Toilets, Electric or manual ?

TMC (cheap copy of Jabsco) with standard (large) porcelain bowl has been in use for nearly 12 years.

I have replaced the flapper valve twice but that's all. I removed the water impeller when we installed it and connected it to the raw water wash-down pump via a pressure controlled solenoid valve. It's very quiet and reliable. We have a spare pump on board but have never needed it.

It's plumbed to an ancient Lectrasan EC which runs on the start batteries, although the toilet itself runs on the house.

It's all 24V which helps with "grunt" but replacement 24V electrodes for the Lectrasan cost almost the same as a complete 12V Lectrascan unit!

I always fill the system with fresh water when leaving the boat. This reduces the sulfur smell when next using the head.

Thanks Parks, good information,I`ve heard positive info about the Raritan here too, but the conversion kit was quoted around $550, and I can buy a whole new Jabsco for $426 locally.(The Jabsco conversion kit is $669 here!). Don`t forget the AUD tanked to 71c US, and then the Bank takes 5% conversion...Canada is looking good for next years overseas trip.
We use seawater. The only time ours smelt was when I pumped a cleaning solution into it before leaving the boat. Then it stank, stopped doing it, no smell.

Hawgwash said:

Thanks.
I think I recall Peggy talking about the critters and smells.
Never found that with any of the manual seawater systems I've had and I wonder water temperature makes a difference.

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Hawgwash--- The raw water plumbing for our forward head holds seawater in it if the intake seacock is open. If this sits for a few days the first pumps of the manual head release some very obnoxious smells. Once "new" raw water enters and fills the system the smell is gone.

We keep all the seacocks on our boat closed except the two engine intakes until we need to use them. Because of a plumbing setup that's more detailed than I want to describe here, if the forward head intake seacock is closed we can run freshwater through the intake plumbing and toilet by opening a tap in the forward head sink and operating the toilet. So we can eliminate that "first few pumps" stink by preventing salt water from sitting in the plumbing between uses of the boat because we can replace it with fresh water when the seacock is closed.

The point being that I don't know that temperature plays much of a role although I suppose in hotter climates the critters in the trapped salt water might die sooner, I don't know.

Hawgwash said:

Thanks.
I think I recall Peggy talking about the critters and smells.
Never found that with any of the manual seawater systems I've had and I wonder water temperature makes a difference.

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The issue is the organic material that is in the intake line. Without O2, live organic matter dies, the anaerobic bacteria then feeds on this organic material. One of the byproducts of this is a nasty sulfur smell. This smell is only an issue the first time the head is used after sitting a while. When the head is used daily, this isn't an issue. The longer the intake line, the worse the smell.

I don't think temperature makes a difference, but maybe the amount of organic matter in the water does? I have two heads, one with a long raw water intake and one with a short intake. We have very little of that odor with the short intake line. Your boat may have a short intake line.

I have a smaller boat than most with less tankage and smaller holding tanks. I don't want to use up my fresh water flushing.
Dave

Having a macerator seems to have certain advantages: no "logs" in the blackwater tank, allowing for more effective extraction at the pumpout.

" no "logs" in the blackwater tank,"

There are no logs after going thru most duck bill - joker valves on the toilets discharge.

I have both system at same time on toilets. Both are electric, but I can quickly disconnect the electric system and use then manually, what is very convenient just in case of problem with electric.

FF said:

" no "logs" in the blackwater tank,"

There are no logs after going thru most duck bill - joker valves on the toilets discharge.

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Fred is right. If there are any, your joker/duckbill valve(s) is/are years overdue for replacement. And because solid waste is about 75% water, the pieces dissolve very quickly IN water.

After pricing new heads and replacement pump units, I decided to rebuild one of our 25 year old centrifugal discharge Raritan Crown units for a grand total of $126 (converted to fresh water flush years ago, so no noisy and power hungry intake pump). Ordered parts (seals, macerator, impeller, joker, etc) direct from Raritan...great service, knowledgeable tech reps, very fair prices. Inverted the bowl and soaked it in a shallow vat of white vinegar for two days then did the same for the pump assembly. Flushed out the gunk...cleaned up like new. Works like new. Relatively quiet without the raw water pump, and faster/more powerful pumping action. A real work horse. Good for another 25 years.

What is a manual head?

Manual pump instead of electric pump !

That was a rhetorical question and I was being a wise ass

motion30 said:

... I was being a wise ass

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Considering the subject matter that seems appropriate....

Marty....................

motion30 said:

What is a manual head?

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I shudder to think how RTF could respond to that!

Ted

Ted said:

I shudder to think how RTF could respond to that!

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I'm surprised he hasn't yet.
Maybe he can't get out of bed today, having missed the Queen post yesterday by a whole minute.

A manual toilet requires the user to (manually) pump to bring in flush water and push bowl contents to their destination This Jabsco toilet is a good example Jabsco manual toilet pre Twist 'n' Lock.

The Groco Model K is a much higher quality--and much higher priced--manual toilet that's more common on trawlers Groco Model K instructions In between is the Raritan PH II Raritan PHII and PHEII


An electric motor can be added to the Groco or the Raritan. However, the motor doesn't actually CONVERT the toilet, it replaces the pump HANDLE only. The pump is still a manual toilet pump, requiring the same maintenance...the only difference is, the motor pumps the toilet for you.

Then there is the British "Baby Blake" Baby Blake, which has a price tag at today's rate of exchange with the British pound of about $3500. With even minimal maintenance it will last at least 100 years.

BruceK said:

Thanks Parks, good information,I`ve heard positive info about the Raritan here too, but the conversion kit was quoted around $550, and I can buy a whole new Jabsco for $426 locally.(The Jabsco conversion kit is $669 here!). .

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This retailer Raritan Sea Era Conversion Kit
has it for U$D399 and I suspect Parks can do even better than that.

Marin said:

Hawgwash- I don't know that temperature plays much of a role although I suppose in hotter climates the critters in the trapped salt water might die sooner, I don't know.

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Everything stinks worse in the summer heat than in the cold of winter because it's BACTERIA that generate odor in an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment...and the insides of hoses are definitely anaerobic environments. Critters inside hoses die quickly from injury and/or lack of oxygen regardless of temperature, and it's the decomposing process taking place in anaerobic conditions that generates the odorous gasses because animal and vegetable life are full of bacteria. Bacteria multiply faster in warm conditions than in cold. As air or water temps drop below 70s, bacterial activity becomes increasingly sluggish...below 60F almost dormant...dormant at 40F. Which is WHY everything stinks worse in hot weather or warm waters than in cold.

dhays said:

Maybe being a Luddite comes with being a sailor? I like the manual heads. Well, I like my Raritan manual head (I hate my WC manual head). The Manual head is just about bullet proof and simple to use. One dial, and a pump handle. I just tell new guests how many pumps to use to flush to clear the line to the holding tank.

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Dave, I'm a power boater and no Luddite, but my wife and I BOTH prefer a manual head. We actually removed two electric heads (one failed, both needed all hoses replaced.)

The biggest reason was we just hated having to hold the button down for a long time, wasting water, just to get all the waste to go down and the bowl to finally be clean. Our holding tanks are somewhat small, and we've found that the process of "go/empty/rinse" is fastest and most efficient at getting the bowl clean with minimal water.

That said, I've used conversion units that have a wet/off/dry dial where the pump handle used to be. We could probably live with one of those. But since we were adding new fixtures and hoses anyway, we went with the old standby that we both know how to use.

Guests are told how it works. Overnight guests usually ask for instructions one more time before using it, and they're fine after that. Day visitors often just hold it until they get ashore. OK by me.

HeadMistress said:

As air or water temps drop below 70s, bacterial activity becomes increasingly sluggish...below 60F almost dormant...dormant at 40F. Which is WHY everything stinks worse in hot weather or warm waters than in cold.

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Hah!
Thanks for the temp tutoring Peggy.
Love your input...won't comment on your output.

Greetings,
Manual toilets????

HeadMistress said:

This retailer Raritan Sea Era Conversion Kit
has it for U$D399 and I suspect Parks can do even better than that.

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I hear good things about the Raritan, but when you add say $100 shipping to Australia, plus around 35% on top of item+freight for currency exchange(since ours tanked), it`s near $700AUD all up, making the electric Jabsco available locally at $426 a better easier proposition.

One of the heads that has always intrigued me is the Lavac (sp?) I seem to recall seeing of the TF folks mention it as well. It seems simple, solid, and reliable. The boats that I have had have not been good candidates for it due to the design of the heads, but I like the concept. Expensive though.

Dave

Rufus T, that's disgusting! Well done.

"One of the heads that has always intrigued me is the Lavac (sp?)"

I love the lavac so much I built my own copy.

The head is a full size monel unit from a liberty ship , the waste pump is a 2 inch offset bronze Edson.

I could not duplicate the sealing toilet seat of the lavac , so a varnished ply seal is slipped on the toilet to flush.

Instructions for lubbers lift the seay \t , remove the seal, do your thing replacve the seal and move the pump handle.

Works fine in 30 years no one has peed on the seal.

I have won cases of beer demonstrating what ir will easily pass . like a tie or golf ball.

The Lavac is for for folks that prefer to go boating , rather than be a toilet repair person.

It does require a good discharge pump, and does use as much water as a std head.

Perfect for direct discharge .

Wifey B: As I've never used a manual potty, I can't speak to them, but never had any problems with our electric. For some of you who have had negative electric experiences perhaps it was in the early days of electricity.......ok, that just slipped out, but seriously perhaps not the current generation of electric heads. My understanding is that over the last couple of decades they've really changed beaucoup amounts. As to using more water, I sort of like think that, yes, they do to get it cleaner. I'm not so sure your manual things really use as little as you hope cause bet like those fool annoying as crap (ok, you knew crap had to sneak in) water conserving toilets you end up with extra flushes. But then I admit not ever using manual and I know Headhunter's Hydrovac says "no moving parts, no pumps, motors, no maintenance!" and "Non-electric one touch dry bowl feature". But then it adds "flushes rags, quarters, and panty hose." Ok, sounds a bit like advertising puffery to me at that point. I'm not gonna try it. Besides who wears panty hose anymore anyway.

No one ever mentions Tecma Toilets when we have these discussions. I have two and IMHO you cant beat them. I installed two vacu flush systems in a sailboat. They just have too many moving parts and things to fix when they fail. The price is about the same as a vacu flush setup but you don't need vacuum box with the duck bills and pump. The toilet base has a high speed pump in the toilet base that destroys everything when it send it to the holding tank.

HopCar said:

Rufus T, that's disgusting! Well done.

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I remember a farm family out in NE or IA or one of the plains states some years ago who thought a meteor had come through the roof of their front porch...until it started to melt! The "iceberg" was big enough to make national news.

I learned it's not uncommon for holding tanks on jetliners to develop small leaks. At high altitudes temps are well below freezing so the droplets usually just freeze and fly away, but this time they built up under the tail wing creating an increasingly large "rock" until a combination of weight and vibration knocked it off the plane. Even that isn't totally unheard of...but the chunks are usually small enough to melt on the way down. It was the size and weight of that one that made it "special."

Very interesting story about holding tank on jetliner ! Thank you.

HeadMistress said:

...It was the size and weight of that one that made it "special."

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And the composition that made it memorable!

Marty.....................