Is this a decent DC setup?

Hawgwash said:

I guess I should ask how old the various batteries are but here is what he said about use...
The house bank is so big that you can sit for 3 days without starting the generator. You make your own water, have smart a charging systems and huge freezer capacity. She is totally equipped - heat, water, AC, freezers - with everything running you only need a short run on the main engines or 3 hours a day on the gen. to keep batteries up to max. Or sit for 2-3 days on the hook on batteries alone if you don't want to hear the gen.

Part of the reason for asking in the first place is, this is the second GB I've seen with a 1 ton flatdeck load of batteries down there and am wondering if they are outdated ('90s) systems.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't really pay attention to what the broker I saying in the listing.

1) how old are the batteries? How have they been used over the years? It's easy to find out how old the batteries are but you won't know if they've been abused or not.

2) the inverter charger...it might be 90's technology. Ask. Just because it is, doesn't mean it isn't working to spec. If it's a 3 stage charger, it's fine for now. As I said, if you purchased that vessel, wait a year before you drop major coin on the electrical system until you know how it's behaving. It may be just fine for several years. Or...factor that in to your offer. In my view this is just one part of the equation to consider with the purchase of a vessel.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Thank you all.
It seems the further we go here the more it looks like it is not a good setup after all. Is a proper assessment done by your everyday surveyor or do we need an opinion from a marine electrics guy?

Part of the problem is I don't know what the specs are telling me:
5 KW Engine driven alternator is being questioned, is that an impossible setup?

Scott:
Charger to small for the house set, will take forever to charge running gen-set, go up to 100amp charger better would be an inverter/charger if you can swing it.
Inverter/charger 2500A Trace; is this different? And what is the Xantrex TC 40+ 110V, then?

Jim:
It may be just fine for several years. Or...factor that in to your offer.

Yes, that's the idea. If I sort out that I need to sink 8-10 grand into this system and 20-30 or more into updating electronics, it does affect the valuation. Is 8 years still a good life expectancy for well maintained batteries?

I would remove half of the golf carts. I need two more to fit my charger but I have a 50' boat, no freezer, new large fridge and no air, I have to run the genset daily for 3 hours. With 6 I would have a buffer. With a 42 you should not need more power than me.

If you have a 5kw engine alternator that is about 400 amps. That's nice but will not be your charging system at anchor and it's too big for 6 golf carts. With 6 golf carts a 120 amp charger will do it, run the genset daily (or solar panels).

Electronics? If you have a radio and a pair of plotters, why change it? Latest is nice, but if the existing works, use them as a bargaining tool but keep them. Radios are $200 and a large plotter is $2500, the rest of the "suite" is just bling.

Hawgwash said:

How so?

Click to expand...

I have never heard of a 5kw engine-driven alternator, at least not in a recreational context, but my ignorance doesn't mean much. I have seen "high amperage" engine driven alternators (Balmar, for example), but those only go up to 160 amps (2kw), as I recall.

You don't need $20-30k for electronics. That's more than necessary...way out in the high end of things. 8 year old batteries. That's getting on. You can replace the batteries and the inverter/charger for $5,000 and that gets you 1125 amp hour trojan 105's, 2 group 24's and a Magnum 2812 with all the bells and whistles. If you can find a private electrician for $50-75/hr, figure on about 10 hours for re and re.

FF is right about too many batteries and optimally cabling them, but it really depends the loads and how deeply you discharge them.

Read through Nigel Calder's Book Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual. This should bring you up to speed on this topic.

3 summers ago the people on this forum helped me through some of these same issues and told me to get Calder and read it. I've read the electrical sections and some of it is actually starting to sink in. But it's a journey...it really is! I swapped out the batteries myself but decided that I needed to update the I/C because as you said it was 90's technology. I hired an electrician on the side and he installed the I/C for about $500. Can't say enough good things about the Magnum 2812. It's a great unit and is installed on the new Krogen builds.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawgwash
How so?

MYtraveler:
I have never heard of a 5kw engine-driven alternator, at least not in a recreational context,

=======

On Adagio's website, it is described as "5 KW ENGINE DRIVEN CRUISING ALTERNATOR"

Sounds as if it might be one of the alternators marketed as a cruising generator sometimes such as this one http://www.meps.com/New_Site/Documents/New_Items/Products/SeaPower_Brochure-kVA.pdf

Xsbank said:

Electronics? If you have a radio and a pair of plotters, why change it?...the rest of the "suite" is just bling.

Click to expand...

That's the spirit.
Last time I went from boats to bike, people were just catching on to an iffy GPS system (loran was everywhere) and we were going to AK using paper charts and "VFR." Most of the rocks are still in the same place.

I have moved on from dial phones and kick starters so some bling on a boat would be nice.

Engine driven 5kw alternator?
Is it possibly referring to a 5kw cruising alternator for AC power?
Double variable speed belt drives to provide the right RPM for 60hz, if
I remember correctly.

Ted

Let's go back to the OP and analyze each component. There is lot's of speculation here and not a little misinformation.

GENERATOR
8.5 KW Onan
5 KW Engine driven alternator

An 8.5 KW genset is more than enough to run a couple of A/C units on the hook, charge batteries, heat water, even power the wife's hair dryer. Maybe even too big if running A/C at anchor isn't required.

BATTERIES
House bank 12 X 6V Golf cart
Engine start 12V - D8
Gen. start 12V - HD Truck batt.

That's a lot of batteries. The engine and genset starting batteries are big for their useage, but ok. Just replace with a couple of sizes smaller- a Group 31 and Group 27 when needed.

Look at the wiring of the golf cart batteries. If they are wired with a jumper for each pair to produce 12V and all of the 12v positives wired to together and all of the negatives wired together to parallel them, then look on the net for better wiring schemes to eliminate voltage drops between batteries. Normally I wouldn't worry about this but six 12v pairs is enough to think about it.

Someone suggested removing half of the GC batteries. Why in the world would you want less?

Most cruisers unless they are full time on the hook live aboards, go out for 1,2 or 3 days at time. With 1,320 amp hours of capacity you will easily be able to do this with no recharging. Most cruisers unless they are power hogs use about 100 amp hours daily. Some can use 200 amps but even with that you can go 3 days without charging and still be above 50%.

When you get back to the dock, plug in to shore power and your batteries will be fully charged the next morning.

If you need to stay longer on the hook then you can fire up your generator and power the 100a Trace and the 40 amp Xantrex. That system won't charge at 140 amps for long, but 100 might be achievable. So run the genset until the battery voltage gets into float and shut it down. How long you run it depends on how many amp hours you use and how long you want to stay out.

If you move to another place then the 5KW propulsion engine driven AC (right?, maybe a Seapower unit, no longer made) can power the chargers, but the genset will work just as good. If it is an old Seapower unit, it may not be functional. If so junk it, not worth fixing.

ELECTRICAL
Inverter/charger 2500A Trace

The OP indicated this was a 100A charger. Nothing at all wrong with an older Trace. Trace was a manufacturer of heavy duty, solid equipment until Xantrex bought them and cheapened up the product.

BATTERY CHARGER
Xantrex TC 40+ 110V

An ok three stage charger.

So, like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with this system. I would not replace anything as long as it is working. Consider a more efficient wiring scheme for the GC batteries, an ACR or combiner ($100+) and a battery monitor (about $200). With all of that done I could cruise that boat indefinitely.

And FWIW you can spend anything you want to upgrade the navigation electronics. A modern but minimal Raymarine or Garmin system- small chart plotter and integrated radar can be added for less than $3,000 in parts. Or you can spend 3-5 times that amount for big displays upper and lower helm, an 8KW open array radar, etc.

David

Hawgwash said:

...Inverter/charger 2500A Trace; is this different? And what is the Xantrex TC 40+ 110V, then?...

Click to expand...

We have an Outback Charger 2800 watt inverter/charger. The charger side can put out a little over a 100amps. That's wired just for the house bank of 10-6VDC,T-105's. We also have a Xantrex TC40 that came with the boat. I wired that in to the start battery and to the house bank. I have not used it at the dock but since I had it, it's installed as a backup or if I want to charge the start battery. I'd keep both.

To define your AC/DC setup you need to predict your energy uses while sailing and while on anchor. I have made an OpenOffice Spreadsheet for my Bavaria 49 before setting off on an Atlantic crossing in 2012.

The sheet ONLY works correct in OpenOffice Calc.

Remove the .txt at the end of the filename.

Hawgwash said:

Thank you all.
It seems the further we go here the more it looks like it is not a good setup after all. Is a proper assessment done by your everyday surveyor or do we need an opinion from a marine electrics guy?

Part of the problem is I don't know what the specs are telling me:
5 KW Engine driven alternator is being questioned, is that an impossible setup?

Scott:
Charger to small for the house set, will take forever to charge running gen-set, go up to 100amp charger better would be an inverter/charger if you can swing it.
Inverter/charger 2500A Trace; is this different? And what is the Xantrex TC 40+ 110V, then?

Jim:
It may be just fine for several years. Or...factor that in to your offer.

Yes, that's the idea. If I sort out that I need to sink 8-10 grand into this system and 20-30 or more into updating electronics, it does affect the valuation. Is 8 years still a good life expectancy for well maintained batteries?

Click to expand...

I think the TC is a 40 amp charger, not enough by a long way for house but I would use it for system batts.

The Trice is indeed what I was talking about, 100amp would still take a while, that is a large house bank. Do you really need that much?

Load calculation would tell.

Wind or solar any help?

Canada, solar could be a bit of a challenge.

If a goal is to remove the starting batteries, what about replacing the starting batteries with supercaps and charge with the house batteries?

KAPower Supercapacitors - Ultracapacitors

they have two sets of connectors, one from the battery banks, and one set to the starting solenoids and starters.

They last nearly forever, save size and weight, and can charge up from nearly dead to charge in minutes, and give you another chance to start engines. You don't need a battery isolator from the main bank to the super cap since it only sips power to recharge the cap using it's internal controller.

The only downside is cost. Last time I looked into it, they were about $1000 each.

Stu

djmarchand said:

So, like I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with this system. I would not replace anything as long as it is working. Consider a more efficient wiring scheme for the GC batteries, an ACR or combiner ($100+) and a battery monitor (about $200). With all of that done I could cruise that boat indefinitely.

Click to expand...

David, thank you...
Is the Voltage Sensitive Relay Module in the pic the same thing a the ACR you talk about?

MYTraveler said:

I have never heard of a 5kw engine-driven alternator, at least not in a recreational context, but my ignorance doesn't mean much. I have seen "high amperage" engine driven alternators (Balmar, for example), but those only go up to 160 amps (2kw), as I recall.

Click to expand...

I have a 200a Charles and I think that's about the most you can get with a single belt. I also have never heard of a 400a alternator on a recreational boat, and fitting it to a FL120 seems extremely unlikely. And then there's the issue of regulating the charge into those flooded batteries. I think something got scrambled here.


Keith

Hawgwash said:

David, thank you...
Is the Voltage Sensitive Relay Module in the pic the same thing a the ACR you talk about?

Click to expand...

Actually, you have two battery combining devices. The Echo Charger (top of pic) takes voltage from the house bank and when it is above 13.5 it supplies 15 amps to the starting battery. That is one of my favorite types of "combiners" as it limits amperage and doesn't need big wire or fuse (except at the starting battery end).

The lower one, the voltage sensitive relay does the same thing. It looks your house batteries are split into two banks- the aux on the top (maybe for a bow thruster??) and probably the main on the bottom- can't read the label. This device ties the two battery systems together once the voltage on one gets up to 13.5. There is no current limiting and that it why it is installed with big wire.

Also your ABYC aware surveyor won't like all of the exposed DC+ terminals. I personally think of this standard as like the one that mandates belt covers on boat engines- reduces liability but keeps the knowledgeable owner from seeing what is going on. Also depends on if those devices are out of the way of any routine access.

David

Hawgwash said:

Yeah, rather have a still down there.
I thought that's what you meant but wanted to be sure you hadn't spotted something else in the picture, I missed.

Click to expand...

Still, now you're talking!

JDCAVE said:

Read through Nigel Calder's Book Boat Owners Mechanical and Electrical Manual. I've read the electrical sections and some of it is actually starting to sink in. But it's a journey...it really is!

Click to expand...

Thanks Jim, I've got a copy on hold at the library.

I was going to save Calder reading for rainy days but I hear we may not have many.

djmarchand said:

Actually, you have two battery combining devices. The Echo Charger (top of pic) takes voltage from the house bank and when it is above 13.5 it supplies 15 amps to the starting battery. That is one of my favorite types of "combiners" as it limits amperage and doesn't need big wire or fuse (except at the starting battery end).

The lower one, the voltage sensitive relay does the same thing. It looks your house batteries are split into two banks- the aux on the top (maybe for a bow thruster??) and probably the main on the bottom- can't read the label. This device ties the two battery systems together once the voltage on one gets up to 13.5. There is no current limiting and that it why it is installed with big wire.

Click to expand...

No thruster but does have 2 freezers, washer/dryer, AC, 50 gal HW tank and a 25GPH water maker.

Hawgwash said:

Thanks Jim, I've got a copy on hold at the library.

I was going to save Calder reading for rainy days but I hear we may not have many.

Click to expand...

It's an expensive book. I've got a Kindle copy and I DON'T like it in that format. It's too hard to find sections and I find I go back and forth between different topics. Also figures and tables are difficult to reference with the associated text. That said, it's easier to search the kindle edition.

50 gallon hot water tank??!!

Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Hawgwash said:

No thruster but does have 2 freezers, washer/dryer, AC, 50 gal HW tank and a 25GPH water maker.

Click to expand...

I suspect that all of those are AC driven appliances. So no clue what the "aux power bus" does.

David

djmarchand said:

I suspect that all of those are AC driven appliances. So no clue what the "aux power bus" does.



David

Click to expand...

...and not likely on the inverter, or shouldn't be if the AC panel is properly set up.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

JDCAVE said:

50 gallon hot water tank??!!

Click to expand...

Yeah, he tows it behind on a small scow. Wife likes long showers.

I think he confused the HW with holding when he wrote the specs.

Xsbank said:

...but remember the rule of thumb is 10% of your battery bank capacity is the largest size of charger you should use.

Click to expand...

I thought charger amp output should be at least 10% of the amp size of bank to be charged, ie the minimum. Is 10% really the max?
I`d agree the Owner is likely charging that massive bank while docked, before the 3 day cruise. Is there room for some serious solar somewhere on the boat? Maybe it`s not so hard to maintain the bank once the serious charging is done pre trip.
You don`t get a set up like that without owner interest, input, and quite some determination. It has to be an interesting boat. Obviously you`ll want to check battery age/condition with that investment in battery.

Bruce

My understanding is that with wet cells there is a maximum, not minimum, charging rate. The suggested maximum charging rate is 25% of the battery bank.

It is most likely that the 2500 watt Trace inverter / charger has a 100 amp charging rate. Add that to the 40 amp rate of the separate charger the OP is still way below the maximum suggested rate. If the inverter/charger is not being used as a charger the charge rate would be impractical (too low) for a boat not usually moored in a marina.

FF said:

If there is going to be a noisemaker upgrade , a pair of belts on the front to run a really powerful alt (with a good marine V regulator) will charge the house faster than any other method.

A cheap truck heavy duty unit can be 135A for under $150 or so, with external regulator wiring as std.

Click to expand...

Has anyone done this to a 8.5KW Kohler genset? The existing pulley and belt setup would not support 135 amp alternator, it would slip due to load. I would be interested if someone has figured out what parts to change out.

All of this did not address solar. I have a hardtop with 6 85 watt panels, 10 golf cart batteries. When the sun is shining I have enough charge to make the night pushing 3 Engle refers. If overcast might use the generator for an hour at the end of the day, again in the morning but as a general rule, no. If I want hot water, microwave and so forth, then genset.

Works for me great, and it seems your system is similar less the solar panels. Panels are getting really cheap, I saw a projection that soon as low as $.55 a watt.

I mentioned solar, however he is in Canada so a bunch less output, in fact over 50% less then us Florida folks. He would need more then double the number that we do regarding panels.

Given enough real-estate very workable of course.