Comfort versus Simplicity

Nice list Kevin, but where do see the balance between simplicity and comfort? For example, a LectroSan would be handy but adds to complexity?

I was a little surprised at such an experienced owner asking the questions, but there is nothing wrong with comparing ideas OP is sure to have with the thoughts of others, he seems willing to think "outside the square" and to consider the views of others. Wealth or lack of it is a personal comparative thing, in economics the rule is "wants exceed means", no matter how great the "means" may be.

BruceK said:

I was a little surprised at such an experienced owner asking the questions, but there is nothing wrong with comparing ideas OP is sure to have with the thoughts of others, he seems willing to think "outside the square" and to consider the views of others.

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The OP doesn't necessarily want advice, he said it himself..

"While we have a good idea of what this compromise may be I thought it would be fun for others in a similar situation to share their thoughts. I recognize that everyone will have a different opinion and that's great, the intent is share opinions and have some fun."

"So when I see a three-time Nordhavn owner asking an amateur boating forum for advice on how to spec out his upcoming new-build I'm afraid that I not only don't have a clue as to what suggestions I might offer that would even be relevant to what this person wants in a new boat, I don't even understand why the question is being asked as by now I would think someone with this boat ownership background would know exactly what he or she wants in a custom newbuild and is prepared to pay the price for it."

Seems to me someone needs to comprehend what he reads before making a comment like the above.

I say this simply because what the OP wrote in his post was pretty straight forward (for those of us who comprehend what we read) when he says:

"While we have a good idea of what this compromise may be I thought it would be fun for others in a similar situation to share their thoughts. I recognize that everyone will have a different opinion and that's great, the intent is share opinions and have some fun."

Need I say more...

dhays said:

Nice list Kevin, but where do see the balance between simplicity and comfort? For example, a LectroSan would be handy but adds to complexity?

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I do not see any reason to compromise comfort in a Coastal Cruiser.

Comfort compromises are budget driven most of the time.

As far as maintenance of a complex boat, well thats another issue based on ones aptitude, or check book. I may have a dimmunitive check book, but I'm pretty good at fixing things and having them stay fixed.

ksanders said:

I do not see any reason to compromise comfort in a Coastal Cruiser.

Comfort compromises are budget driven most of the time.

As far as maintenance of a complex boat, well thats another issue based on ones aptitude, or check book. I may have a dimmunitive check book, but I'm pretty good at fixing things and having them stay fixed.

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Good points. I don't have the same level of skills as you likely do but I usually can figure out how to do most things given enough time.

You mentioned that budget drives comfort compromise most of the time and I agree. Time is another significant limiting factor however. Anything that needs doing that I don't/won't pay someone else to do, means that I have to spend the time doing it myself. I just spent the last 3 weekends replacing and rewiring my battery bank. Weekends that I would have preferred to be out sailing.

Complex vs simple sometimes means the difference between being on the water or just being in the boat.

Greetings,
Mr. dh. "...being on the water or just being in the boat." For some reason as long as I'm aboard, even tied to the dock, I'm enjoying myself.
I don't necessarily have to go anywhere.

Diesel Duck 492 said:

Seems to me someone needs to comprehend what he reads before making a comment like the above.

I say this simply because what the OP wrote in his post was pretty straight forward (for those of us who comprehend what we read) when he says:

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Fair enough. I skimmed the post because it looked boring and jumped to a conclusion I shouldn't have jumped to. However I do stand by my statement that other than the "fun" aspect, it's a kind of dumb question as it has no answer, only about a zillion opinions that apply only to the person expressing them (which of course is the definition of an opinion). If that's all one is after then fine, have at it. But at the end of the day, everybody will be left standing exactly where they are now.

O C Diver said:

Guess I'm number 4 or 5.

Ted

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6

Rob

Marin said:

other than the "fun" aspect, it's a kind of dumb question as it has no answer, only about a zillion opinions that apply only to the person expressing them (which of course is the definition of an opinion). If that's all one is after then fine, have at it. But at the end of the day, everybody will be left standing exactly where they are now.

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Are TF members incapable of having their opinions informed and changed by being exposed to the opinions, experiences, and knowledge of others?

If that is true, that is quite sad.

Didn't need:

A built-in heater nor an air conditioner as the climate here is mild.

A second engine because going fast doesn't interest me.

A genset because power needs are low (no desire for an a/c, TV, microwave or electric stove), and most overnights are at a marina.


As said earlier, it often depends on how and where you'll be operating.

dhays said:

Good points. I don't have the same level of skills as you likely do but I usually can figure out how to do most things given enough time.

You mentioned that budget drives comfort compromise most of the time and I agree. Time is another significant limiting factor however. Anything that needs doing that I don't/won't pay someone else to do, means that I have to spend the time doing it myself. I just spent the last 3 weekends replacing and rewiring my battery bank. Weekends that I would have preferred to be out sailing.

Complex vs simple sometimes means the difference between being on the water or just being in the boat.

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Another aspect of time, is the time needed to restore and upgrade a boat vs the time needed to maintain it in a certain condition.

A boat that is 100% operational if the installations were done with a eye for reliability does not take that much maintenance, at least not when thinking of complex vs simple. A complex boat that is not at 100% or was fitted out by someone that is unfamiliar with how to do things reliably can take considerably more maintenance hours to keep up.

Greetings,

...7

dhays said:

Are TF members incapable of having their opinions informed and changed by being exposed to the opinions, experiences, and knowledge of others?

If that is true, that is quite sad.

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Even dressed up as a question, you cannot generalize like that. To my observation members vary; some have immovable ideas, the vast majority are open to rational discussion, like the population generally.

dhays said:

Are TF members incapable of having their opinions informed and changed by being exposed to the opinions, experiences, and knowledge of others?

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Beats the hell out of me. Personally, I have long since learned to base my boating-related opinions, decisions and actions on information-- as well as opinions--- from sources I know are credible, not on opinions and theories from totally unknown posters to an amateur boating forum.

This site is extremely entertaining at times which is why I continue to play with it but I would never act on anything I read here with the exception of material from two people who I know from sources independent of this forum to be totally credible and extremely experienced in their respective fields of expertise.

Hey there:

....8

ksanders said:

For the main features I would want...

Speed. The boat would need to be able to cruise quickly if we want it to, so we can get to where we want to go during daylight hours.

Draft. A fairly shallow draft would be important to get to all the places you want to go.

Bridge clearance. It has to be squat enough to do the loop.

Water and fuel. It needs enough water for a few days and or a watermaker. Fuel range would be enough to make 600 miles or so, as just in case capacity.

Flying bridge, yes it would need one. A pilothouse as well for the inside helm.

A covered cockpit with swim step (I have a cockpit but it's not covered)

A large salon for comfort, galley on the same level with stove, microwave, oven, trash smasher.

A large master stateroom , and a guest stateroom to stash stuff in.

Two heads, and a waste processing system for where thats legal.

Both heat and AC, probably a reverse cycle system would work.

Very quiet generator

entertainment, sat tv, internet.

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My cockpit isn't covered (I fish) and my air draft is 17ft (not counting antennas) Final score 75%

Codger2 said:

(WHEW!) At least there's two of us on here.

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Geez Walt, with no adverse weather and the Islands in plain view who needs nav equipment? One point placed 40 miles or so away should be good enough.

dhays said:

Nice list Kevin, but where do see the balance between simplicity and comfort? For example, a LectroSan would be handy but adds to complexity?

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I might comment on this one specific point. We're inshore 99% of the time, so can't often use our overboard macerator... and it bit the dust a couple years ago, anyway.

Not so much of an issue until I began (this year) keeping track of our pump-out costs, both money and time. And one of our owners discovered our "40 gallon" holding tank really only holds somewhere around an available 20-24 gallons. (I'm in the process of confirming his measurements as we speak.)

Assuming I re-purpose the money for replacing the current overboard macerator, it looks like I could pay for a Purasan hold-n-treat with that $$ and with about 4 years worth of pump-out costs... and I'd save all the time associated with periodic "visits" to the facilities.

So would that add to complexity? Yes, probably. Do they have a decent track record? Hmmm... still studying on that.

But we have an electric freshwater head, and it hasn't seemed to be much of a maintenance headache. Some fixes have been needed, over time -- pump assembly replaced, inlet solenoid replaced, joker valve replaced once -- but given that's over a 13 year lifetime so far... that's not such a big deal.

If the Purasan is similar... it doesn't seem like that would be adding a big maintenance nightmare. And it seems like I'd be gaining time and flexibility.

-Chris

ranger42c said:

I might comment on this one specific point. We're inshore 99% of the time, so can't often use our overboard macerator... and it bit the dust a couple years ago, anyway.

Not so much of an issue until I began (this year) keeping track of our pump-out costs, both money and time. And one of our owners discovered our "40 gallon" holding tank really only holds somewhere around an available 20-24 gallons. (I'm in the process of confirming his measurements as we speak.)

Assuming I re-purpose the money for replacing the current overboard macerator, it looks like I could pay for a Purasan hold-n-treat with that $$ and with about 4 years worth of pump-out costs... and I'd save all the time associated with periodic "visits" to the facilities.

So would that add to complexity? Yes, probably. Do they have a decent track record? Hmmm... still studying on that.

But we have an electric freshwater head, and it hasn't seemed to be much of a maintenance headache. Some fixes have been needed, over time -- pump assembly replaced, inlet solenoid replaced, joker valve replaced once -- but given that's over a 13 year lifetime so far... that's not such a big deal.

If the Purasan is similar... it doesn't seem like that would be adding a big maintenance nightmare. And it seems like I'd be gaining time and flexibility.

-Chris

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That's one added complexity I can live without. Like my 80 gallon holding tank!

Ted

CPseudonym said:

Some of you get quite a bit of exercise jumping to conclusions. A few of you should probably visit the chiropractor now. The OP never said he didn't know what he wanted. He asked simply what you may want if starting with a blank sheet of paper as he is.

As we are about to be boat less similar to John it is a topic we are currently pondering too.

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OMG Craig... You without your Owens will be like the Delta w/o economical displacement.

May I suggest Tollycraft for your next boat???

Seek and ye shall find. Seattle CL is a great sales avenue to pursue. Coming down by bottom or trailer not too costly... considering the fordable boat prices available.

There are often Tolly's for sale in Bay area too!

Happy Boat-Search Daze! - Art

Configuration is choice number one. For a loop/coastal cruiser it's about space...inside and out. Aft cabin sundeck motoryacht with cockpit (AKA Yachtfish) is hands down winner.

How I use the boat determines what is useful vs overly complex. For me in mostly ICW and near shore boating a watermaker required too much maintenance. I did notice that things I used frequently tended to be more problem free than things rarely used. So I would look at that if building new.


The one big PITA for me was always difficult and awkward dingy launching. That would be an issue I would really like to improve to make my boating experience more enjoyable.

"The one big PITA for me was always difficult and awkward dingy launching. That would be an issue I would really like to improve to make my boating experience more enjoyable. "

The four most popular options are Simpson-Lawrence, Wells Marine, Atkins and Hoyle, and Kato davits.

"Time passes, things change" - Don Henley

It's interesting to read the diversity of thoughts and ideas that have been bandied about in this thread. Being in a similar situation to the OP, I soaked in all the information I could glean from what has been written thus far. For the Admiral and I, it's all about compromise. Her wants/needs differ from mine, and the rub lies in trying to meet them all... to the extent possible. Hence, I read here, and learn.

I like my creature comforts (i.e., watching a decent TV picture at night before bed, AC in the FL heat, and a comfortable bed). If being comfortable means having a noise maker, or a system that might break, so be it. If I'm not comfortable, I'm not enjoying myself, so what's the point?

Not being as flexible as when I was younger, reasonable access to all areas for maintenance is key for me. It's a must... not a creature comfort. If I can't reach it to fix it, that's a problem. This was one of the issues that drove me to grow to hate our previous boat. I refuse to sit on a main engine to work on a generator... but that's another story. I'm sure you get my point.

My wife prefers a galley up, and a domestic fridge. I can see her point. A larger fridge means better, more convenient storage of perishables... but it has a cost. She spends a lot of time in the galley, so wants something of a view and some natural light. I don't blame her for that, either. That said, she's ok with a down galley with only 2-3 steps, because not being ok with it means our choice of boats is severely limited. She also understands, and is ok with, the 12v/110v fridges that are out there. It's want vs. need.

We both prefer to cook with gas, but it'll be me that has to lug the propane bottles to/from from the flybridge (assuming that's where they're stored). She gets that I don't really want to do that (and won't always be able to do it), so she's ok with an electric range/oven.

Single vs. twins: I'm not even going to open that can of worms here.

Anyway, please keep those ideas coming, as I am learning/remembering a lot from them.

O C Diver said:

That's one added complexity I can live without. Like my 80 gallon holding tank!

Click to expand...

Heh... I was pretty OK with our "40-gallon" waste tank, too... until we started taking a closer look. Labels aside, exterior dimensions say max capacity is no more than 37.5 gallons. Interior dimensions reduce that due to wall thickness, but the locations of the inlet and outlet ports are the real culprits.

Now that I think it's closer to "I can add 23.85 gallons before I have to pump it out again" -- I'm not as pleased as I was before.

OTOH... I should have also mentioned that installing a Purasan will likely add to winterization chores, too. Haven't fully researched that...

-Chris

Well I'm not #8. We cruise through some confusing areas as far as courses are concerned. I find it very helpful to study the charts and layout a course in advance on the chartplotter. In open waters, yes, we simply place a waypoint way out in front. Perhaps I'm 7 1/2?

ranger42c said:

I might comment on this one specific point. We're inshore 99% of the time, so can't often use our overboard macerator... and it bit the dust a couple years ago, anyway.

Not so much of an issue until I began (this year) keeping track of our pump-out costs, both money and time. And one of our owners discovered our "40 gallon" holding tank really only holds somewhere around an available 20-24 gallons. (I'm in the process of confirming his measurements as we speak.)

Assuming I re-purpose the money for replacing the current overboard macerator, it looks like I could pay for a Purasan hold-n-treat with that $$ and with about 4 years worth of pump-out costs... and I'd save all the time associated with periodic "visits" to the facilities.

So would that add to complexity? Yes, probably. Do they have a decent track record? Hmmm... still studying on that.

But we have an electric freshwater head, and it hasn't seemed to be much of a maintenance headache. Some fixes have been needed, over time -- pump assembly replaced, inlet solenoid replaced, joker valve replaced once -- but given that's over a 13 year lifetime so far... that's not such a big deal.

If the Purasan is similar... it doesn't seem like that would be adding a big maintenance nightmare. And it seems like I'd be gaining time and flexibility.

-Chris

Click to expand...

ranger42c said:

Heh... I was pretty OK with our "40-gallon" waste tank, too... until we started taking a closer look. Labels aside, exterior dimensions say max capacity is no more than 37.5 gallons. Interior dimensions reduce that due to wall thickness, but the locations of the inlet and outlet ports are the real culprits.

Now that I think it's closer to "I can add 23.85 gallons before I have to pump it out again" -- I'm not as pleased as I was before.

OTOH... I should have also mentioned that installing a Purasan will likely add to winterization chores, too. Haven't fully researched that...

-Chris

Click to expand...

I've had a waste treatment system either a Purasan or electroscan on my boats for many years now.

If installed properly, and used within the manufacturers guidelines I have not found them to be a maintenance sore spot.

What I have found is that they make pump outs for the most part unnecessary.

On our current boat we have the best of both worlds. We have a holding tank, and can choose to either treat the waste, or we can choose a pump out where it is not leagle to discharge treated waste.

If we put the system in automatic mode it will treat as necessary to keep the holding tank from filling.

ksanders said:

I've had a waste treatment system either a Purasan or electroscan on my boats for many years now.

If installed properly, and used within the manufacturers guidelines I have not found them to be a maintenance sore spot.

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Thanks, Useful to know.

OP probably needs one, too. (Reverting to the thread.)



-Chris

Be interesting to learn how to winterise a dish washer and clothes washer.

40Gal of pink goop?