Going to look at 2 boats. . .how do you figure what a fair offer is?

Saturday morning, going to look at these 2:

1978 Marine Trader 40 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1981 Albin 36 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I'm looking to live aboard at least 4-5 years then decide if I want to continue doing so or move back on land and put down some roots. Currently living aboard my 33ft sailboat for over 2 years now.

I'm excited to look at the Albin. Looks to have been, at least better than the other 10 boats I've looked at, taken care of and updated some. Only worry I have is it might be too small. . .

The MT 40 is, well. . .just that much bigger and I'm curious. It looks like the opposite of the Albin as far as care and updating. . .but if it could be had for a good price, it might be worth it?

Both look like they have leaked in the past. I'm aware of the decks, windows, and iron tanks. I'll go over them both carefully before paying someone else too. . .I've also come to accept the type of boat I want, with my lower end budget, is going to require some amount of work to be done.

If the either of them pass the "ass test", I might consider making an offer. Just how do you determine what a good offer is? Automatically Knock off 20% and see if they go for it? Is there a general base value for boats like these (or any boat)? I've been given the advice before to subtract out cost of repairs/upgrades, but sometimes I come back with them owing ME money

I imagine there is a base value for a type of boat that isn't a total wreck. . .

Any and all advice is welcome and appreciated!

This only my opinion. Everyone has an opinion, right? I would find out how long it's been on the market. Some boats have been for sale for 2 years. The 20% rule is a good base. A boat in good shape, on the market a few months will say no. Maybe they come up with a counter offer? A boat in bad shape on the market for 2 years, I would go 40%. Why not? There are plenty of boats out there.

Before you make an offer have the boat surveyed and they will give you a condition of the boat and a value.

cool beans said:

Saturday morning, going to look at these 2:

1978 Marine Trader 40 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1981 Albin 36 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I'm looking to live aboard at least 4-5 years then decide if I want to continue doing so or move back on land and put down some roots. Currently living aboard my 33ft sailboat for over 2 years now.

I'm excited to look at the Albin. Looks to have been, at least better than the other 10 boats I've looked at, taken care of and updated some. Only worry I have is it might be too small. . .

The MT 40 is, well. . .just that much bigger and I'm curious. It looks like the opposite of the Albin as far as care and updating. . .but if it could be had for a good price, it might be worth it?

Both look like they have leaked in the past. I'm aware of the decks, windows, and iron tanks. I'll go over them both carefully before paying someone else too. . .I've also come to accept the type of boat I want, with my lower end budget, is going to require some amount of work to be done.

If the either of them pass the "ass test", I might consider making an offer. Just how do you determine what a good offer is? Automatically Knock off 20% and see if they go for it? Is there a general base value for boats like these (or any boat)? I've been given the advice before to subtract out cost of repairs/upgrades, but sometimes I come back with them owing ME money

I imagine there is a base value for a type of boat that isn't a total wreck. . .

Any and all advice is welcome and appreciated!

Click to expand...

I got some very good advice when I was looking for our last sailboat. The question was "Are you looking for a deal, or a boat? Those are two very different things."

First time around I was looking for a deal. Found one too. Second time around I was looking for a boat. Same for this third and latest time. The wife and I have been much happier with our good boat than our good deal. It was just as much work with a lot fewer surprises.

I had fun and learned a lot both ways.

If all else fails, employ a buyer's broker you trust. They'll have access to soldboats.com. It's not perfect, but comps are probably the closest objective data for valuation. The issue is that it's almost impossible to get a true comparable boat because they're so condition dependent.

questionmark said:

I got some very good advice when I was looking for our last sailboat. The question was "Are you looking for a deal, or a boat? Those are two very different things."

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Excellent advice....

You want to pay as little as possible for the boat. You don't know the owner you're never going to know the owner you don't have to be friends.

What you want to do is offer as little as possible to keep the owner at the negotiating table. If you offer anything more than that you're just giving away your money.

Study the owner. How much can he sell the boat for? He cannot sell the boat for less than he can sell it for.

How long has the boat been on the market? These are all very important things to know and can influence how much you offer, or how much less than the asking price you offer.

Good luck and have fun on Saturday, Cool Beans. That Albin doesn't look half bad, for the money.

As to pricing, if you feel like the asking price is reasonable, you could offer to pay that or somewhere close to it, but contingent on a satisfactory survey and sea trial. That way you have an exit door if the boat has needs you don't care to pay for. Alternatively, you can propose that the seller make a price concession based on some estimates to address those needs.

If you've been accustomed to living aboard a 33' sailboat, a 36' motor vessel would probably seem relatively spacious - at least for a while. Possessions have a way of expanding to fill the space available!

Find a surveyor who has access to soldboats.com and he can show you the actul sales data on virtually any model

All of the above...

...but ask yourself "what is this boat worth to you?" The answer to that question should influence your decision.

Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

I am also going through the same process you are (moving up). Have just listed my 38' Chris Craft Corinthian that would suit your needs completely. Tons of living and storage space. Have owned her for the past nine years with many upgrades. Mechanically & cosmetically, you will say "wow".


Integrity Yacht Sales (Deale, MD)=

Soldboats.com data is only as valid as what the selling brokers enter. In a perfect world, they would always enter the actual selling price. It's not a perfect world, but it is a place to start. A surveyor can sometimes get this data for you, but a "Buyer's Broker" can, too. IMHO, the Buyer's Broker is the place to start. We have received soldboats data on a couple of boat's we're inspecting this weekend, and prices are all over the map, varying by as much as 25% within one model year and one year from sale date.

Get the comps, inspect the boat yourself, and make your offer with the survey/sea trial contingencies. As has already been stated, after the survey/sea trial, you can adjust your offer or walk away. Hopefully your broker will assist you in developing a fair offer.

Are you looking for a deal, or a boat? Me? I'm looking for both. It's a business transaction. Try to keep emotion out of it... as difficult as that can be when "The One" appears on the radar.

Phil Fill said:

Before you make an offer have the boat surveyed and they will give you a condition of the boat and a value.

Click to expand...

Usually you make the offer and THEN you do a survery.

Haven't seen you in a while, PF....good to see you around!!!!

Throw a number like $30,000 out there and see what the reaction is.

They'll tell you what there real bottom is,

I used a buyer broker for our current boat and strongly second the previous suggestions to go this way.
I think the buyer broker can sometimes gather intelligence re the buyers situation and what they will / won't accept and they can sometimes get access to prior sales data. I let my broker handle the negotiations with my inputs & upper limit and he negotiated a price below what I was willing to pay. Including all the contingencies mentioned by others.

One question I always look to get answered is "why is the seller looking to sell"? You don't always get the truth but it can sometimes give you useful info for negotiations. I also want to know how long it's been on the market.
Knowledge is power in negotiations and I've been surprised at owners that tell you stuff that helps you... don't be afraid to ask and ask again to see if answers are consistent or they "forgot" some of the story???

Good Luck

Information is key, I always look up the seller, find out what I can learn about him, and his or her situation.

I always get the "keep the emotion out of it advice" which I might not understand. . .there has to be a "Darling!" moment, right?

I mean, I've looked at 10 boats so far. 4 were turds, 6 were everything I was looking for in one way or another. . .but were "meh". . .they did nothing for me.

Maybe, well. . .it broke my heart to have to walk away from one of the turds. I guess I was able to stifle the emotion and keep myself from buying a nightmare project, lol.


The sellers broker is the one I made contact with (yacht broker), how do I get a hold of the seller?

Am I looking for a Deal, or a Boat?
. . .I'm looking for both! But I've also been on a Snipe hunt, so. . .

Would prefer "Boat" that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But I would jump on a "Deal" that truly only needed TLC. The Albin does look to be more of a "Boat".

Blissboat, the room in my Ranger33 is probably equivalent to a Catalina 27, lol. The Albin should be cavernous in theory, but when I start looking. . .it's easy to start eyeballing bigger and bigger. Especially when you can add years to a financing loan (probably not the nest idea).

I appreciate yalls advice! I let you know what I discover tomorrow!

I got a third off asking for my boat and still, after an excellent survey, I paid 10,000 too much. There is always something you either think is not important or you just completely miss that will bite you later so start




low.

My friend (I know, its surprising, but I have a few) paid 130,000 for a boat that was asking 299,000. It smelled like sewage and so it sat there for 6 months. He put in a low offer and it was accepted. He had to replace the holding tank and it took about three gallons of bleach and a bottle of Vicks and he basically stole it.

Also, don't be fooled by lists that are largely maintenance - its good that the maintenance is done but "new washers in the tap" is a huge difference from "new taps."


Start low.

JDCAVE said:

All of the above...

...but ask yourself "what is this boat worth to you?" The answer to that question should influence your decision.

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This is the best advice. Purchasing a boat is not a competitive event. Figure out how much the boat is worth to you. If you can get the boat for that price, it is a good deal.

cool beans said:

I always get the "keep the emotion out of it advice" which I might not understand. . .there has to be a "Darling!" moment, right?

I mean, I've looked at 10 boats so far. 4 were turds, 6 were everything I was looking for in one way or another. . .but were "meh". . .they did nothing for me.

Maybe, well. . .it broke my heart to have to walk away from one of the turds. I guess I was able to stifle the emotion and keep myself from buying a nightmare project, lol.


The sellers broker is the one I made contact with (yacht broker), how do I get a hold of the seller?

Am I looking for a Deal, or a Boat?
. . .I'm looking for both! But I've also been on a Snipe hunt, so. . .

Would prefer "Boat" that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But I would jump on a "Deal" that truly only needed TLC. The Albin does look to be more of a "Boat".

Blissboat, the room in my Ranger33 is probably equivalent to a Catalina 27, lol. The Albin should be cavernous in theory, but when I start looking. . .it's easy to start eyeballing bigger and bigger. Especially when you can add years to a financing loan (probably not the nest idea).

I appreciate yalls advice! I let you know what I discover tomorrow!

Click to expand...

cool beans
looking forward to hear about your visit
do you live in tidewater?

cool beans said:

Maybe, well. . .it broke my heart to have to walk away from one of the turds. I guess I was able to stifle the emotion and keep myself from buying a nightmare project, lol.

Click to expand...

You might examine that some more. Why was it a turd? Why did you like it anyway? Are there more like it, without the turd-hood-ness factor?

Or do you mean it was just a great deal, not a boat you actually craved?

-Chris

Greetings,
Mr./Ms. Dmac. Welcome aboard.

cool beans said:

I always get the "keep the emotion out of it advice" which I might not understand. . .there has to be a "Darling!" moment, right?

I mean, I've looked at 10 boats so far. 4 were turds, 6 were everything I was looking for in one way or another. . .but were "meh". . .they did nothing for me.

Maybe, well. . .it broke my heart to have to walk away from one of the turds.

Click to expand...

....just 10 boats so far? Don't be too quick here. There's always a good deal out there. Patience!


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

ranger42c said:

You might examine that some more. Why was it a turd? Why did you like it anyway? Are there more like it, without the turd-hood-ness factor?

Or do you mean it was just a great deal, not a boat you actually craved?

-Chris

Click to expand...

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1968-HATTERAS-Double-Cabin-102521787

Could have been a deal, I thought it was over priced to be honest. Needed flooring, new portlights, bigger holding tank, new appliances, "cockpit" painting, 1 decent soft spot in the deck. . .really bad DIY stick on teak veneer job on parts of the cabinets. . .but I loved the look and layout. Very classy That kind of list of deficiencies to me, as long as the structural and engine room are up to snuff, is a TLC boat that could be a "Deal".

But as usual, I shoo away the Broker so I can have a couple hours alone and start peeling back the layers!

And I find stuff this in the engine room. . .and bilges! Stem to stern, oily, sludgy mess. The bottom of the oil pan where it is immersed in water has deep flay rust starting. . .

Yeah, it all is fixable. But I don't want to deal with it. At least not that, I'd rather recore a deck if I'm choosing my project

And it makes me wonder, if an owner can live with that. . .what else am I NOT seeing?

Wow, what pictures. I'd walk just from looking at those.

That at most is worth perhaps 25K, too many other choices out there.

What else you see?

cool beans said:

but I loved the look and layout. Very classy

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Fair enough. My point was that -- if you can say what part of it you liked (even in this turd example) -- then you can maybe use that to identify other suitable candidates.

How many Hatteras DCs like that are on the market somewhere? Maybe some of those -- already know to probably offer with the look and layout you like -- would be in fine shape.


At this point, you're shifting from searching by cost into searching by desirable features (look and layout).

-Chris

ranger42c said:

Fair enough. My point was that -- if you can say what part of it you liked (even in this turd example) -- then you can maybe use that to identify other suitable candidates.

How many Hatteras DCs like that are on the market somewhere? Maybe some of those -- already know to probably offer with the look and layout you like -- would be in fine shape.


At this point, you're shifting from searching by cost into searching by desirable features (look and layout).

-Chris

Click to expand...

I've looked at 4 local. 2 41's, a 38 tri-cabin, and a 43. Various states of disrepair, neglect, and Deep Horizon spill bilges. The 38 I looked at had oil in the bilge, like 20 gallons! Not a slick on water, but like 8 inches deep

There is a nice one (via pictures, aren't they all?) in Gloucester for $63k. Maybe I need to get serious about financing, lol.

The big draw for me was the flush deck. I'm right there with guests, I'm right there where action is at while backing in, and I can see where I'm backing into.

cool beans said:

I've looked at 4 local. 2 41's, a 38 tri-cabin, and a 43.

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No, that means you've only looked at 2... and a couple other different boats

Go shopping for 41 DCs, man! Find out how many there are listed, eyeball 'em all! (Well, on-line maybe, at least.)

Unless the 38s and 43s all share the very same features you like, in which case track all those down too!



-Chris

Dmac said:

cool beans
looking forward to hear about your visit
do you live in tidewater?

Click to expand...

Yerp! Born & raised

Ran out of time yesterday, so I was only able to go over the Albin 36 with a fine tooth comb.

Biggest issue I found was a water line in the bilges and on the engine. In the forward berth the lower edges of the plywood were delaminating. I'm assuming this boat filled with water long enough to start rotting the wood? So yeah, that's no good

The deck is missing maybe 1/3rd of it's screw bungs. The screws themselves are at the level of the deck in spots. The teak trim is so weathered it's almost unrestorable. It's just a coat of cetol. . .All the teak (decks and trim) look like someone scrubbed them with a wire brush for several decades. Decks were solid even to jump on them though.

One of the SS water tanks has pin hole leaks in a weld seam.

I saw what everyone was talking about re: the iron tanks. No holes in the deck from screws, so the tops of the tanks just had that layer of dusty rust. The bottom edges and corners though, were flaky and moist

The engine itself does not look like it only has 169 hours on it and is only 8 years old. The broker says there is no paper work. I guess I'm supposed to just trust him

Liveaboard cons:

-No standing headroom in either head, and I'm only 5'10.
-The salon area was roomy enough, but there isn't anyplace to set up a TV/entertainment area. . .

Boat number 11, going to pass on. What is this boat worth to me? Nothing. . .even if it was perfect, not being able to stand up in the shower would drive me nuts!

I have Monday off, so I might run back out there to go over the Marine Trader 40. The teak deck on the boat was much better condition. All bunged and no wear from what I saw. The broker kind of ran me off the boat to look at the Albin 36 though, so. . .

ranger42c said:

No, that means you've only looked at 2... and a couple other different boats

Go shopping for 41 DCs, man! Find out how many there are listed, eyeball 'em all! (Well, on-line maybe, at least.)

Unless the 38s and 43s all share the very same features you like, in which case track all those down too!



-Chris

Click to expand...

Word. The 38 is different enough that it has a galley up. The 43 I think is the what the 41 evolved into (60's into a 70's boat). Some 43's online have washer/dryers installed.