Recommendations for a new windlass

SeaHorse II wrote:I apologize if I'm not understanding the problem but don't most electric windlasses have a mechanical set up where you can crank them by hand? Mine does & is a combination chain & line as well.?????????????

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Good point.* Some do and some don't I guess.* The Lofrans Tigres does have a manual mode that can be used if the electric drive fails. It uses a long handle that comes with the windlass and (I am told) is very slow.* But it would still beat hauling the chain and anchor up by hand unless you were in a big hurry.

The original windlass on our boat did not have a manual mode.

*

Looks like I'm still not communicating here. My system has two winches. The fwd winch is the manual for 3/8th chain only. The rode will come aboard via the electric capstan (drum only) just behind the manual winch and will have only the drum (capstan). When the 20' of chain appears over the bow roller I pull up until there is chain above the gypsy. Tie off in front of the manual Winch and set the chain on the gypsy and take up the slack w the man winch. Use the manual winch to pull up the 20' of chain and claw (probably) anchor. Make the anchor fast, remove the rode from the anchor and finish putting the entire rode all in the box on deck up against the fore cabin just behind the electric capstan. So you see the manual is not a back up winch at all. If I've got 100' of line/rode out I'd need to call Chris (back up winch) to get the rode up. This system would actually be an option on a larger boat unlike most of my anchoring ideas. To me the advantage is a minimal amount of chain and all the rode stores on deck. And yes Marin I do have a traditional chain locker but my last boat w chain locker developed a stink and humidity problem. I have since decided the rode belongs on deck and it should be as light as possible. The above is only an idea and is not found in Chapman's but perhaps it could become the "next generation" anchoring system"*

We have the original mechanical windlass on our Present 42, a Lefrans as I recall. Twenty feet of chain, rest is 5/8 line. Primary anchor is a 36# hinged plow for a lunch hook, easy to store and self launches. 37 Fortess at night.
Maybe we are doing this all wrong- but our system is to put the admiral on the bridge, I deploy and talk her through backing up. All done with the trannies, neutral when I reach 7:1, wrap around the windlass drum then tie off on a Sampson post. Back up directions are given again to determine a proper "set".
OK, we are at anchor. I mentioned this to go over how we retrieve the anchor.
Admiral on bridge again, me with directions to her in forward that runs us directly over the anchor, lots of forward/ port, forward/ both, etc. As I quickly pull the line in by hand. Let me also admit that most anchorages are 15' or less. Neutral as we draw up over the anchor and I quickly wrap around the winch drum and around the Sampson post as we drift forward and break out the anchor.
At this point I usually am able to drop the chain in the chain drum and ratchet the remaining chain in pretty quickly. Actually if I prefer I can pull the remainder in by hand. Obviously I wouldn't be able to do this with a 55-60# anchor. But for us it is a simple way to deploy and retrieve the anchor.

Eric---

Your tandem windlass idea will certainly work although it seems to me that you could accomplish the same thing with one windlass that has a combination wildcat on it that can pull both your line and your chain. Unless you already own the line-gypsy-only windlass and want to use it instead of buying something new.

We don't have an odor issue with the locker on our boat. Granted, we use all-chain rode so once it's washed off there's nothing on it anymore. As opposed to line that gets mud and other bits down in the strands where it can rot and stink.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 7th of January 2011 08:56:47 PM

Hi again Steve,By mechanical do you mean manual? What is and where is the "chain drum"? Well I see bigger boats DO have options for lighter ground tackle. Fifteen feet of water? You must boat in anchoring haven. I like your drill. We do much the same but that act is going to get real slick this summer w our crew communicators. I will be able to constantly (or nearly so) talk to Chris not only about what comes next but why and possible alternatives as well. Boat handling 101.
Marin,
A combination winch/gypsy is unacceptable. I don't like the splice and I don't like punishment I think the line is subjected too. About that "next generation" item I'll wait and see over much time. But your're right. It would be the ideal system for the ideal rode
(combination) that I've ever heard about. Just don't like it. I am open to possibly (remotely) an all chain system w a good high pressure washdown system. Three years ago when we talked about this I didn't like the weight of all chain and I'm 100% of the same opinion now.

nomadwilly wrote:

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Three years ago when we talked about this I didn't like the weight of all chain and I'm 100% of the same opinion now.

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In a boat like yours and in the potentially very deep waters you have to anchor in up there I would think that an all-chain rode-- which I believe would do*a better job of*anchoring your boat-- would be perhaps too much weight in the bow.* I wouldn't want any less than 300 feet*for the Passage and SE Alaska.*

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 7th of January 2011 10:04:29 PM

Marin wrote:I would think that an all-chain rode-- which I believe would do*a better job of*anchoring your boat-- would be perhaps too much weight in the bow.*

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I had 238 ' of 3/8" chain that I pulled out of my boat for the reason given above.
When coming off a wave, my bow didn't recover as fast as I would like it to so I
switched to 20' of chain and 160' of rope. The bow recovers much better now and
I'm not hauling all that weight around.

*

Eric,
It was great talking to you and thanks again for the Willard info. We do have a manual windless. We have a drum on each side of our windlass. If I were a bit saltier I would know the proper names. One is smooth and the other has a groove in the center and is designed for the chain to drop into, I guess sort of like a sprocket. Chain drum!
When I have to haul the anchor up from a deep anchorage it means I begin the pull with the 5/8 line. I wrap it twice around the smooth drum and also pull it as I ratchet it up. I assume this is correct- but have never been on a sail boat. When I reach the chain I actually pull the line off of the smooth drum and manhandle the rode to the other side and engage the chain onto the "chain drum".
Question- I always wondered if the center groove on the "chain drum" was designed to pull the line and then transition to the chain when it reached the drum?

Steve, My chain only gypsy has a smooth groove in the center also. It seems to be there so the chain links can lie flat in the indentations that grip them when raising or lowering.
My previous boat has a combination rope/chain Gypsy it was similar to a standard chain gypsy but the grove was in a V shape and had ridges to grip the rope. The rope was spliced to the chain, the windlass fed and transitioned from rope to chain "automatically" just fine. Some people distrust the slpice, some like only an all chain rode, I guess it depends where one anchors most. In my opinion a combination rope/ chain rode would be fine along the gulf coast where we usually anchor sahllow 8-20' depths I did not have any problem with it but did not really anchor out very much. My Monk had all chain on it when I bought her that works fine for me too.
Steve W

Steve,
No V or grooves so I think you are right. It sounds like our area with it's shallow anchoring and small tidal changes has it's benefits.

All the winches that I've seen have a capstan/drum on one side and a gypsy/sproket on the other. If you align the gypsy to the bow roller the capstan is way off. I would think one would need to install a vertical iddler roller between the bow roller and the winch.
Some time ago I remember seeing a winch that had both the gypsy and the capstan drum on the same side. That would bring the misalignment whithin tollerable levels. I've not been able to find it again.
Walt,
Yes, and you've got a very full bow that should carry the extra chain weight better than others. Maybe that's why the GBs have a reputation as a wet boat. They all have all chain. A compromise would/could be to go a size smaller on the chain and get high strength chain.
Marin,
Yes, the design of the Willard is w a VERY full stern and a rather slender bow. The design does like it's weight aft. The Willy is more so but most trawlers are fuller aft.

Forkliftt wrote:If I were a bit saltier I would know the proper names. One is smooth and the other has a groove in the center and is designed for the chain to drop into

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There are a lot of different names people use.* But the most "proper"ones I've come across are "gypsy drum" for the smooth drum and "wildcat" for the chain drum.

I had a Goode windlass once. It would accept chain and rope on the same "drum" and no tailing was necessary.

Hi Eric,

these show up used occasionally on Ebay. They don't make them with the gypsy and drum on the same side anymore.

Is this what you are thinking about?


Mfg under the name PowerWinch.* They still build capstan only units.* The older one's had the combo gypsy+drum

-- Edited by bshanafelt on Saturday 8th of January 2011 07:13:56 PM

I'm at the boat and just checked. Original issue 1983 Present 42 Sundeck. Lefrans Royal.

Forkliftt wrote:Lefrans Royal.

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Lefrans or Lofrans?

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bshanafelt,
Don't recognize the winch but that's the configuration. That's what I want but I'd want one a bit more "up town". One could align the gypsy and still have an acceptable angle on the capstan. But I know not where to find.
Tom,
What is tailing?

Here is an example of a combination rope/chain gypsy...

HOLLYWOOD

Marin,
You are correct, a Lofrans Royal. It looks like it specs out too light for our vessel- but have never had any problems with it.
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10391|29596|321924&id=540964

. the only reason to go manual is because one is too cheap!


NOT SO.

If the unit simply was to haul the anchor up this might be true.

If one goes cruising contact with the ground is assured , eventually.

Then the windlass will be required to help get the boat off , and the downfall of an electric unit is if overloaded the white smoke comes out .

A SL 555 can pull really hard with its 40 -1 gearing and 3 ft lever , and sure it would not be first choice if 200 ft of 3/8 chain in 90 ft of water were used .

Personally I only use chain in coral, and never hang 90 ft straight down,
If the water is 15 ft deep, all you lift is 15 ft of chain , till you lift the anchor.

Hydraulic is the #1 choice if power is required , as on overload , it simply stops , no problem.

For a larger cruising boat I would chose an Ideal power unit , but I would get 2 used sailboat large capacity 2 speed sheet winches , one for each stern quarter .Self tailing winches , if you can find them.

And anchor them really well as 60-1 gearing can be had , enough to stretch 5/8 line !

Sheet winches aft are useful for docking too!

FF wrote:
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Then the windlass will be required to help get the boat off , and the downfall of an electric unit is if overloaded the white smoke comes out .

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Not if the windless is correctly wired. A properly installed windlass will have a circuit breaker that will trip before you damage it electrically if over loaded.

-- Edited by Larry M on Sunday 9th of January 2011 08:48:02 AM

My previous rant was written after years of watching people with manual windlass's
retrieve anchors.... most of the types that had these had older HEAVY boats and anchored with all chain... watching them retrieve all that chain and the hook from a 40' deep anchorage was almost painful... I sometimes felt guilty ( OK so it was just being smug ) when after they had been standing over the pulpit .. sweating... and wheezing for 15 minutes, The Admiral would stand on the button and raise the hook in a couple minutes.
A light race boat that is trying to save weight with all rope and 5' of chain and a Fortress anchor isnt the issue... no windless makes total sense.* We do have
" cruising"* boats here right??
F.F. regarding the comment about a " smoking" electric windless... I have never had that happen... could it ... you bet!. But... a Properly sized windless and installed correctly it would be VERY rare. In a perfect world Hydraulic is the only way to go... but it has its issues also....* I wish Volunteers' windless had been hydraulic vs. electric... but the electric one was there and still is.
HOLLYWOOD

"A properly installed windlass will have a circuit breaker that will trip before you damage it electrically if over loaded. "

No doubt , but the problem is the same , the unit can not be intentionally worked beyond some fuse or circuit breakers decision.

With a manual unit 2 folks can crank if its deemed worth the risk.

"A properly installed windlass will have a circuit breaker that will trip before you damage it electrically if over loaded."

The circuit protection device is there to protect the wiring, not the load.

For a good example, an electric bow thruster has a short operational limit because it will overheat and destroy itself or severely shorten its life. The circuit breaker or fuse won't open because it isn't overloading while it destroys itself from heat.

You might never see an electric winch smoke but chances are when it fails it will be related to overheating of the brush rigging (loss of spring tension) or windings.

-- Edited by RickB on Monday 10th of January 2011 06:47:58 AM

Marin wrote:The model best suited for our size of boat is the Tigres.




First two shots are of the boat's original windlass, last shot is the Lofrans Tigres.* The Tigres was often standard issue on GB42s.* GBs larger than 42' use the Lofrans one size larger-- I don't remember the model name.



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 5th of January 2011 03:05:53 PM

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Interesting story about our Tigres.* I've used it for years, but always wondered about the insides.* I was concerned about what condition it was in since it came with the boat and was probably original (1987).* I pulled our anchor hundreds of times, but always worried about what would happen if the windlass failed. No way could I pull it by hand.* Last winter I pulled it off the boat and took it apart.* Inside was a train wreck.* It was falling apart due to a prior shoddy repair (broken pawl)* The lesson I took from this is to always have a back-up plan.* I now carry a come-along .................Arctic Traveller

*

Interestingly, I did the same thing with our Lofran winch, the outside looked ok, but the inside had extensive corrosion, the motor was a rebuild, not a Lofran, it was all pretty damp in there as the main seal had disintegrated.

We cleaned it all up, painted it and waited for it fail, 4 years on still going strong.However I do have the manual on standby as I know the day will come.

Good discussion and info here. We're in the process of replacing our PowerWinch (a photo was provided on this thread about a page back) that has the chain gypsy and rode drum on the one side, which makes it quite easy to handle everything while retrieving. But the windlass is old and has other issues.We have just purchased a 33# Rocna (no debate required) and are planning on replacing our line with 200' rode and 50' chain(no debate required).
Coastal cruising in BC and the PNW on a 32' that comes in at 12,000# (MFR) to 19,000# (Travelift) depending on the day.
The windlass that we are contemplating is a Maxwell HRC10-8 which has the combo chain/rode feature, which we like for its apparent ease of use. Has anyone had experience with this type of windlass? Although I'd like to hear comments on Maxwell, the question is really more generic around the combined chain/rode application on a single gypsy.
We're aware of concerns about the splice needing to be closely monitored as it tends to get some abuse as it goes through the gypsy, and there is some debate as to whether brait or 3 strand works better.
So, any experience on this setup?

The windlass you are considering has very good genes.

I have the predecessor on my boat - a Nilsson-Maxwell H700.* It is vintage 1970's.

As my boat is a replica, I wanted a winch that looked 'right'.

I found it 2nd hand, got a great price on it*- and amazingly had hardly been used - this confirmed when I took the thing apart for inspection and clean-up.* It appears to have been a deck ornament for its life.

It uses a Lucas 12v starter motor(easily rebuild-able) for the drive and the gear box is very substantial.

The thing I really like about it is how fast it pulls up the chain.

I talked with the Maxwell rep at the Seattle boat show last month about the unit, and he was quite helpful in offering the 'tricks' to disassemble and maintain the unit.

There are very few parts available for mine these days, but when/if the gears wear out, I will either toss it out or have the one bronze gear wheel remade by a machine shop - as of last week, the gears are like new.

the first pic of the unit before clean up and paint.

I don't have a pic of how it looks now, but the second is a manual version of the same model.

Don't have any 1st hand about the new Maxwell you are planning on, but it is supposed to be a pretty nice winch -* and should be more than you will ever need for a boat with your weight and ground tackle.

Thanks bshanafelt; it's great to hear the good things you've said about Maxwell. I had some conversations with some experienced folks down at the marina today and have modified the thinking somewhat. Will still go with the Maxwell HRC10-8 but will change the line configuration to 150' chain and 250' rode, which should cover any possible contingencies such as Alaska or the outside of Vancouver Island.*A huge benefit (aside from the usual "all chain" pluses) is that since the majority of our anchoring is in less than 50' the chain/rode splice will seldom see the gypsy and therefore not be subjected to the wear and tear that we had been warned about.
Although it is oversized for a 32' boat we also looked at the Lofrans Tigres because it has a great reputation and is not a lot more money. Howver, it does not have the ability to handle a rode/chain combination on the same gypsy.

Hello Conrad,

This is exactly the configuration of chain 150' G-4 5/16 plus 250' 5/8 double braid we use. Although the 'splice' we use is a shackle and spliced eye on the braid. It is pretty rare that we hang all the chain out, but it does happen occasionally. I thought about loading up 250' of chain originally, but decided the extra weight was probably not worth it.

- I usually try to anchor in 70' or less if I can.

So, since I would have to be in 150' of depth to really 'need' the windlass to haul up the rode, If I have all the chain and a bunch of the braid out, I usually just drive the boat over the anchor and pull in the braid by hand - it has to be stuffed down the hawse anyway, once clear of the splice, I use the winch.

I also wired up a wireless controller in addition to the footswitch, which is nice when I am spraying the muck off with the blaster.

I also carry a spare anchor Northill with 30' of chain and 250' of 5/8 3 strand.

So far, so good