What type of Long Range Vessel?
- Thread starter wayne-c
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ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
The two boats you pointed out are wonderful Coastal Cruisers.
If you want to cross oceans you need a boat with much more range and rough water capability.
There are only two real missions for a pleasure yacht. Coastal Cruising and ocean crossing or Passagemaking. From a practical standpoint there is not much need for anything in between. You either for example need the fuel endurance to cross oceans or you do not.
Much of what you mentioned in your post are important features of a boat that you intend to spend allot of time on.
Also keep in mind that many things are added by owners to make their boats more livable.
I will say this though. If you think you might want to cross oceans buy a passagemaker. You can cruise along a coast line in a boat capable of crossing oceans. You cannot cross oceans in a boat designed to cruise along a coast line.
If you want to cross oceans you need a boat with much more range and rough water capability.
There are only two real missions for a pleasure yacht. Coastal Cruising and ocean crossing or Passagemaking. From a practical standpoint there is not much need for anything in between. You either for example need the fuel endurance to cross oceans or you do not.
Much of what you mentioned in your post are important features of a boat that you intend to spend allot of time on.
Also keep in mind that many things are added by owners to make their boats more livable.
I will say this though. If you think you might want to cross oceans buy a passagemaker. You can cruise along a coast line in a boat capable of crossing oceans. You cannot cross oceans in a boat designed to cruise along a coast line.
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ranger58sb
Guru
I think good to list specific features you might like to have. Remember some of those are specific to a given boat, built into the design (note I've re-organized your list), but many of those can be retro-fitted as an aftermarket installation... so while you're shopping, if boats with good bones but without a trash compactor (for example) surface (so to speak)... that might not be a real impediment.
FWIW, I understand folks often don't use watermakers while in port where sea water quality isn't great. Maybe others will comment... If true, you'll appreciate larger water tankage.
And then when it comes to anchor weight... well there are about a gazillion threads on anchors, not just weights but also styles, so just assume that no boat you consider will have the right anchor, the right rode, the right anything to do with anchoring. So you'll have to pick all new, anyway.
-Chris
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ulysses
Guru
Bay Pelican: I believe he was asking about the coast of Mexico and not the U.S. Gulf Coast. He just did the trip all along the U.S. Gulf Coast ICW. Mexican coast (East) is mostly long barrier Islands with few cuts into shallow inner bays similar to Laguna Madras. The further south you go the ports get bigger and seem to service the Bay of Campeche oil industry. Few anchorages unless you have local knowledge of inner bays.
Drake
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That describes a Defever 44 or 49CPMY perfectly, with possible exception of trash compactor and dishwasher. They have more than enough fuel for the range you want and are very comfortable live aboard boats.
Two comments on safety in Mexico and other countries you'd pass by and through. First, the violence is not currently in the coastal areas you'd be visiting. It's always good to get updates from the US Department of State and sites like Noonsite. Border cities, major cities, etc. are the places of unrest. The places you'll be visiting are very conscious of protecting tourists and of safety. Second, it's a matter of your conduct and actions as well. Don't go deep inside the country alone, don't frequent inner city bars and get drunk, but explore safe areas during the day and with groups. We often used agents for customs and other matters and they were excellent in advising us. However, those at the marinas are also aware.
Border towns with Texas are a matter all their own. I'll take one example. Juarez, on the border with El Paso. Go during the day to shop, it's ok. Go early evening with a group, by taxi, to a restaurant, ok. But many cross into Juarez in search of bars, sex, and drugs. They go looking for trouble and find it. They would find it doing the same in any major city in the US.
The others you hear about in Texas are businessmen and kidnapping. It's more often major cities, it's who they are, and it's the wealthy they publicly display.
Use appropriate care in Mexico and most other countries and you'll likely be ok. However, be smart. Be cautious.
We never felt unsafe in our travels through but we also exercised good judgment.
So Kevin, how much was your refit? I seem to recall something in the $150K range (and you don't have stabilization). Am I in the ballpark? And your boat is 5 to 10 feet shorter, 5 to 10 years newer, and roughly half the displacement of the boats the OP has posted as considering.
The OP has a budget of $300K and has been posting links to boats with (asking) prices of $325K to $375K (that one located on the other coast).
So...sure, a motoryacht style boat with a $100K refit says he should be looking at boats under $200K.
sunchaser
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Refugio
It is not uncommon that we suggest someone buy a vessel just like ours. Many reasons for that but we tend to stick with and recommend our own cruising style and what we know, laboriously at times. The OP has a very long wish list that as he looks at numerous vessels will get pared down.
The biggie though is whether the OP truly wants to go offshore for days on end or just harbor hop. That is THE decision IMHO. Until that decision is made debating drapes, dishwashers and compactors is where he is.
It is not uncommon that we suggest someone buy a vessel just like ours. Many reasons for that but we tend to stick with and recommend our own cruising style and what we know, laboriously at times. The OP has a very long wish list that as he looks at numerous vessels will get pared down.
The biggie though is whether the OP truly wants to go offshore for days on end or just harbor hop. That is THE decision IMHO. Until that decision is made debating drapes, dishwashers and compactors is where he is.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Ok come on...
There is a huge difference between doing a total repower and refit of a boat and just fitting a boat out for a new owner.
Almost everybody that buys a boat of any size dumps some money into it just after purchase. Thats because the perfect boat does not exist.
Yes, money can add up quickly, thats why you buy a boat that has most of what you want, and you just add the rest.
Someone on this thread knocked a boat he had chosen because of the anchor. I cannot imagine that someone would even take into account on a $300,000 purchase the anchor a boat has when he buys it. I can go to West Marine and 15 minutes and a thousand dollars or less later have a pretty nice anchor of any size sitting in the back of my trunk. An hour later it can be on my bow.
Someone else knocked his boat choice over the 275 gallons of fresh water it carried. Really??? 275 gallons of water is way more than enough for Coastal Cruising, but it is not relevant in my book anyway. There is no way I'd ever trust the water supply in a foreign country, so a watermaker is a must. I just added one, 40 gallons per hour, $5600 and two days labor. Could have gotten one for a little over $4K that did 20 GPH.
So, yes boat fitting out is a standard practice for a new owner.
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ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
You are exactly right. The OP needs to decide if he wants the capability to cross oceans or not. That single decision will drive his boat choice more than anything else.
And...
I never recommended he buy my style boat, see my first post in this thread. What I did was look at boats he, the OP seemed to like and make a recommendation as to whether they would fulfill his stated mission objective.
Where I get up on step is when someone comes out and says "you need this" when that is just not true. Unless you are going to cross oceans you do not "need" much. Then when the inferred safety card gets thrown out in an attempt to support the "need" I call BS, and will every time.
Maybe we should rename this thread "Looking for a Coastal Cruiser"?
Bay Pelican
Moderator Emeritus
While I fully agree with the issue that the OP must decide how he wants to use the boat, it not just a question of whether he wants to cross oceans or do coastal cruising. In some situations boats which can cross oceans have are beneficial even if you are not crossing oceans.
Trawlers in the Eastern and Southern Caribbean are mostly full displacement long range craft with stabilization because they are more comfortable and provide more options given the normal conditions.
Trawlers in the Eastern and Southern Caribbean are mostly full displacement long range craft with stabilization because they are more comfortable and provide more options given the normal conditions.
Pretty much the same on the Pacific side of central America. And yes, you can fuel and water but not always at modern fuel docks or potable water.
I didn't read this as a humorous statement, so if it was intended as a joke then you got me. If you meant this seriously, I think this is one of the most dangerous scenarios I've seen on this forum.Ok come on...
First of all, the suggested size Rocna for that Mckinna is 55, which is $1,660 at West Marine. But even if it were possible to simply swap out the SS plow on the McKinna and insert the Rocna, that would be hugely misguided.
Everything on that production boat was sized by the builder as a package. From the pulpit, roller, chain stopper, windlass, windlass wiring, chain, chain storage, better end fastening - everything was designed and sized to work together. I'm going to take a stab here and say it was designed with about 5,000 lbs holding power in ideal conditions. And if you fastened an anchor with 10K lbs holding power (again, ideal conditions) on the end, you still have an anchoring system with 5K holding power - but one that will put a larger load on every part of the system when retrieved and stowed than was originally designed.
So...let's add 3 shots of 1/2" G4 chain (WL 9,200 lbs) at a cost (from West Marine) of another $2,943. Now just that chain and anchor weigh approximately 450 lbs more than the existing setup - is that going to change the trim? Naw, it's all good.
Oh crap. The maximum chain size of the Maxwell VWC 2200 is 7/16". So let's bump that up to a new Maxwell VWC 3500 at $4,823 from WM. Will that work with the existing controls? Mounting holes? Let's assume yes. Will the deck withstand a 3500 lb pull up from 2500? Let's just wing it and say sure - I mean, what's the worst that can happen? I mean it's not like your life depends on this, right? Oh wait...
Well, we're all good now, right? New chain, anchor, windlass - I'll even throw in the windlass mounting. But we know there's no way in hell the Rocna is going to fit on that pulpit. Want to ballpark a revised pulpit roller? $2K? Everyone good with that? OK, we're now up to $11,426. Plus tax. Plus you have a (literal) ton of metal in your trunk. Are we done?
Um, no. The old windlass drew 71 amps, the new one draws 100 (assuming 12V - there's no mention of 24V anything in the McKinna listing). I'm too lazy to work out the voltage drop but I'm pretty sure the wiring is going to have to be upgraded. And the breaker.
Am I overthinking this? Maybe. But what's the real-life cost of UNDER-thinking this?
And this is just one anchor, no backup. Let's start talking about having anchors for two different bottom conditions. Or a spare rode. Or...
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
It was no joke.
Are you now indicating tht thre manufacturer of that yacht undersized their complete ground tackle system?
Oh, and you do not need a Rocna anchor to be safe. A bruce will work just fine.
Yes, you are over thinking and over complicating this.
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Wxx3
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I still think Kevin hit the nail on the head here.
Also, I have NOT used the watchmaker since crossing the English Channel. Too much bio stuff in water close to shore.
And heaven only knows how I've managed so long without a trash compactor
ulysses
Guru
Larry M: Good comment on the fuel docks and water. Most cruiser guides will say the Luperon, DR has "fuel available" and to "Contact Pablo on 16/68". It is true fuel is available. Pablo will fill 5 gallon cans and shuttle them from the Gas station via his motor cycle (4 or 5 cans at a time) to his boat and then to yours. Same with water although they usually use different containers.
safe travels
safe travels
mahal
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I can understand adapting a boat that I already own to fit a purpose, but if I we're buying one, why shouldn't I buy a more seaworthy, longer range vessel than my intended purpose? Can one have a too seaworthy of a vessel?
For the OP's budget, I second the N46 recommendation above.
For the OP's budget, I second the N46 recommendation above.
+1, with the additional complications of "unintended consequences" and effect of adaptations on eventual resale value.
Actually they can if it no longer fits their primary purpose. A Nordhavn 60 wouldn't work for the Loop and a Nordhavn 76 wouldn't be good for the ICW.
However, I agree with your argument to a point and that is to have a boat that's more seaworthy and has greater range is always a plus if it doesn't give up any of your primary needs.
If you never use that extra capability some would then argue you wasted money.
As to range, there is also the annoyance factor. We love our sport boat but at cruise of 35 knots we have less than 8 hours range. So, even if full at the start of the day may have to stop along the way, and everywhere we dock will need to fuel. Meanwhile, another boat that will cruise for 70 hours at 20 knots or 300 hours at 12 knots.
Range was always a consideration in our purchasing of a boat to cruise. It eliminated almost all Italian and British boats. A 60' or 64' Princess with flybridge and a range of under 300 nm, about 8-10 hours at cruise. Obviously for those just wanting to move a short distance and anchor.
wayne-c
Member
As I am reading - I understand that I am catching a bit of flack for not knowing what I want to do with the boat, if I want to cross oceans or not. Here is what I can say. I do not have plans to cross oceans per say, however I would love to eventually be capable (whether I do or not, idk) of going around the entire North America continent. From my understanding, many will say this is just coastal hopping - maybe it is. If so, I guess that is what I want to be able to do. Either way I agree that I would like a boat more capable and more safe than I would use. If I invest everything, I wont have the luxury of upgrading or changing 4-5 yrs from now.
As I know - Nordhaven is a fairly popular boat for long range, however to be honest I am not impressed with the living spaces. Yes I know this is a sacrifice for the safety and configuration of crossing oceans. However I will be doing more living then crossing oceans.
So with that being said - what are the important features I should be looking for if I want to have the capability of circumnavigating the Continent - Also, I will show my ignorance here and ask why the long range "ocean crossers" have only a primary single engine vs dual?
As I know - Nordhaven is a fairly popular boat for long range, however to be honest I am not impressed with the living spaces. Yes I know this is a sacrifice for the safety and configuration of crossing oceans. However I will be doing more living then crossing oceans.
So with that being said - what are the important features I should be looking for if I want to have the capability of circumnavigating the Continent - Also, I will show my ignorance here and ask why the long range "ocean crossers" have only a primary single engine vs dual?
"So with that being said - what are the important features I should be looking for if I want to have the capability of circumnavigating the Continent"
After you decide the routes that you want to take with the vessel you will likely be restricted to some set of numbers for clearances (height above water) and draft (deepest depth of boat).
Those two numbers can limit your choices greatly once you have decided where you are likely to cruise. So if you plan to do the loop inland and around the east coast will determine a lot about your choice. If on the other hand your choices do not include these routes you next set of limits may very well likely be with fuel use and range.
It is impossible to solve for your questions without knowing the route(s) that you will be doing and maybe some that you 'might' do.
Hope this helps
After you decide the routes that you want to take with the vessel you will likely be restricted to some set of numbers for clearances (height above water) and draft (deepest depth of boat).
Those two numbers can limit your choices greatly once you have decided where you are likely to cruise. So if you plan to do the loop inland and around the east coast will determine a lot about your choice. If on the other hand your choices do not include these routes you next set of limits may very well likely be with fuel use and range.
It is impossible to solve for your questions without knowing the route(s) that you will be doing and maybe some that you 'might' do.
Hope this helps
Britannia
Wannabe
I was in your position not all that long ago. You can't possibly know everything about what you want to do in the future. Everyone here wants as much possible detail so they can give you their best advice. In general you have heard that the good coastal cruisers will enable you to fulfill your dream of circumnavigating NA - as long as you make good decisions about weather etc. In the end, as has been pointed out many times here, it's about you much more than it is about the boat. Your spirit and determination will be the biggest factor.
There is one exception though. Even though you will be doing more living than crossing oceans, if you pick a coastal cruiser you will never be crossing oceans in that boat. Truth be told, the majority of ocean crossing boats don't do it either. However, you will be making that decision once you buy the boat. You can, of course, have your coastal boat shipped across an ocean one day.
The single engine in an ocean crossing boat is usually for the reduced fuel consumption to give it greater range. It's not about the cost of the fuel but rather carrying enough on board to make the crossing with some reserve.
Richard
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Moonstruck
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Marty, he just came from that direction. I think Bill is talking about the Mexican gulf coast. You probably have some insight for him on that.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
That is the biggest up front decision a prospective "cruising lifestyle" person needs to make.
You can either cross an ocean with your boat or you cannot. Crossing the pacific if memory serves correctly requires approx 2,000 miles of range. Less for the Atlantic if memory is correct.
Anything less than that and you are limited to Coastal Cruising where extra fuel while nice, is not a necessity.
While a Passagemaker has specific criteria required, a Coastal Cruiser allows for more variation in features. To me, the important feature of a "cruising lifestyle" Coastal Cruiser, meaning one where you expect to sleep on for months at a time is comfort. How comfortable is the boat to live on? The cruising part is a very small percentage of time spent on board for many people with a cruising lifestyle, but living on board is 100% of the time.
When I think of a cruising lifestyle I do not think so much of the time spent at sea, I think mostly of the time spent in port, exploring new places.
When I think of passagemaking I think of the classic photo of the Nordhavn 62 in rough weather. While that is appealing in a very masculine sort of way, it is not for everyone.
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Bay Pelican
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My Krogen 42 qualifies as a good long range vessel. However, I have said many times it would make a poor boat for mooring in Chicago and cruising Lake Michigan. The Krogen 42 is not a good marina boat, and is not a good boat for the distances between interesting places on Lake Michigan.
We kept Bay Pelican on Lake Michigan for three years and did not cruise very much.
There you go again - You're pulling our legs, right?
Again, the McKinna in question has 200' of chain, the bow is 7 feet out of the water, so anchoring with a 7:1 scope means you are limited to 28.57'. Minus the 7 feet of bow height gives 20'. With an average tidal range of 10' (in your area) that says you can safely anchor in...10' MLLW of water. Oh wait, unless there's surge.
The only anchoring "specifications" I can gleen from the McKinna site is that the anchor they furnish has to be stainless and shiny. They certainly don't show a boat anchored. Or operating in more than 1' of combined wave height.
Would you really trust a manufacturer - who's most prominent member of their design team does "Exterior Styling and Interior Ergonomic" and engineering consultant is "a leading designer of custom designs with projects having been constrcuted (sic) on four continents." - to furnish a ground tackle system sufficient for cruising the entire West coast of North and Central Americas?
And do you really believe you can increase anchoring capability by simply bolting on "a pretty nice anchor of any size" (your words)?
mahal
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Krogen Whaleback 48
This is a stretch for the OP's budget, but here's one that is a passagemaker without sacrificing living space.
It will still be a downgrade from a luxury house, but I think a $400k vessel might be too much of a step-down.
This is a stretch for the OP's budget, but here's one that is a passagemaker without sacrificing living space.
It will still be a downgrade from a luxury house, but I think a $400k vessel might be too much of a step-down.
wayne-c
Member
That is a helpful perspective - knowing I most likely won't be crossing and requiring 2000 NM at a stretch. I also agree that I will be living more than long range cruising
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