taut whether the snubber is there or not?
Click to expand...


The rode force will always equal the wind force unless you are dragging. For example a forty knot breeze on your boat can create around 1500 pounds of force. 300' of your 3/8ths chain in 30' of water equates to around 2000 pounds of force before the catenary disappears and the last link lifts off the sea floor. At this point without a sunubber your anchor will experience sudden snatch loads as your bow rises and falls on any waves. If the snubber is sized properly it will stretch say 10% or 4' for a forty footer before increasing the force on the anchor. The key thing is it acts as a dampener against shock loads once the catenary disappears. If you let out more chain you increase this force and may not even need the snubber.



Spell check via iPhone.
 
caltexflanc said:
Chain stopper does not replace the functions of the shubber other than protection of the windlass.
Click to expand...



People arguing against the use of a snubber on an all chain setup, even with a chain stopper, are just bring silly.

If someone doesn't want to use a snubber that's of course just fine and their choice. But the advantages of using a properly designed snubber is obvious and undeniable. Just the fact they reduce snatch loads on the anchor and the vessel in a blow is worth the price admission.

But if domeone don't believe any of that, fine. Just please anchor down wind of me.
 
Marin said:
Bruce-- You can get a chain grab plate like the one I think you are talking about from Fisheries Supply. Or you could have one fabricated by a local machine shop. The plate pictured is called a "chain gripper."
Click to expand...

Have something similar, but it is "cupped." (Sorry, no photograph.)
 
Capt.Bill11 said:
People arguing against the use of a snubber on an all chain setup, even with a chain stopper, are just bring silly.

If someone doesn't want to use a snubber that's of course just fine and their choice. But the advantages of using a properly designed snubber is obvious and undeniable. Just the fact they reduce snatch loads on the anchor and the vessel in a blow is worth the price admission.

But if someone don't believe any of that, fine. Just please anchor down wind of me.
Click to expand...

And I'm still interested in where you find a snap shackle or snap hook that will fit in a chain link and match the working load. The various high end snubber riggers such as Rope Inc and Ultra haven't figured that one out yet either, nor have the windlass guys.
 
sunchaser said:
Last month we were anchored in near gale force winds which lasted for a few hours. Our V bridle snubber was stretched "fairly" taut while hooked onto the 3/8 chain. Would not the chain be equally taut whether the snubber is there or not?
Click to expand...
No, because there should be more length in the snubber line than the chain to the point of snubber attachment to the chain.
Tom, When I set my simple single line bear claw hook snubber, the chain is initially slack, very soon it tightens because (I think) the snubber line stretches, I release a little more chain, then the chain stays slack. I suspect your snubber line(s) stretched in the strong wind.
 
Marin and markpierce, thanks, the Fisheries Supply plate is what I`d prefer, even better is the curved/rolled/cupped end to go under the link for more even support. I`ll check Fisheries website, does this mean real trawler fishermen do use snubbers :).
 
caltexflanc said:
And I'm still interested in where you find a snap shackle or snap hook that will fit in a chain link and match the working load. The various high end snubber riggers such as Rope Inc and Ultra haven't figured that one out yet either, nor have the windlass guys.
Click to expand...


I think you used to be able to buy them on Silk Road. :rofl:

Seriously though, some of the high end snap shackles have a high working load but as you mentioned I don't know if they will fit in a chain link.
 
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Liberty2015 said:
Why do anchor and winch manufacturers offer such a range of products in relation to snubber so and attachments to chains, if there was no market or need for them ?
Click to expand...
According to a video by noted financial journalist Alan Kohler (which I just watched on "Eureka Report"), providing supply is part of creating demand, and therefore sales. He had the temerity to suggest Australia start making things! He also had some nasty things to say about the mess central banks(Aust and US incl) are causing, and he could be right.
The simple plate with slot was not on Fisheries site but a "Captain Hook" hook by Johnson Marine is, it`s on Defender too, it makes a hook by curling its 2 prongs under the chain link it grips.
 
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BruceK said:
The simple plate with slot was not on Fisheries site but a "Captain Hook" hook by Johnson Marine is, it`s on Defender too, it makes a hook by curling its 2 prongs under the chain link it grips.
Click to expand...

Bruce--- I copied the illustration of the Sea Dog chain gripper plate from the Fisheries on-line catalog. It's listed under anchor chain accessories or something like that. Perhaps Fisheries' full on-line catalog is not available in Australia although I have no idea why it wouldn't be.

West Marine has the same Sea Dog chain gripper plate in their on-line catalog, too.
 
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Thanks Marin, I searched Sea Dog, up came Fisheries Supply etc as stockists.
Ordered it, shipping cost more than the item, oh well, getting it fabricated would have been a hassle.
 
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caltexflanc said:
And I'm still interested in where you find a snap shackle or snap hook that will fit in a chain link and match the working load. The various high end snubber riggers such as Rope Inc and Ultra haven't figured that one out yet either, nor have the windlass guys.
Click to expand...
I think you can get close as long as it isn't galvanized, which is a non starter for me. Soft shackles are stronger than the chain so I still can't see the advantage of a hook or hard shackle. A 3/16" soft shackle made correctly of Dyneema has a breaking strength of around 12,000#. The breaking strength of 1/4" G4 is 7500#. Just too easy and too strong not to use, IMO.

This is a nice guide on making your own, for those interested:

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/improvedsoftshackle.pdf
 
sunchaser said:
Last month we were anchored in near gale force winds which lasted for a few hours. Our V bridle snubber was stretched "fairly" taut while hooked onto the 3/8 chain. Would not the chain be equally taut whether the snubber is there or not?
Click to expand...
When chain is taut, it has no more stretch. When a snubber is taut it may only have begun to stretch. Since the force of wind/wave is reduced proportionally to the distance over which the force is applied to the vessel, a snub line will significantly reduce the snatch load on the system. IMO, while bridles will quiet the chain and will help a bit to reduce loads, they are usually far too short to help as much as a single line 30' or so long.
 
Delfin said:
When chain is taut, it has no more stretch. When a snubber is taut it may only have begun to stretch. Since the force of wind/wave is reduced proportionally to the distance over which the force is applied to the vessel, a snub line will significantly reduce the snatch load on the system. IMO, while bridles will quiet the chain and will help a bit to reduce loads, they are usually far too short to help as much as a single line 30' or so long.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but I think he's just trying to point out that with or without a snubber the chain will go taught once the wind is strong enough.

But with a snubber you have still have shock absorption. Where as with out all the shock loads are transferred to the boat and anchor.
 
Delfin said:
When chain is taut, it has no more stretch. When a snubber is taut it may only have begun to stretch. Since the force of wind/wave is reduced proportionally to the distance over which the force is applied to the vessel, a snub line will significantly reduce the snatch load on the system. IMO, while bridles will quiet the chain and will help a bit to reduce loads, they are usually far too short to help as much as a single line 30' or so long.
Click to expand...


I agree. But how long the snubber to be of any shock loading use?

So to keep the balloon pricked here, yes Muir and others sell snubbers, gear and equipment to protect the (weak and flimsy) windlass and charge dearly for their off the shelf connectors. But nowhere have I seen tables, charts and data to support "this is how long your snubber needs to be to keep your anchor from dislodging when the wind starts blowing."

It would appear we are back to the not so novel concept of oversizing the anchor to deal with big blows and the unknown snubber stretch with ensuing benefits concept. Or have a combination rope and chain rode with a big anchor then all bases whether real or imagined are theoretically covered.


So, how long are your snubbers?
 
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sunchaser said:
I agree. But how long the snubber to be of any shock loading use?

So to keep the balloon pricked here, yes Muir and others sell snubbers, gear and equipment to protect the (weak and flimsy) windlass and charge dearly for their off the shelf connectors. But nowhere have I seen tables, charts and data to support "this is how long your snubber needs to be to keep your anchor from dislodging when the wind starts blowing."

It would appear we are back to the not so novel concept of oversizing the anchor to deal with big blows and the unknown snubber stretch with ensuing benefits concept. Or have a combination rope and chain rode with a big anchor then all bases whether real or imagined are theoretically covered.


So, how long are your snubbers?
Click to expand...


Most people use snubbers that are way to short IMO. The easiest way to do this is to use a snubber that is at least 25 feet long. Tie it off short if you wish in most case. But then you can let it out in the event the wind pipes up or a storm is predicted, to give you the extra stretch you need.

I should add put an eye in the vessel end of the snubber big enough to slip over your cleat or post to give you the longest length for the most stretch.

And for a snubber you want to use line with a good amount of elasticity to it, don't over size it and use chafe gear.
 
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sunchaser said:
So, how long are your snubbers?
Click to expand...

We follow the advice of a several long-time cruisers of this area (power and sail) in our boating club with regards to using a snubber. We use a V-bridle and we let the bridle out until the chain gripper is some 8 to 10 feet under the surface of the water. Once the bridle is deployed we let more chain out until we have a loop hanging down some 15 feet or more between the pulpit roller and the chain gripper.

This configuration helps lower the angle of pull on the anchor but of course enough of a blow will still pull the catenary out of the chain between the anchor and the chain gripper.

The fact we use a snubber has no effect on the size of anchor or the scope we use.
 
The snubber I use is 1/2 dia 3 strand nylon and just over 20 feet long.
That would put it about 15 feet off the bow roller.
 
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