Why Do Brokers Bash Bayliner?

I don't see a lot of difference between Bayliner and any of the other production boats other than they used excessive amounts of chop in the hull laminate schedule and it took them longer than anyone else in the business to get away from wood cored stringers. High moisture with blistering on the bottom and soft engine stringers would be the two things to look out for.

I have been involved with two Bayliners this year with Hino diesels. One fella spent six months trying to get parts for a rebuild ..... gave up on that and spent the next six months to find a used (non-rebuilt) engine. The other fella is still scouring the internet for parts.

"I have been involved with two Bayliners this year with Hino diesels. One fella spent six months trying to get parts for a rebuild ..... gave up on that and spent the next six months to find a used (non-rebuilt) engine. The other fella is still scouring the internet for parts."


Perhaps send them to the BOC or send me a message and I am sure we can help him out.


Hope this helps

smitty477 said:

"I have been involved with two Bayliners this year with Hino diesels. One fella spent six months trying to get parts for a rebuild ..... gave up on that and spent the next six months to find a used (non-rebuilt) engine. The other fella is still scouring the internet for parts."


Perhaps send them to the BOC or send me a message and I am sure we can help him out.


Hope this helps

Click to expand...

Thanks Ron, I've not hears any real issues sourcing parts for the Hinos, over at the BOC.

Parts for hinos are readily available if you know where to look. On my EH700 I've used North Harbor Diesel for anything I couldn't source locally.


Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum

Kevin and Ron -

I agree - but I do not know what Hino engines he is referring to or what parts they are seeking. NHD is a good source as well as Earl Summerville , Dredge harbor, Mike Able and a few others that I have used when needed. I have been in touch with one Bayliner Hino owner the past few months rebuilding two engines after a complete sinking over in Subic Bay - he is having more problems with talented labor then sourcing parts. Similarly I have posted back and forth with a couple of owners in Australia and other more remote locations that have had more difficulties with skilled talent then the parts themselves. I look out the window or where I am working today and see 3 Hino powered flatbeds at 'Charlies Towing' across the street. We get a food delivery each week from DiCarlo foods in a Hino powered truck and also an occasional meat delivery in a Hino powered truck. Where I am here in NY they are quite common but mostly known for the fact that they do not usually need service and do not usually need parts - given any reasonable PN that is.
I am sure one of us could send the owners to a source if we knew the engines and parts that the seek.


Hope this helps

Here is an illustration of the difference in liferails between a 49' Meridian (Bayliner) and 50' Ocean Alexander in my club. Bayliner is 1", 28" high, small stabilization arm, no rub rail. OA is 1.25", 31" with substantial bulwark, substantial bracing, rub rail.

refugio said:

Here is an illustration of the difference in liferails between a 49' Meridian (Bayliner) and 50' Ocean Alexander in my club. Bayliner is 1", 28" high, small stabilization arm, no rub rail. OA is 1.25", 31" with substantial bulwark, substantial bracing, rub rail.

View attachment 44546
View attachment 44547

Click to expand...

Yep, how strong is strong enough?

How thick is thick enough?

I walk around my boat all the time and never feel like the rails are going to bend or break.

And btw very few boats I've seen have that double mounting that the OA in the photo has. That's very nice!

boatpoker said:

I don't see a lot of difference between Bayliner and any of the other production boats other than they used excessive amounts of chop in the hull laminate schedule and it took them longer than anyone else in the business to get away from wood cored stringers. High moisture with blistering on the bottom and soft engine stringers would be the two things to look out for.

Click to expand...

Love to see documentation on this (excessive chop, high moisture with blistering, etc).

I read surveys as part of the job, and have reviewed a large number of surveys of Bayliners. I've seen nothing that stigmatizes Bayliner from the insurance standpoint. If there were major concerns, actuarials would have that risking built into the insurance tables and resultant premiums would reflect the increased risk.

There is no such concern.

I haven't run into any Brokers that had something bad to say about the big Bayliners. The Broker that sold me my Krogen told me that the big Bayliners were the best value around. He did not, by the way, tell me that my Krogen was the best value around, and he was the Broker for the seller, not mine.

Preferring the pilothouse design, if I ever move up in size and particularly if we have a plan to live-aboard, the 45 and 4788 would be on a very short list of candidates for a plethora of reasons.

"Here is an illustration of the difference in liferails between a 49' Meridian (Bayliner) and 50' Ocean Alexander in my club. Bayliner is 1", 28" high, small stabilization arm, no rub rail. OA is 1.25", 31" with substantial bulwark, substantial bracing, rub rail."


I agree 100% - there are more than a few Ocean Alexanders about 9 miles north of us in Norwalk Ct and we have spoken top a few owners over the years as we all head back and forth across the sound and run into each other at our ports. Most all the OA's we have seen are very heavily built and have a very robust hull. And as part of that deal they carry much more weight and have a much deeper draft , many have a much taller clearance - I really like the boats and they have different advantages and disadvantages dependent upon desired use from whet we have learned.
I really like the boats build and layout in any case.

ksanders said:

I walk around my boat all the time and never feel like the rails are going to bend or break.

Click to expand...

Well...that's not really when a liferail is tested. It's when the vessel is moving in a seaway and someone is thrown against it. Tearing out is one scenario, flipping over the top is another.

That 31" on the OA 50 isn't really that high - there's an OA 52 in the next slip that has 33" rails. And the USCG minimum for an inspected vessel is 36".

I generally like my guests, but I really love my wife and grandson. My rails are (now) 1.25" and as high as I could make them. You may feel differently about your passengers - that's your prerogative as master of your vessel.

Edit: I showed this post to my wife and she said "so you made another enemy". That wasn't my intention - I just get a little snarky sometimes.

"Love to see documentation on this (excessive chop, high moisture with blistering, etc)."


Hello Pau Hana - You and I know that there is no documentation that can be produced. But if anyone ever really needs to have information on the larger Bayliner boats I do have some still photos and a video of the layup being done back in 1995 as well as the layup schedule from Bayliner. That is all besides the fact that when I lift my boat out of the water each season the hull is just about perfect even while it is still wet.
There are some major manufacturers that have continued to use a wood and balsa core layup both above and below the waterline well after Bayliner moved away from that practice back in 1991-1992. Some still use much more 'wood' in their layups even today - whether of not that is 'good' or 'terrible' is left up to the reader.

Hope this helps

refugio said:

Well...that's not really when a liferail is tested. It's when the vessel is moving in a seaway and someone is thrown against it. Tearing out is one scenario, flipping over the top is another.

That 31" on the OA 50 isn't really that high - there's an OA 52 in the next slip that has 33" rails. And the USCG minimum for an inspected vessel is 36".

I generally like my guests, but I really love my wife and grandson. My rails are (now) 1.25" and as high as I could make them. You may feel differently about your passengers - that's your prerogative as master of your vessel.

Edit: I showed this post to my wife and she said "so you made another enemy". That wasn't my intention - I just get a little snarky sometimes.

Click to expand...

Don't worry you are not making an enemy of me. I'm actually enjoying our little exchange.

I agree, the rail could be higher.

My method of avoiding risk is not to go out on the front deck during rough weather. During nice weather we sit on the couch and relax sometimes.

So to continue here... I think and I could be wrong but I heard somewhere that the Bayliner 47 was among the most popular in terms of lumbers large motor yacht ever made with something like a thousand units sold. Again I could be wrong about that but that's another issue.

Based on the large number made, how many deaths or even injuries have been recorded over the last two or arguably three decades of service because of people fell overboard over the "unsafe" rails.

I'm in love with strong, high, 1.25" handrails. Their a must.

I was in the yard today to re-launch our boat and take it to its slip before heading to work in Seattle and heard an exchange in the office that might be of interest regarding Bayliners.

Two customers were discussing the upcoming hauling of a Bayliner with the yard's scheduler. I don't know which model but it was apparently a large one as they were talking about using the 150 ton Travelift because of the number of straps that machine has.

One of the customers had a logo on his shirt that I couldn't read. I don't believe either one of them was the owner of the boat. They both talked like people who were making arrangements to have something done to the boat.

The discussion was about how many lifting straps to use and where to put them. The concern was to lift the boat without putting a strap under the forward part of the hull.

The fellow with the logo on his shirt made a comment about how you never want to put a sling under the forward part of a Bayliner. The other fellow agreed and held up his hands in a representation of the curved forward part of a hull and then flexed them in and out.

Logo guy laughed and nodded, and the yard scheduler seemed to understand what they were talking about because he then said no worries, they would use x-number of straps and put them here, here, and here.

That's all I know. But I have never heard anyone refer to a Bayliner's hull being overly flexible before, not that I have heard much about the structure of a Bayliner hull one way or the other. But it was a rather surprising thing to hear being discussed.

Rails 36 1/2 inches high, tops are 2 7/8 inches by 1 3/8 inches,
stanchions are 1 3/8 inch.
Nice and solid.

Ted

Marin said:

I was in the yard today to re-launch our boat and take it to its slip before heading to work in Seattle and heard an exchange in the office that might be of interest regarding Bayliners.

Two customers were discussing the upcoming hauling of a Bayliner with the yard's scheduler. I don't know which model but it was apparently a large one as they were talking about using the 150 ton Travelift because of the number of straps that machine has.

One of the customers had a logo on his shirt that I couldn't read. I don't believe either one of them was the owner of the boat. They both talked like people who were making arrangements to have something done to the boat.

The discussion was about how many lifting straps to use and where to put them. The concern was to lift the boat without putting a strap under the forward part of the hull.

The fellow with the logo on his shirt made a comment about how you never want to put a sling under the forward part of a Bayliner. The other fellow agreed and held up his hands in a representation of the curved forward part of a hull and then flexed them in and out.

Logo guy laughed and nodded, and the yard scheduler seemed to understand what they were talking about because he then said no worries, they would use x-number of straps and put them here, here, and here.

That's all I know. But I have never heard anyone refer to a Bayliner's hull being overly flexible before, not that I have heard much about the structure of a Bayliner hull one way or the other. But it was a rather surprising thing to hear being discussed.

Click to expand...

My boat has two factory marked strap locations, one forward, one aft.

There are only two larger sizes ever made, the 5288 and the 5788

For whatever reason these two guys wanted at least three straps on the boat they were scheduling to be hauled out. They seemed to be making a big deal out of providing enough support for the hull.

Lots of irrelevant detail in your story, Marin.

jacks88 said:

Why do all the brokers I talk to advise me to avoid Bayliner and Meridian boats?

Click to expand...

My first thought: they haven't any to sell. Is that a recommendation!

The fact is that the large Bayliners sell themselves.

for a quarter of a million or less you get...

• Modern construction, including decks, engines, the whole works.
• Three staterooms
• Two full baths, including a bath tub.
• A huge salon
• A huge pilothouse
• A large covered cockpit
• A boat deck big enough for a 13' RIB and factory stock with a 750 lb crane. plus seating for 10 if you want with running water and fridge.
• 600nm of range
• Speed to actually get somewhere and back in a weekend
• Seakeeping ability for any coastal cruising you want
• The list of factory standard stuff goes on and on. From the trash smasher, to the built in washer dryer, to the full sized refrigerator.

Nope, say what you want about the large Bayliners, but try to find a more capable boat in the quarter million and less category, that isn't 40years old and will for sure pass a survey.

Lifting larger boats in a travel lift is a great deal more complex than it might appear. While more straps may be required for the tenderness of an old wood hull, it can also be required for the load on the strap. Placement is critical to balance the load on the lift, support the hull properly under a heavy section (engine and fuel tanks), and making sure that undo stress isn't exerted on the hull by having the foward and rear straps too far apart. What may appear as the bow flexing up from a strap to far forward, may in reality be too great a distance between forward and rear straps with too much weight in the middle.

But hey, if it's not your boat or boat yard it's easy to be an expert......no skin in the game.

Ted

No expert, and no skin in the game, but a quick Google search indicates that flexing is a concern with 4588s and that more than two straps may be used and spreader bars should be used.

Seems like a fairly reliable source:

http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/forum/motoryachts/38154-problems-lifting-4588

Pilothouseking has even witnessed them oil-canning.

ksanders said:

I agree, the rail could be higher.



My method of avoiding risk is not to go out on the front deck during rough weather.

Click to expand...

Sometimes you don't have that option. Like when your anchor hold-down fails. Or you inadvertently deploy the anchor. Or you're coming alongside another vessel. Or maybe picking up a mooring. Or...

Nobody would want to go outside in poor conditions but sometimes it's necessary. Just like I'm sure you must carry an EPIRB and immersion suits - you hope never to need them.

markpierce said:

Lots of irrelevant detail in your story, Marin.

Click to expand...

I'm assuming logo guy was from a brokerage or a shop of some sort or the local dealer that handles Sea Ray and Meridian and used Bayliners. The point is they both seemed to be very familiar with the brand and the boats.

I'm not going to just say I heard two guys talking about Bayliners. There were some reasons why their comments might-- might-- have some credibility, although I would be very surprised to learn Bayliner hulls are as bendy as they seemed to be implying.

Chiming in again. Love this thread. You can bash any boat ever made, because someone, somewhere found a way to break one. Rather than talk about conversations overheard, or a guy who knew a guy who had a bad Bayliner, let's look at facts.

1. No insurance carrier charges more to insure a Bayliner than any other boat. If Bayliners were more likely to break, sink, or cause harm, there would be a pricing differential.
2. Blistering. Bayliner yachts have no more blistering issues than other production yacht. Less than some if we include Uniflite.
3. Boat design is an exercise in trade offs. The salon in my 4788 is far bigger and well- lit than a 45-50 foot Ocean Alexander. I happily trade less room to walk around the outside of the boat, which I rarely need to do, for a nice, big salon for entertaining, which I do a lot.
4. Brand name components. I have Cummins engines, Hurth transmissions, Faria gauges, Perko fittings, etc. Bayliner got better price breaks due to volume and passed the savings on. That means better value.
5. Interior design. I don't think any manufacturer did a better job of designing interiors and storage than Bayliner.
6. Resale value. I have a snarky friend who told me Bayliner built disposable boats. He sinks more money into keeping his Carver afloat than I do, year in and year out. His boat is 16 feet shorter than mine. Here in the PNW I see Sea Rays selling for the same dough as a similar year and size Bayliner. This summer I saw more 10-20 year old Bayliners on the water than any other boat. They are holding up pretty darned well.

So, yes, I am a fan of Bayliner yachts. Especially my 4788! ?

I think what gave Bayliner their bad reputation was their smaller boats. A friend of mine watched a 19-21 foot outboard Bayliner break up in storm waves coming home from Anclote Key (west coast of FL) about 15 years ago.

Miz Trom said:

I think what gave Bayliner their bad reputation was their smaller boats. A friend of mine watched a 19-21 foot outboard Bayliner break up in storm waves coming home from Anclote Key (west coast of FL) about 15 years ago.

Click to expand...

Always "a friend of mine", any first hand accounts here? I have to disagree with the above, I had a 1984 16' Bay that I fished for 11 years on Lake Ontario. This boat was out in weather many times that no 16' should have been in. I did have problems with seats breaking lose, cabin bulkhead coming lose, but never any issue with the hull being compromised. Moved from that boat to a 24' Bay, made many crossings on Lake Ontario in the worst of weather with no hull issues.

Agree that the smaller Bayliner boat quality did improve in the mid 90's, but the price also increased significantly.

Northern Spy said:

No expert, and no skin in the game, but a quick Google search indicates that flexing is a concern with 4588s and that more than two straps may be used and spreader bars should be used.

Seems like a fairly reliable source:

Bayliner Owners Club - BOC Forum - Topic: Problems lifting 4588 (1/1)

Pilothouseking has even witnessed them oil-canning.

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that the hull flexes. It's not built to the strength of a passage maker. The point I did a poor job of explaining was that you can make many boats flex by picking them up wrong. Whether it's considered a structural problem, is reflected by insurance rates as already mentioned.

Ted

sunchaser said:

OK, I'll bite. What do they tell you to not avoid?

Click to expand...

The usual standards: Kadey Krogen, Grand Banks, Nordhavn.