Volkswagen Diesel Engine

The emissions testing "defeat" was probably pretty simple to program, and should be simple to un program. Now that cars have all sorts of sensors connected to a master microprocessor, one way was to just check for the rear wheels (or front if front wheel drive) moving and not the other set. That is a pretty good indication that the car is running on a dyno on an emission test stand. Then turn on NOx controls and turn them back off when normal rotation is sensed. Even I could program that one.

Any one involved with developing the engine management code could have done it. Yes a fairly low level programmer could. But why would he want to. There is no benefit for him- no bonus, stock options, etc. if VW sells a lot of cars as a result. You need means, opportunity and motive. The low level guy had no motive.

Someone with those incentives ordered it done. Hopefully one of the low level guys will rat him out.

David

The software change is probably the easy part. The hard part is the hardware changes to comply with the EPA mandates.

Should ask some VW engineers why they decided not to use Mercedes Benz Bluetec and DEF. Cheating was probably easier and cheaper and no royalty payments. Oh, and Audi won't be saying the truth in engineering is really over at their competitors lab.

Donsan said:

The software change is probably the easy part. The hard part is the hardware changes to comply with the EPA mandates.

Should ask some VW engineers why they decided not to use Mercedes Benz Bluetec and DEF. Cheating was probably easier and cheaper and no royalty payments. Oh, and Audi won't be saying the truth in engineering is really over at their competitors lab.

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$335 per car would have been all it would have cost..They were warned by Bosch back in 2007. $335 is not insignificant ($3.6B for the 11M cars), but the financial hit VW has taken in Market value has already far exceeded that.
Fixes will result in lower MPG and performance... One of the key selling points of the TDi. This is a huge global deal and affects every owner of TDi equipped cars. My Beetle just depreciated like a stone. Sure glad it's a lease...It will be VW's problem soon..

VW fix would have cost $335 per vehicle

Ahhh, the squeegie defroster! It got me out of a drunk driving ticket because the cop was laughing so hard! Those were the days.

I loved my Corvair. Then my brother loved my Corvair. You just had to know how to drive it.

Howard

The most useful feature on my '59 turned out to be the sunroof. After a night of underage drinking, I ran it off a country road in PA and wedged it tightly between two trees. No way were those doors going to open. So I escaped through the sunroof. With blood streaming out of a cut forehead I staggered to the first lighted house I saw, which turned out to be the local constable's. He had a massive poker game going on, so I was not charged and he was not ratted out. Next day my dad pulled it out of the woods with his Jeep and I drove it home.

My first and only VW was a 1969 Beetle. Served me well for 19 years. Easy to service. I'm a Ford guy now. Needed to move because reality moves too.

Catch 22

1. VW modifies the affected engines so they comply with the fraudulent test results. Govt. happy, owners miserable, owners sue VW.
2. VW does not modify the engines. Owners happy performance unchanged but unhappy at allegedly polluting the earth(using Govt. standards). Govt unhappy at fraud and alleged pollution. Owners and Govt sue?
VW is big enough, worldwide enough, exposed enough, for this to have world economic effects. Some of their cars could be taken off the road, others will remain but suffer knock on effects.
You just need one seriously bad economic event to foul up the world economy. We have this, China slowdown, resource price deflation,and world commodity trader/miner Glencore tanking.
Hope I`m totally wrong. The reassuring thing about TF is there is sure to be someone say that. Go for it!

BruceK said:

1. VW modifies the affected engines so they comply with the fraudulent test results. Govt. happy, owners miserable, owners sue VW.
2. VW does not modify the engines. Owners happy performance unchanged but unhappy at allegedly polluting the earth(using Govt. standards). Govt unhappy at fraud and alleged pollution. Owners and Govt sue?
VW is big enough, worldwide enough, exposed enough, for this to have world economic effects. Some of their cars could be taken off the road, others will remain but suffer knock on effects.
You just need one seriously bad economic event to foul up the world economy. We have this, China slowdown, resource price deflation,and world commodity trader/miner Glencore tanking.
Hope I`m totally wrong. The reassuring thing about TF is there is sure to be someone say that. Go for it!

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I seriously think it is a bit of a stretch to think that the world economy is going to go to crap over the vw smog debacle.. vw will no doubt take a hit but some computer geek will write a fix and vw will make a big deal of recalling units to flash the computers and the world will again proclaim farfignugen or what ever the heck the word was.

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

I seriously think it is a bit of a stretch to think that the world economy is going to go to crap over the vw smog debacle.. vw will no doubt take a hit but some computer geek will write a fix and vw will make a big deal of recalling units to flash the computers and the world will again proclaim farfignugen or what ever the heck the word was.

HOLLYWOOD

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You are probably right - as far as owners of the cars in question are concerned, and new ones coming along will be compliant from the get-go. However, the penalties they are going to be hit with for flouting many countries strict emission standards are going to be considerable, and have long term effects. The devil will be in the detail. Then there will be the question of just how much it will cost to make the software, and possibly some hardware, recall fixes to make the existing ones compliant.

If it is just a computer program adjustment, which one suspects it might be if they are able to comply when testing is 'sensed', and then switch to 'dirty' mode for better fuel consumption and more power when not, that might not be that bad. But if for continuing on-road reliability and mileage, some actual parts have to be replaced, that could be huge. The other interesting fact, which will emerge no doubt over time, is just how big the economy and power losses will be. At the very least, I think we won't see the ad which ends with a smug..."Das auto", again in a hurry...

Watch this space...as they say...whoever they are...

I expect just a software change and will loose about 2 miles per gallon based on the advertised EPA numbers vs what we actually get with out TDI. As soon as it is off warranty it will get chipped ...pull the chip for smog test and pop it back in when done.

So far the numbers I have read on the costs to VW are child's play compared to the hit BP had for their Gulf O'Mex fiasco.

The way I look at it, any costs to VW are in effect transfer payments. VW pays consumers, dealers, governments, lawyers, etc and they get to spend the money. No real concern for economic slowdown unless the hit is so big VW goes under but even then, it would be Chapter 11 type bankruptcy and not a Chapter 7 type bankruptcy or whatever equivalents they have in Germany.

Local communities with VW plants must be very concerned about the fallout. VW built a $1 B assembly plant for Passats in my home town, Chattanooga, TN a few years ago. I think it's the only VW manufacturing facility in the US. It employs over 3000 and claims a $12 B positive impact on the area's economy. Lots to lose if the worst happens . . . for the stupidest of reasons.

I have owned TDI's since 2003. Had an 03, 06, and 09 Wagon back to 06. Never had any trouble with them, 06, 09 if rechipped I estimate top speed around 140 mph. Govenour kicks in on my US models @ 130. Tried it once in Big Bend country, SouthWest Texas.

0 to 60 7-8 seconds. Very peppy. Drove the length of Tennesse west to east at 75 mph got 50 mpg. They handle like a sports car, very German.

The EPA standard they were tricking is based on junk science, as FF said but that still does not make VW's stunt right. They should have gotten the other diesel makers together and sued the EPA and US Government. That would have been the right way to do it. It appears German attitude of superiority and arrogance has caught up with them.

They are not the only one caught up here. The Dodge 5.9 Cummins ceased in 2007. Dodge had to upsize. Bye bye 3/4 ton Dodge @26 mpg.

And how will VW compensate owners for loss of resale value which will be an issue fixed or not?

Mule said:

The EPA standard they were tricking is based on junk science, as FF said but that still does not make VW's stunt right. They should have gotten the other diesel makers together and sued the EPA and US Government. That would have been the right way to do it. It appears German attitude of superiority and arrogance has caught up with them.

.

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No junk science at all. In crowded areas NOXs are big smog producers affecting not only air quality but human health as well. Having spent time working in CA and China and seeing the effects of NOXs, diesel exhaust indeed is a problem as compared to gasoline engines.

Some years ago in CA I was involved with selling AQ credits to another industry and became acutely aware of NOX realities. VW is in for a tough ride, possibly worse than deflate gate

hmason said:

And how will VW compensate owners for loss of resale value which will be an issue fixed or not?

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I suspect the only re-dress will be through Class Action suits...

Which means Owners will get $25 each and the lawyers will recoup hundreds of millions...

My best Beetle story was watching some young guy in very cold ski country weather warming up his beetle so it would turn over.
He warmed it by putting a hubcap full of burning gasoline under the oil pan.
True story.

Heron said:

I suspect the only re-dress will be through Class Action suits...

Which means Owners will get $25 each and the lawyers will recoup hundreds of millions...

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Nope. Owners will get a $25 credit IF they buy a new VW.....sigh.

The NY Times had an interesting article today on the VW fiasco. It said that in 2008 after investing millions, maybe billions in a new diesel engine, it discovered it couldn't meet the EPA emissions requirements. So it came up with the cheating software.

Now obviously with the software in emissions mode, it could meet those requirements, but I suspect that driveability, power, economy suffered. So instead of going back to the drawing board and using other NOx control technologies, they cheated. It was a conscious decision made at a very high level.

So as some have speculated here the fix may not be easy without compromising performance as it may require more than a software flash. Supposedly VW will announce the fix on Wednesday. Stay tuned.

David

Compromising performance?

Well there's lots to compromise. We drove a 2012 VW diesel sedan for a day while our Golf was getting a new timing belt. Unbeliveably fast. You could take away 25% of the power and few would complain .. only the car buffs that read sports car magazines would even notice.

We bought a new Jetta (14) turbo gas. Don't really see why people like the diesel. The gas car got 35mpg average. Who needs more milliage than that? And true the diesel was very quiet and smooth ....... for a diesel. But not as smooth and quiet as a gaser. And they cost much more .. and for what I say. Nada IMO.

The Jetta wasn't very civilized so we got a Honda Accord. Magic car and I especially like the CVT trans. That's a huge breakthrough in automotive design .. assuming they don't fail too often.

djmarchand said:

The NY Times had an interesting article today on the VW fiasco. It said that in 2008 after investing millions, maybe billions in a new diesel engine, it discovered it couldn't meet the EPA emissions requirements. So it came up with the cheating software.

Now obviously with the software in emissions mode, it could meet those requirements, but I suspect that driveability, power, economy suffered. So instead of going back to the drawing board and using other NOx control technologies, they cheated. It was a conscious decision made at a very high level.

So as some have speculated here the fix may not be easy without compromising performance as it may require more than a software flash. Supposedly VW will announce the fix on Wednesday. Stay tuned.

David

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Back when the TDI's were coming back on market with the common rail, the word amongst gear heads was that the EPA would not allow SCR/DEF NOx control because owners could not be trusted to refill the tanks. So they had to come up with an alternate strategy, the lean NOx trap or LNT, which was not as effective as SCR/DEF.

Not sure if that is true, but remember reading such way back when...

What a mess. I really enjoy driving my 2001 TDI, and when it comes time to replace it, I would like to get another. They really do drive that well. Not sure they will stay in production after this, but I hope they do.

Ski in NC said:

Back when the TDI's were coming back on market with the common rail, the word amongst gear heads was that the EPA would not allow SCR/DEF NOx control because owners could not be trusted to refill the tanks. So they had to come up with an alternate strategy, the lean NOx trap or LNT, which was not as effective as SCR/DEF.

Not sure if that is true, but remember reading such way back when...

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On our ML-350 Bluetec, if the low DEF warning comes on, you can only start the car 16 times and then it will not start again until the DEF is refilled. The amount of DEF normally lasts the regular manufacturers maintenance cycle. I guess you would call it governance by software.

And so it begins. Just saw my first TV ad looking for plaintiffs...

VW Emissions Lawyer Goldberg Attorneys

VW Audi and Skoda vehicles with the offending 1.6/2.0 liter diesel engine have been withdrawn from sale here. I doubt there was any demand to meet.
VW is Germany`s fourth biggest employer. Diesels are more common than gas in Europe. There will be repercussions. On our last Europe visit to Spain and Portugal the Skoda Octavia 1.6L diesel rental car used 4.4 liters per hundred kilometers, covering long distances easily and comfortably.
I`m hoping my diesel Peugeot did not have its emissions "adjusted" for test purposes.

I have had 3 TDIs and currently have 2, a 2009 Jetta and a 2015 Golf. If I can I will opt out of any recall due to this. I did not buy these cars because someone said they are clean, I bought because of performance and mileage. My Jetta will get between 45 - 49 MPG at 70 and my Golf will get between 50 - 53! I'm about ready to do the DPF delete and a stage two tune on the Jetta.


BTW Diesels are not tested in our state.

Gulfstar 36,
You don't need that performance.
We need clean air more that cool cars.

LoL, how much do you think my 40 year old 4.236s pollute. If we all worry that much we all should scrap our boats and buy a sail boat.

manyboats said:

Gulfstar 36,
You don't need that performance.
We need clean air more that cool cars.

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Greetings,
Here we go....

djmarchand said:

The NY Times had an interesting article today on the VW fiasco. It said that in 2008 after investing millions, maybe billions in a new diesel engine, it discovered it couldn't meet the EPA emissions requirements. So it came up with the cheating software.

Now obviously with the software in emissions mode, it could meet those requirements, but I suspect that driveability, power, economy suffered. So instead of going back to the drawing board and using other NOx control technologies, they cheated. It was a conscious decision made at a very high level.

Click to expand...

Mazda has had a diesel version of its Mazda 6 in the works for a while. It was initially going to hit the market a couple years ago in the US but Mazda pulled it. They were able to meet the emissions standards without the use of an additive, but they weren't able to hit the performance targets that they felt their "Zoom Zoom" customer base expected. Sounds like VW faced the same decision but instead of sitting on a product until they can get it right, they decided to cheat.

With the potential bad press this is giving diesels in the US, I wonder what Mazda will do with its Mazda 6 project now?