Hybrid Boats

RE: Hybrid boats

The new boats are much easier to manage. Maneuvering the old "DC Electrics" was like learning to juggle in a mirror. To reverse the shafts you had to control 4 different rheostats, two for each shaft, field and armature. It was something you had to learn by muscle memory because if you thought about what you were doing you would get dizzy.

The Issaquah class were much nicer but the computer problems meant you had to expect a failure on each and every maneuver and be ready to over ride the system so the concentration was very fatiguing on the short runs.

The new boat are a delight in comparison. Here's a picture of the console on the Issaquah and one of the new boats, I can't remember which one it was, maybe the Wenatchee.

RE: Hybrid boats

markpierce wrote:

Diesel electric locomotive at Liston, Portugal harbor.

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I'll see your diesel-electric switch engine and raise you a diesel-AC electric road engine... *

Hybrid boats

RickB wrote:

Here's a picture of the console on the Issaquah and one of the new boats,

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I like the*shelves of "How to Fix Your Ferry" manuals*in the Issaquah control*room.*

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 06:08:10 PM

RE: Hybrid boats

Marin wrote:

I'll see your diesel-electric switch engine and raise you a diesel-AC electric road engine...

*

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Uh, oh.* My last "chip" is an external-combustion locomotive.




(Shay locomotive, Felton, California)

*

Hybrid boats

markpierce wrote:

*
Marin wrote:

I'll see your diesel-electric switch engine and raise you a diesel-AC electric road engine...

*

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Uh, oh.* My last "chip" is an external-combustion locomotive.

*

*Well, your external combustion engine in this case trumps them all.* While I don't like*old things when it comes to stuff I use every day, I can fully appreciate old stuff as it pertains to historical/nostalgic/sentimental value.* Steam engines are way cool.*

In the late '90s I had an opportunity to go the UK and take a one-week,hands-on course that would have*"qualified" me to be a steam engine driver.* The engine the course used was my favorite steam engine of all time--- a Gresley A-4 Pacific.* It was the center one in this photo, the "Sir Nigel Gresley."* The course was very expensive but regardless, my travel schedule at the time precluded my taking the course, and it is no longer offered using this locomotive.* One of my major regrets in my life.

Now, how can we hijack this thread even more?* We've pretty*much determined that hybrid electric is not a cost-effective conversion for recreational cruisers like ours.* So how about steam conversions?* Eric, Willy would look terrific with a stack spewing black coal smoke as you chuffed into Ketchikan.* What do you think?* And what about all those Nordic Tug conversions that could finally use the stack for what it's intended for.

Maybe Hustler could work up a photo of Willy or a Nordic Tug as a steam conversion......

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 07:28:48 PM

Hybrid boats

Here's a steamboat console:

And one for a slow speed diesel


-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 13th of January 2011 07:30:07 PM

RE: Hybrid boats

See, "new" steam. I love it.

RE: Hybrid boats

Marin, * * ...they'd prolly send the fire boat out to hose me. And yes I'd retain the stack on the Nordy and put it to use.

Diesel electric? YES that's the ideal trawler power. I'd have tripple screws, move the engine crossways and aft and move the water tanks fwd. The food of dreams lads.


Hybrids?
Baugh Humbug. Who needs them?

Hybrid boats

RickB wrote:

Here's a steamboat console:

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Whoa!* No wonder modern*life seems so much more complicated.

Here the fireman controls boiler water-level and the flow of fuel so as to control boiler pressure (she's eyeing the BP gauge).




The engineer would control the throttle, Johnson bar, rail sander, and brakes to control engine/train.**Still, on a boat one wouldn't have a rail sander or brakes!* But then the engineer didn't have to worry about steering the train.

*


-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 13th of January 2011 11:00:58 PM

Hybrid boats

Another advantage--- maybe--- with a steam conversion of a recreational trawler is that if you did it right, somebody would have to shovel the coal. And since we are busy navigating and talking on the radio and stuff, it would seem that the role of fireman would fall to the significant other. So instead of nagging in your ear---"Watch out for that buoy," "You're getting too close to that other boat," "How come the little boat symbol's not on the line?", "I think you're going too fast," "I think you're going too slow," "What's that funny noise?" you will drive in peace and quiet as your partner will be down under the cabin sole feeding the boiler.

The photo is of the restored "President," one of the last surviving examples of a steam-powered narrowboat.* They were not popular or practical as the powerplant took too much space away from the revenue-producing front end so the steam*era on the canals was very short lived and only*a few were made.*

On the other hand, the engine room was a great place to park the wife or kids to keep the boiler fed.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of January 2011 07:56:26 PM

RE: Hybrid boats

Keep em coming.This is great.*

RE: Hybrid boats

Marin wrote:On the other hand, the engine room was a great place to park the wife or kids to keep the boiler fed.

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Speaking of parking the kids ... here's one of the console on a modern diesel electric cruise ship. Actually it is one of three nearly identical panels with screens that can be dedicated to specific systems as needed.

BTW, the steamboat console shown controls a 30,000 hp turbine and two boilers, each delivering over 100,000 pounds of steam per hour at 900*F and 900psig.

RE: Hybrid boats

nomadwilly wrote:

Marin, * * ...they'd prolly send the fire boat out to hose me. And yes I'd retain the stack on the Nordy and put it to use.

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Why ? use a nuclear reactor to supply the steam to your turbine ,great mileage ,no visible exhaust and no need for cabin lights just use the built in glow in the dark feature. Or if your a traditonalist use a triple expansion engine instead of a turbine .

*

RE: Hybrid boats

Another major benefit of steam just occurred to me. It is very quiet. In the late 90s the preserved Southern Pacific 4-8-4 "Daylight" locomotive paid a visit to Seattle. A couple of our videographers are, like me, major train enthusiasts. We learned when the engine and its train would be leaving Seattle for Portland, so we went down to a grade crossing south of the city to shoot it going by. Eventually it came along, going probably 60 mph as it passed us. The track was level and the locomotive had already gotten its train up to speed. I was amazed as this huge thing bore down on us and passed that pretty much the only sound was the steel wheels on the steel rails. Some hissing from the air compressors and feedwater pumps but that was about it.

So a steam conversion of a recreational trawler would have the advantage of being very quiet. No more roaring Lehman or Cummins or Cat under the floor. Just a nice, quiet chuffing.

The photo shows what I think would be the perfect recreational trawler. Steam powered, so very quiet. The paddlewheel would provide a wonderfully relaxing "falling water" sound. Shallow draft for that gunkholing everyone seems to like to do. Ideal for exploring shallow waterways on the ICW for example. Marina moorage might be a bit of a problem.

As a historical note, dozens of these sternwheelers were built and used on the lakes and rivers of BC and the Yukon in the first half of the 20th century. Only a few remain today, preserved like this one. I don't believe any are actually operating.

They would not look good with reverse-raked pilothouse windows but they look very good with vertical windows.

RE: Hybrid boats

But Marin,A long time ago on TF you said you wanted your engines to roar when I suggested you repower w smaller engines. I guess I'll keep my DD idea to myself.

RE: Hybrid boats

Marin, below is a photo of a model of the ferry Solano.* Which such a boat, one could "troll,"*have several steam engines for power, as well as*trains at the same time.* The prototype carried Southern Pacific Railroad trains between Port Costa and Benicia at the Carquinez Strait.* It had a younger, near twin, the Contra Costa, but the CC was*slightly longer*and had a steel hull rather than one of wood.* The Solano ended up rotting along the Martinez shore, and the Contra Costa's hull was made into three barges.

RE: Hybrid boats

nomadwilly wrote:

But Marin,
A long time ago on TF you said you wanted your engines to roar when I suggested you repower w smaller engines. I guess I'll keep my DD idea to myself.

*

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If I'm gonna have diesels, they better SOUND like diesels.* If I'm gonna have steam, it better sound like steam.* I like the sound of the old Detroits.* I wouldn't want a boat with them because you have to tow a connected-up oil rig and refinery with you if you want to go anywhere of any distance, but I like their sound.

*

RE: Hybrid boats

markpierce wrote:

Marin, below is a photo of a model of the ferry Solano.* Which such a boat, one could "troll,"*have several steam engines for power, as well as*trains at the same time.

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Very cool.* When I was a little kid my mom would take me over to Tiburon to watch the Northwestern Pacific trains* in their yard there.* They also had a slip for railroad car ferries at Tiburon, and I think they had one in Sausalito, too, but I may be misrembering that. I don't know what the ferries were powered with at that time, but I suspect it was diesel or perhaps diesel-electric like the old Washington State ferries.* Or I suppose it could have been oil-fired steam turbine power.* Or maybe even oil-fired reciprocating steam engines.* I don't remember paddlewheels but I was just a wee lad and don't remember much about those days at all.

*

don't thrown out the baby with the bathwater'

Just found an older posting of mine on this diesel-electric subject and thought I might add it to this older discussion here.

This diesel-electric subject thread has certainly raised some lively and controversial discussions. Many want to claim that converting diesel engine mechanical power into electricity, and then back into mechanical power by an electric propulsion motor, just isn't economically feasible. Therefore chuck the whole idea aside when contemplating DE propulsion systems for boats.

I say 'don't thrown out the baby with the bathwater'. This technology is still in its infancy, and there are many more developments to explore....and some may come with other emerging technologies.

One of these new technologies will likely be the ever-increasing capabilities to store electrical energy....new 'batteries', or other such devices and mediums. This capability to store large amounts of electric energy is a technology we sorely need for our future in all sorts of endeavors, and I'm sure there are presently 100's of experimenters around the world working on this major technology.

I agree Innamore. For a strictly powerboat application that spends a small amount of time idling about or maneuvering at docks, etc, and subsequently mostly at speed on the open water, D-E does NOT make sense.....too many energy conversions between main motor and the prop. Thus many powerboats are not applicable DE candidates.

But one thing those DE systems do is break the mechanical link between the engine and the prop. This opens up a whole lot of possibilities for locating the main engines apart from the drive-props, and even the variety of prop-drives that might be employed.

For vessels with big house loads, a DE systems approach makes sense, as well illustrated by the big cruise ships.

Special maneuvering desires can be accommodated with DE systems. A diesel electric system can be shifted from fwd to reverse and back much more quickly than a conventional transmission. In addition the electric motors develop full torque at any speed, even down to 0 rpm. In conventional propulsion installations, the idle speed of the engine will be between 700-1000 rpms. With a typical displacement hull reduction-gear ratio of approx 2.6 to 1, the slowest propeller speed is 270rpm or more. By contrast, a DE propeller shaft can be turned as slowly as 1-rpm!

Furthermore DE systems are much more adaptable to 'steerable prop-drives. Talk about maneuverability!!

If we move beyond ' strictly powerboats', then we might see a use for DE systems aboard wide variety of other type vessels. I'll just give two examples where I wish to use them:

1) Sportfishing Vessels.
Whether pleasure or commercial types, these vessels spend considerable time in the 'trolling mode', usually quite a bit below their cruising speed. This trolling speed might well be accommodated with a DE system.
Gamefishing Design - a 65' mast-aft sailing catamaran.

2) MotorSailing Vessels.
In light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to bring the apparent wind forward to make the sails work harder, and the combination provides much better results than either motoring or sailing alone…… sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs

Motorsailing offshore is by far the most pleasant way to make passage, most of the time. With the engine barely above idle and a moderate amount of sail set, there is a synergy created by the apparent wind which generates more forward thrust than either one alone, with the bonus that you don't have to set large areas of canvas, which will have to come down in a hurry if the wind increases. The boat rides better, makes a better average speed and the batteries are always full. The beneft of using a much smaller sailplan can only be appreciated by someone who's been caught offguard in a squall with too much sail up. "Adventures" like that might be fun for weekend sailors and short coastal passagemakers, but on a long ocean passage they're something to avoid, even if it means a slower passage.
Motor/Sailer Design Expedition Yacht

3) Etc

New Publication

For those interested, a freshly new magazine on these matters is on the market:

"Electric & Hybrid Marine Technology International"

UKIP Media & Events

Steam would be great for the many big toys cruiser.

The boiler could provide power for heat, air cond , AC power , hot water, refrigeration , the bilge pumps and the deck gear.

As many big boats require a noisemaker to be operational 24/7/365 the silence of a boiler would be a great improvement in terms of noise and power plant life.

FF said:

Steam would be great for the many big toys cruiser.

The boiler could provide power for heat, air cond , AC power , hot water, refrigeration , the bilge pumps and the deck gear.

As many big boats require a noisemaker to be operational 24/7/365 the silence of a boiler would be a great improvement in terms of noise and power plant life.

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Written by someone who has never been on a steam powered vessel.

It is complex, requires near constant attention, and is noisy enough to make you drool over a diesel powered generator in a sound shield.

>Written by someone who has never been on a steam powered vessel.<

Not so, I have a friend that works on the Staten Island Ferry , and I visited before the last steam boat went out of service.

It NEVER went all dead , as the newer electric boat has done.

<requires near constant attention,> No FADEC for steam yet?

Since a steam boat could burn most anything , the concept of operating on waste oil , mineral or food comes to mind .

FF said:

<requires near constant attention,> No FADEC for steam yet?

Since a steam boat could burn most anything , the concept of operating on waste oil , mineral or food comes to mind .

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Not quite FADEC but close. There is bridge control of speed and direction but a large plant still requires a degree of attendance.

Boilers (especially high pressure boilers) are very fussy about combustion quality and deposits on (and in) tubes.

I am sure that if someone wanted to spend the money, it would be possible to build and operate an automated plant for a small boat that would work very well mechanically ... economically is another matter altogether and maintenance might be interesting unless the original designer and builder was/were always available.

My Dream Hybrid Trawler Build

I have been looking to convert a 40 ft Trawler with a serial hybrid power plant.

My goal is to have a 9 knot vessel that can day trip electrically and cruise economically. I would like to have light solar and wind to allow the vessel to anchor for extended periods of time without using much diesel fuel. I would want to dock and connect shore power as little as possible on this cruise.

Ideally This vessel will also have propane for dual powered refrigeration, on demand hot water heater, cooking/grilling and clothes dryer. Air con would be dual power AC/propane, as well with a low wattage dehumidifier. The other high amperage appliances would be a laundry washing machine and possibly a small microwave.

Ideally the solar and wind would cover a large portion, if not all, of the hotel load while at anchor and electrical appliance use would be kept to a minimum. If shore power is available all appliances could be operated as needed. 3 or 4 propane cylinders in the 30lb range would be plenty for an extended cruise and should be easily refilled periodically in most places.

Electrical items that would need diesel generator assistance would be an RO water maker with UV filter and aircon. Any hydraulics would be PTO off of the diesel. An anchor windlass, SCUBA compressor, davit or even an emergency bilge pump could be run hydraulically and a hydraulic starter and accumulator could be used to start the genset. Systems like this are used on lifeboat engines on merchant ships and the PTO Pump charges the accumulator after each start.

This dream build would be my ultimate cruising vessel to explore the Caribbean and an economical liveaboard. Although the conversion and outfitting cost is high the operating cost would be reasonable, I think. It has been proven that the savings while running at cruising speeds is minimal with hybrid power plants, but day tripping, shifting berths or anchorages and short runs would be more economical with the hybrid power plant than a pure diesel power plant.

Things like the hydraulic components are expensive and might be impractical and the wind and solar don't have to be part of the initial conversion. The dehumidifiers effect on air conditioning from a power standpoint needs to be looked at in more detail, but I believe it will be significant. Relying more heavily on propane might also be a mistake, but all the propane systems would have electrical backups and not being able to refill propane won't be catastrophic.

I would love to hear the forums opinions and also get any practical knowledge that cruisers have in regards to economical extended cruising.

DiamonDiver said:

I have been looking to convert a 40 ft Trawler with a serial hybrid power plant.

My goal is to have a 9 knot vessel that can day trip electrically and cruise economically. I would like to have light solar and wind to allow the vessel to anchor for extended periods of time without using much diesel fuel. I would want to dock and connect shore power as little as possible on this cruise.

Ideally This vessel will also have propane for dual powered refrigeration, on demand hot water heater, cooking/grilling and clothes dryer. Air con would be dual power AC/propane, as well with a low wattage dehumidifier. The other high amperage appliances would be a laundry washing machine and possibly a small microwave.

Ideally the solar and wind would cover a large portion, if not all, of the hotel load while at anchor and electrical appliance use would be kept to a minimum. If shore power is available all appliances could be operated as needed. 3 or 4 propane cylinders in the 30lb range would be plenty for an extended cruise and should be easily refilled periodically in most places.

Electrical items that would need diesel generator assistance would be an RO water maker with UV filter and aircon. Any hydraulics would be PTO off of the diesel. An anchor windlass, SCUBA compressor, davit or even an emergency bilge pump could be run hydraulically and a hydraulic starter and accumulator could be used to start the genset. Systems like this are used on lifeboat engines on merchant ships and the PTO Pump charges the accumulator after each start.

This dream build would be my ultimate cruising vessel to explore the Caribbean and an economical liveaboard. Although the conversion and outfitting cost is high the operating cost would be reasonable, I think. It has been proven that the savings while running at cruising speeds is minimal with hybrid power plants, but day tripping, shifting berths or anchorages and short runs would be more economical with the hybrid power plant than a pure diesel power plant.

Things like the hydraulic components are expensive and might be impractical and the wind and solar don't have to be part of the initial conversion. The dehumidifiers effect on air conditioning from a power standpoint needs to be looked at in more detail, but I believe it will be significant. Relying more heavily on propane might also be a mistake, but all the propane systems would have electrical backups and not being able to refill propane won't be catastrophic.

I would love to hear the forums opinions and also get any practical knowledge that cruisers have in regards to economical extended cruising.

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wow.. you don't want much do you!
You would have better luck powering the boat off unobtanium..
I don't believe, in the current marine environment it is anywhere near possible to do all this.. at pretty well any cost..
HOLLYWOOD

There is an annual car race 3027km Darwin to Adelaide. The competing cars,usually entered by Universities and researchers with cutting edge technology, look very uncomfortable but reach speeds up to 120kmh. You could try researching that and apply it to your boat.
Each year Greenline exhibit at the Sydney BoatShow. My impression is each time the boat seems more conventionally and less solar powered. If that be so (I`m unsure), it may say something about your goal prospects. Good luck, solar is a joy on a boat.

I agree with Hollywood on this one. I have written several times here about my experience in researching diesel electric systems. I won't repeat everything here, you can probably find them in the archives. But, first of all, assuming you are talking about a FD hull, at 40' it will never cruise at anywhere near 9 knots. 6.5-7 at the max. Hull speed on a 40' is about 8.4. Several key points (1) a diesel electric system is only marginally more fuel efficient than a traditional diesel drive, less than 5% fuel savings. The same size propulsion engine is needed whether straight or electric drive. With the hydraulics you are talking abut hanging off it, a good bit larger diesel will be needed. (2) to get more than 30 to 90 minutes running off the batteries, you will need more battery than that 40 footer can possibly carry. Solar will be not be able to recharge the battery bank in anything resembling a decent time period unless you find a way to paint the boat in solar cells. While it all sounds good in theory, it is not workable with today's technology and there is no operational cost savings that would ever justify the upfront capital expense.

You might be right. It might be better to scrap the idea of hybrid propulsion and concentrate on extending the boats ability to stay off the grid with battery and wind or solar using as little diesel as possible.

I still like the idea of LP Gas wherever possible with electric backup, say hot water and refrigeration. And I believe that laundry capability is important in a liveaboard vessel.

I thought that with that much battery power a serial hybrid would make sense, maybe a parallel system makes more sense where an electric motor augments a diesel drive system at low hull speeds and maneuvering and the diesel remains mechanically connected to the prop through the transmission. A 100 HP marine electric motor could be inserted in the drive line with a logic controller. Say from 0-4 knots you would operate on electric and 4 plus the diesel would kick in get you to cruising speed.

It is after all a FD trawler hull so the number attached to full speed isn't important. The 9 knots was an arbitrary number to get the conversation started. I am interested in a Practical FD trawler with maybe one fuel tank dedicated to battery. I understand
And that maybe it would be better to maintain 2 fuel tanks and take a portion of the space from each tank for a battery bank. This way the weight wouldn't change much and off grid ability would be traded for running range.

I believe you are right that 300 HP of serial hybrid power isn't practical at this time. That's why it was a dream boat and not a current project.

There is a 40 ft donor hull that is available which is why I chose that configuration. It was built in the 80's and is ready for refit. I have been looking at hybrid options and have come to the same conclusion as you. The actual conversion will be much more conservative than my dream machine.

Thanks and any input will be appreciated and considered..

Cheryl

I've been following these electric and hybrid propulsion threads for awhile now and I've noticed a couple of things. There are quite a few people that don't understand the difference between diesel electric and hybrid.

Diesel electric power plants don't necessarily need batteries and are usually installed to take advantage of limited space or provide additional maneuverability with a z-pod or multiple thrusters. Smaller diesel generators run in parallel also allow the engines to run in a more efficient portion of their powerband.

Hybrid power plants usually run off of a battery bank and usually have either a generator to keep the batteries topped off and extend operating range (serial hybrid) or have an engine connected mechanically to the power train alongside the electric propulsion ( parallel hybrid).

A large cruise ship would be diesel electric, a WWII sub would be hybrid. I was an engineer aboard a gas-turbine electric tanker a few years ago on a ship that was built in the late 60's. It was about 16k HP and ran about 12 knots loaded.

It was an extremely well built vessel and the turbines ran for years with a minimum amount of maintenance compared to diesel or steam plants. In the future maybe parallel hybrid with micro turbine generators will be the answer for electric FD trawlers or even efficient multihull boats.

More food for thought.