Anchoring Question

CamanoFolks said:

I've mentioned this before, but it won't hurt to repeat our experience with either a double or single snubber. We have used a double on a KK42 that has a tendency to swing more than other trawlers. With the anchor chain hanging down in a loop between the bow and the chain hook when the boat swings the chain loop fetches up against the snubber. Trying to sleep while the chain links go bong, bong, bong on a taught snubber is only for the dead. After three days of that experience we never used a double snubber setup again. Perhaps if the snubber line had been of larger diameter the noise would have been less but then that defeats the purpose of an "elastic" snubber. YMMV.

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Thank you for putting my own sentiments into words.

And i had not thought about just using a single line. I will give it a try.

By the way, Marin is correct in that the bow configuration is a major factor in how snubbers work on various boats. I tried numerous double snubber configurations on the Krogen and could never find a solution until we went to a single. I did forget to say that our bad experience did involve 40+ knots of wind.

I've seen several boats with the bow eye snubber. If I had a bow eye I'd try it that way. I see advantages.

I think every place I have ever anchored I could be in trouble if I dragged. Maybe a few exceptions but not many

Hearsay I know, but why are snubbers as described in most quarters even necessary? Are our boats designed with a weak link permitting the bow to pull off in a 10 knot gale? How about those of us that don't care how noisy the front quarters are?

So these basic musings raise the subject of why are not all the commercial fishing boats lying at anchor not using long droop in the water snubbers? How about the plus 75' yachts I have been on not hanging a little rope off the bow attached to an anchor chain 30 feet down? How about the few tens of thousands of 30 foot SeaRays lying at anchor all over the interior lakes without a snubber?

Why do those with a rope rode not use a snubber? Is a truly necessary snubber nothing more than a short strong line to affix the anchor chain to a stout part of the boat?

Indeed Tom.

With my mostly nylon line rode I have no use for a snubber at all.
The snubber is to overcome a problem associated w using a chain rode.
And unless you're in a screaming gale there's plenty of catenary in the chain rode to absorb the shock loads.

sunchaser said:

Hearsay I know, but why are snubbers as described in most quarters even necessary?

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So, someone has spoken the unspeakable.
I would like to know how many homegrown BCers who spend most of their time on the hook, be it all chain or not, who regularly use a snubber.

Hawgwash said:

So, someone has spoken the unspeakable.
I would like to know how many homegrown BCers who spend most of their time on the hook, be it all chain or not, who regularly use a snubber.

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I'm willing to bet very few who use line as their rode use a snubber.

It's all about catenary.
Snubbers only need be there when catenary isn't. Catenary can disappear if either one of two properties of the rode is not sufficient. Scope ratio and the chain's wetted weight. The reason you don't see ships and commercial guys using snubbers is because they use lots of really heavy chain or wire when they anchor. If the wind straightens it out they let out more which is also why you don't see them in crowded anchorages. Using a bow eye snubber allows us to anchor using much less rode which reduces our swing radius. Our bow roller to keel distance is almost 20', which means if there is 6" of water under the keel and we anchor using 5:1, our swing diameter is over a football field.


Spell check via iPhone.

I use twin snubbers simply to keep the pressure off the windlass once anchor and chain is deployed. I usually relieve the chain of any pressure between snubber hook and windlass and all is good. Snubber lines are 5/8".

With 120 ft of chain and 240 line, I use a chain snubber in shallow waters to unload the windlass gypsy as recommended by the windlass manufacturer. In deeper waters of 25 ft or more, I let out enough rode to be able to cleat my rope rode portion onto the pulpit cleat. In both cases, the intent is to unload the windlass. On chain rode, it also silences the chain noises.

Having seen plenty of Krogens, it is still beyond me how you end up with chain banging against a properly set up double snub unless you just have a very short one with no lazy loop of chain behind the hook. When done right, there just isn't any chain there to bang into the snubber. I guess I'd have to see a picture.

As for why big boats/ships don't use them, Bill covered most of it. One other factor is that when things get really rough, they turn on the engine. Some are equipped with winches that have a hydraulic drag mechanism.

And no you don't really need a snubber on a rope rode as long as it is cleated off to something like a Samson post.

I used a single for a long time, merely attached to the chain with a rolling hitch. Worked just fine through some fairly fierce squalls and a a couple of days of constant 20+ anchored off the west end of Boot Key. I didn't like running it through the anchor roller, chafing against the chain and the side of the chute, though I set it up that way several times, with no Samson post, having to run it (not wrap it) around the capstan: better to bring it up under the chute and attach and then let out. I went to a double primarily because I admired how a friend of mine's worked when cruising with hm a few times. he gave it to me when he sold his cruising boat.

Again I also like using a shortened snubber to break out a balky anchor rather than stress the windlass and pulpit.

That set up of running it from a waterline level eye back up through the roller is still a complete head scratcher to me. Negates the benefits of the eye (less scope, no pressure on the pulpit/roller, and fewer chafe points) as well as introducing more complication.

We use a single line snubber with a chain hook/bearclaw Mr Hinz dislikes, to unload the Muir windlass, as Muir says we should. No one here seems to make the two line hook plate I would prefer to attach to the chain, so short of importing one with our $ as it is,maybe there is an opening for a new Aussie product.
When I fit the snubber, and then slacken the chain, I often find the chain re-tightens.I put that down to line stretch, ease the chain a second time, and it stays slack as it should.

Bruce,

Mine is from Muirs and is a double line v, each side being 6 metres each. Works quIte well and we use it all the time.

Cheers Chris D Liberty

We use a snubber with our all-chain rode whenever we anchor. Three reasons: provides shock absorbing if the boat surges against the chain; protects the windlass gears and other components from any surge loads; and the most relevant most of the time, prevents the chain from "squirming" in the bow roller and transmitting the noise throughout the boat.

You are spot on Marin

Cheers Chris D Liberty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrew View Post
Preferred by whom?? You? So that in an emergency it can't be reached from deck? This is a horrible idea and one I've never seen anyone use.

If you start dragging, your %$%@#@

rardoin said:

Why??

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Yes, I think Shrew missed the point, (not specifically related I admit), that clearly the snubber attached to a bow eye will come aboard with the rode when retrieved, provided of course it is attached (as FF always recommends), with a snap hook, so it does not disengage. My concern with this arrangement is the large forces applies to a small area on the pointy bit, and also the possibility (which I have seen happen), when someone retrieves in a bit of a hurry, or poor light, and the chain hook gets stuck in the roller assembly because the retrieve was not paused early enough to disengage it. Just a thought...

Marin says: "We use a snubber with our all-chain rode whenever we anchor. Three reasons: provides shock absorbing if the boat surges against the chain; protects the windlass gears and other components from any surge loads; and the most relevant most of the time, prevents the chain from "squirming" in the bow roller and transmitting the noise throughout the boat."

We started using a single nylon snubber on our all-chain rode in the early 1970's. It had but one purpose: To drastically reduce the noise of the chain dragging over rocks. Use of the snubber to relieve the windlass gears of surge forces was only a small benefit, unless there were storm conditions.

Liberty2015 said:

Bruce,

Mine is from Muirs and is a double line v, each side being 6 metres each. Works quite well and we use it all the time.

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I checked their site but only found a single line bear claw, similar to my DIY one. I did see a "Devil`s Claw", more what I have in mind but it is for securing the anchor on the bow roller, and has other connections at the other end. Maybe I need to look harder. There is something on Defender`s site with lines attached, but all I really want is the plate with a curled over end and slot, to grip the chain, I`m not keen on importing rope I can buy here.

Bruce,

Yes I checked the site, and could not see the one they supplied to me last November ?
I will take a photo of mine next weekend and post the pictures. It is a fairly simple set up and easy to set up the dual lines.

Cheers Chris D Liberty

"So that in an emergency it can't be reached from deck?"

In almost every problem with an anchor the most common concept is to haul aboard the anchor , clear it and attempt a reset , perhaps in a different spot with better holding.

Just letting more scope out seldom works esp if there has been a big change , was 5K-15K ,now 45K from a different direction,in the anchorage.

A during desperation dump of loads more scope If the load is high the 1/4 line will simply snap.

Bruce,

I bought a chain hook from Muirs a month or so ago - it hooks onto the chain and has a large loop at the rear - plenty of room to attach two good size ropes - need to do the rope work yourself though.

I don't see the problem, quite a few boats use a snubber connected to a lower eye. If you start dragging or need to move, raise the anchor as usual the snubber's chain hook comes up attached to the anchor chain, un hook it, secure the chain hook at the end of the snubber on deck or the pulpit and raise the anchor the rest of the way as usual . Then move or re anchor. No different than a single or bridal snubber.
I don't have one but can see the advantage, it could reduce the scope calculation by the 5-6 feet from the bow pulpit roller to the waterline.

Why are all the anchors dragging again? Wrong or too small an anchor?

The use of a lower attachment for a snubber probably started 100 years ago, when cruising and voyaging in small sail boats began to get popular.

Many boats of that era had bowsprits which had a lower stay for up lift support.

Frequently it was a good sized chain.

An anchor line or chain from the bow could rub on the lower bob stay , wearing both out.

Anchoring with the line going over the bowsprit increased the loads , esp if the boat veered in the breeze.

THe anchor point for the bow spirit lower stay had to be quite strong so there was little extra work to use the setup.

sunchaser said:

Why are all the anchors dragging again? Wrong or too small an anchor?

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Because of bad technique 95% of the time.

This boater is confused! In all of my 45 plus years of boating on commercial, pleasure and tugs, when it came time to anchor the anchor was 'dropped' followed by the chain and either or cable or line. 'Snubbers' or double lines never employed. What is 'sailing' on a single anchor system as discribed above meant to mean? That the boat swings like a compass with wind and tide?
It just sounds like added activity making anchorge complex beyond historical anchoring. Is this thread meant to echo the huge number of different anchors in terms of what is 'Best'?

Al-(KISS)-Ketchikan

sunchaser said:

Why are all the anchors dragging again? Wrong or too small an anchor?

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Exactly. It's bandaiding a problem that should be a problem IMO.

Al said:

This boater is confused! In all of my 45 plus years of boating on commercial, pleasure and tugs, when it came time to anchor the anchor was 'dropped' followed by the chain and either or cable or line. 'Snubbers' or double lines never employed. What is 'sailing' on a single anchor system as discribed above meant to mean? That the boat swings like a compass with wind and tide?
It just sounds like added activity making anchorge complex beyond historical anchoring. Is this thread meant to echo the huge number of different anchors in terms of what is 'Best'?

Al-(KISS)-Ketchikan

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Not having been witness to your anchoring experiences and the boats, equipment and weather conditions involved, it's impossible to answer your question.

sunchaser said:

Hearsay I know, but why are snubbers as described in most quarters even necessary? Are our boats designed with a weak link permitting the bow to pull off in a 10 knot gale? How about those of us that don't care how noisy the front quarters are?

So these basic musings raise the subject of why are not all the commercial fishing boats lying at anchor not using long droop in the water snubbers? How about the plus 75' yachts I have been on not hanging a little rope off the bow attached to an anchor chain 30 feet down? How about the few tens of thousands of 30 foot SeaRays lying at anchor all over the interior lakes without a snubber?

Why do those with a rope rode not use a snubber? Is a truly necessary snubber nothing more than a short strong line to affix the anchor chain to a stout part of the boat?

Click to expand...

Hawgwash said:

So, someone has spoken the unspeakable.
I would like to know how many homegrown BCers who spend most of their time on the hook, be it all chain or not, who regularly use a snubber.

Click to expand...

We are at anchor most of the time when we are in the central coast. Most larger recreational vessels I see at anchor use a snubber with an all chain road. WRT commercial vessels, they typically have a rope road after a length of heavy chain. The rope rode has more stretch than chain and doesn't jar the boat as much. The FV windlass is typically a very heavy duty hydraulic set up with an equally beefy dog to hold the drum in place.

Jim
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