Why Do Brokers Bash Bayliner?

smitty477 said:

"Love to see documentation on this (excessive chop, high moisture with blistering, etc)."


Hello Pau Hana - You and I know that there is no documentation that can be produced. But if anyone ever really needs to have information on the larger Bayliner boats I do have some still photos and a video of the layup being done back in 1995 as well as the layup schedule from Bayliner. That is all besides the fact that when I lift my boat out of the water each season the hull is just about perfect even while it is still wet.
There are some major manufacturers that have continued to use a wood and balsa core layup both above and below the waterline well after Bayliner moved away from that practice back in 1991-1992. Some still use much more 'wood' in their layups even today - whether of not that is 'good' or 'terrible' is left up to the reader.

Hope this helps

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And in your answer lies the problem- theory and conjecture vice hard empirical data that leads to a game of "telephone" and the spreading of false or unfounded information.

Add in 3rd party testimonials (as ronlord pointed out) and an underserved reputation is begun. I've owned 4 bayliners- a 1986 Capri 16', a 2002 Trophy 2359, a 1984 9870, and a 1996 4087. None had any of the problems that are so often mentioned on the net; I rehabbed the Capri, and found the flooring and stringers to be well encapsulated and dry.

What gets me is when I'm talking to a Sea Ray client, and I start hearing about those "crappy Bayliner engines"....

Like many others I have ventured out in the ocean in...

1952 Bayliner
2452 Bayliner
2859 bayliner
3488 Bayliner (crossed the Gulf of Alaska in this one)

When we reached a stage in life to buy our "boat of a lifetime" we could have chosen any brand. We looked at many different boats, but we bought a Bayliner 4788 because we liked the boat, and we trusted the name to deliver a seaworthy, reliable platform to live out our cruising dreams on.

It's simple,
Sales people promote whatever makes the most money. Bayliners are cheap to buy so the comission is minimal. Same w boat size. If there's two people in the office one looking at a 55' Hatt or OA and another looking at a 32' Bayliner Explorer ...... who's going to get the brokers time?

An article in Pacific Yachting a few years ago detailed what was then becoming a common modification to Bayliners that originally came with round chines. The mod was to put a hard chine on them using a foam section glassed on. This would allow the small Hino engines to get those sizes of BL onto a plane.

Another story of wide circulation about early BLs was that the designs that came out in the early 70s following the first Fuel crisis were deliberately underpowered so as to limit the fuel consumption. This also limited their ability to get up and go and led to a lot of boats pushing a larger wave than they should, as they just couldn't go any faster.

I recall reading some of those chine mod articles Koliver mentions. The modification was very well thought of and from testimonials is quite effective at reducing the boat's "squat" at speed. I do recall that it is not an inexpensive modification.

koliver said:

An article in Pacific Yachting a few years ago detailed what was then becoming a common modification to Bayliners that originally came with round chines. The mod was to put a hard chine on them using a foam section glassed on. This would allow the small Hino engines to get those sizes of BL onto a plane.

Another story of wide circulation about early BLs was that the designs that came out in the early 70s following the first Fuel crisis were deliberately underpowered so as to limit the fuel consumption. This also limited their ability to get up and go and led to a lot of boats pushing a larger wave than they should, as they just couldn't go any faster.

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Here's the background on this...

The Bayliner 4788 from the factory has rounded chines.
The hard chine modification of the 4788 (which never had small hino engines btw, they were over 300 HP ) was intended to provide more initial stability, reducing the boats natural tendency to roll.

That modification while being popular is also a large source of debate within the 4788 owners community. Some like the higher initial stability, some think that it takes away from the absolute stability, and possibly makes the roll more snappy or quicker. Part of the reason the modification is so popular is because it was heavily promoted by Both John Riply at Banana Belt Boats and North Harbor diesel which sold a competing modification.

There was an additional modification that was popular and this was to replace the swim platform with basically a hull extension. I do not know as much about this performance wise but I suppose that is where the "reduces squat" that Marin posted about came from. I was quoted about $30K for the two modifications at the time of my refit, and declined. Actually I waffled because I wanted fins but the ship yard heavily promoted their modification, so i did the natural thing and chose neither.

As far as the very early Bayliners I would agree with you, they had smaller engines, just like many of the other boats of the day. That was the "trawler time" in America, as evidenced by the many "trawlers" that were popular then.

Just like most other brands, Bayliner increased it's engine size as the buying public switched from fuel economy to performance in it's boat preference.

Please PM me

ronlord said:

Always "a friend of mine", any first hand accounts here? I have to disagree with the above, I had a 1984 16' Bay that I fished for 11 years on Lake Ontario. This boat was out in weather many times that no 16' should have been in. I did have problems with seats breaking lose, cabin bulkhead coming lose, but never any issue with the hull being compromised. Moved from that boat to a 24' Bay, made many crossings on Lake Ontario in the worst of weather with no hull issues.

Agree that the smaller Bayliner boat quality did improve in the mid 90's, but the price also increased significantly.

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Hi ronlord:

I called my friend who witnessed the Bayliner breaking up, to ask his permission to send you his email address, and he cheerfully agreed to do so.

I then attempted to send you a PM with the email address. However, the forum would not allow me to send it to you because:
Due to abuse by spammers, new members are not allowed to send links in their private messages until they have become trusted members.

This is a completely understandable policy, and since this was my first post, even more understandable.

If you would like to hear the first hand account from a really cool old salty dog, please PM me and hopefully I can reply to your PM with the information. For obvious reasons, I will not publish his email on the open forum pages.

Respectfully Yours,
Mrs. Pea Trombley
St. Petersburg, FL
1977 Stamus for now

"An article in Pacific Yachting a few years ago detailed what was then becoming a common modification to Bayliners that originally came with round chines. The mod was to put a hard chine on them using a foam section glassed on. This would allow the small Hino engines to get those sizes of BL onto a plane."


FWIW - my round chined 1986 38 Bayliner with 175 diesels was able to plane easily and always able to hit 19 knots at WOT with a comfortable cruise at 16 knots.
My 1986 4588 Bayliner with round chines had 220 diesels and would hit the same 19 knots at WOT and cruised at 15-16 knots comfortably.
Both of those boats also had prop pockets as do many other brand boats.
I am not a fan of adding lift at the stern of a boat that cannot be undone due to the affects that it has in following and quartering sea states.
But I can understand that a company that makes these improvements goes out and makes sure people are well aware of them.


Hope this helps

I also saw a Bayliner right after it 'broke apart' as I was not too far away and the owner of that boat eventually bought my 38 Bayliner to replace it.
At low tide he cut an underwater breakwater short at Sag harbor and ran up on boulders approx. 10-15' diameter at between 15 and 16 knots. His forward progress left him pretty high but maybe 30' down along the rocks and needed to be 'pulled off' after floats were attached.
Somewhere I have a few pics of that one as well as another larger Bayliner that spend the night on rocks in the Caribbean.
Nothing all that surprising to see actually given the extent of the impacts.

I think the BL chine mod had little to do w the chine and mostly to do w increased flotation aft and making the bottom larger aft with increased flat surface.

koliver said:

Another story of wide circulation about early BLs was that the designs that came out in the early 70s following the first Fuel crisis were deliberately underpowered so as to limit the fuel consumption. This also limited their ability to get up and go and led to a lot of boats pushing a larger wave than they should, as they just couldn't go any faster.

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Here is a BL 4588 that was repowered. They chose an engine with just about 1/2 the horsepower as the original Hino engines. I believe the 1990 4588 had the 210 hp engines in stalled and the 250hp engines came later, but I am not sure.

Interesting choice. They have essentially turned a planing hull into a SD boat by picking smaller, more efficient, and likely less expensive engines for the repower.

1990 Bayliner 4588 Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

ksanders said:

Like many others I have ventured out in the ocean in...our "boat of a lifetime"...a Bayliner 4788.

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Kevin;
I just had a look at your website; nice job; nice boat.
Maybe you have covered this somewhere else, if so, sorry.
You replaced the original Cummins after 10 years because they were near the end of their life. Which Cummins were they and what hours did they have?

Looking at the listing put up by dhays; 1990 Bayliner 4588 Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
would you expect to see such an extensive refit, including a total rewire, at 25 years?

Hawgwash said:

Kevin;
I just had a look at your website; nice job; nice boat.
Maybe you have covered this somewhere else, if so, sorry.
You replaced the original Cummins after 10 years because they were near the end of their life. Which Cummins were they and what hours did they have?

Looking at the listing put up by dhays; 1990 Bayliner 4588 Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
would you expect to see such an extensive refit, including a total rewire, at 25 years?

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I believe that boat sunk at the dock during a bad snowstorm. The owner detailed his refurb including the smaller engine selection on the Bayliner forum. There was a lot of feedback on this, many people saying that it would be hard to resell with the smaller engines.

Hawgwash said:

Kevin;
I just had a look at your website; nice job; nice boat.
Maybe you have covered this somewhere else, if so, sorry.
You replaced the original Cummins after 10 years because they were near the end of their life. Which Cummins were they and what hours did they have?

Looking at the listing put up by dhays; 1990 Bayliner 4588 Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
would you expect to see such an extensive refit, including a total rewire, at 25 years?

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My cummins has 900 hours. One engine had high blow by. There was also evidence of overheating, and of a belt failure. The boat was also over propped when I bought it from the bank.

I bought it with an assumption that both engines were needing replaced. So I did not even check the other engine. The price I paid reflected that assumption as well.

At closing I had the boat refit and re powered before I ever used it. The refit did not include rewiring. It included re power new generator, heat, electronics, and new pretty much everything else. Really a lot of deferred maintenance.

ronlord said:

I believe that boat sunk at the dock during a bad snowstorm.

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Thanks.
That's exactly why I asked; I just didn't want to make an assumption.

ksanders said:

My cummins has 900 hours.

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Has, as in current boat or had, as in previous?

Thanks.
The reason for change makes sense to me.

Going to toss my 2 cents into this conversation. My previous boat before our Mainship was a Bayliner, a 2000 23' ciera classic, so I think that falls in the smaller boat category. Bought it used in 2004 and had it for almost 11 years. She never saw the end of a tow rope, a fiberglass guy, boat mechanic, or dry land unless is was to put her on the trailer so I could tuck her in for the winter. I never missed out on any part of 11 boating season and my season went from about mid April till the beginning of November. Some people I know and a lot of people on the docks loved to bash Bayliners. The stories were all the same, my friend's sister's cousin's uncle's mailman said "insert vague story here". The running joke amongst Bayliner owners is that these bashers are mostly Searay owners, they are disgruntled because they realized the boats they are still paying off were way over priced . Bayliners were/are built and priced for the "average joe" and a lot of people that get into boating don't realize or know how to properly maintain a boat. That being said, I think we can all agree that a boat that is not properly maintained is going to give its owner problems. This is where I think a lot of the misconception starts. I am pretty sure almost every brand, including Bayliner has had its issues but not enough to warrant most of the "he said she said" nonsense I have heard over the years.

"Looking at the listing put up by dhays; 1990 Bayliner 4588 Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
would you expect to see such an extensive refit, including a total rewire, at 25 years?"


Short story is this - the boat was sunk for a few days / the new owner used a "V" hull outboard powered skiff lashed to a "V" cut in the swim step to bring it home something like 100 miles / goal by new owner was to pull out everything and most weight he could and fit small engines / tanks, genset, built-ins, appliances etc all went out / wiring and most everything else was not of much use / his goal was toi reduce weight and see at least 15+ knots with the 110 Yanmars and have the project completed in 6 months / he was not worried about having such an unusual one off since he was keeping it long term/ 2.5 to 3 years later he was sea trailing here with a light load and reached about 11 knots or so / back of boat was sitting very high and drainage and such was an issue. I thought he was keeping the boat but in any case it was a lot of work for such a project for sure.


That was near the last of the posts I had seen about a year or so ago.

Hawgwash said:

Has, as in current boat or had, as in previous? A

Thanks.
The reason for change makes sense to me.

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Had when i bought the boat

ksanders said:

Had when i bought the boat

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900 hours in 10 years; sat a lot.

manyboats said:

I think the BL chine mod had little to do w the chine and mostly to do w increased flotation aft and making the bottom larger aft with increased flat surface.

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As I recall from the magazine articles about it, the add-on chine is not very large in terms of width. All it does is square off the round corner of the original chine. I don't recall it sticking out any beyond the side of the hull. So while it adds some underbody area, it did not appear to be a lot. Just enough to pick up the stern a little at speed.

Look to say BL are bad is just not justified, having said that I don't think anyone can deny they have a soso reputation.

That rep will not change.

I was boating as kid on LI years ago and the rep was there then.

It just means an informed buyer can get a good boat at good price, but at the same time be aware if you thereafter try to sell it that rep and "pushback" by buyer will exist.