Thread Creep Bucket: Helms, Colregs and Trains

Capt.Bill11 said:

Think of it this way. The word port is ONE word or syllable. And the word starboard is TWO.

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That helps with part of it. Now is that my port or his?

Capt.Bill11 said:

Think of it this way. The word port is ONE word or syllable. And the word starboard is TWO.

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My horn control has labels for the maneuvering signal buttons.

Well, they were still on the horn even after the collision.

The ones I've seen want to talk Colregs the most are sailboaters. But then by getting into those discussions they show they don't really grasp them. I recall one sometime back talking about the power boats not yielding to him as he needed the entire channel to go side to side and tack into the marina. Apparently because he was under sail, he felt no obligation and felt every other boat should just move aside and aground if necessary.

kthoennes said:

I'm always so amused by debates about Colregs, as if life is ever that neat and tidy, especially among recreational boaters, but even commercial or large boats like these:

Maybe if the captain sent a member of the crew to the bowsprit with a megaphone to read the Colregs to that fishing trawler the collision could have been avoided. (I know there are a million boat collisions on YouTube but to me that one is a perfect example of why these debates about regulatory compliance don't have much connection to reality once you cast off (hmmm, kind of like the boat documentation thread come to think of it)).

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They become very connected to reality once you are sitting in an admiralty court.

Every time I watch that video I'm impressed with the sailor's lack of effort in saving his own bacon. And he's typical of many I come across on the waters. They feel it's their right to tack directly in front of me when I'm already on a divergent course to avoid a collision. They get a long blast from my Kahlenbergs!

Horns don't avert collisions....helms do! Turn the damn thing to stbd!!

FlyWright said:

Every time I watch that video I'm impressed with the sailor's lack of effort in saving his own bacon. And he's typical of many I come across on the waters. They feel it's their right to tack directly in front of me when I'm already on a divergent course to avoid a collision. They get a long blast from my Kahlenbergs!

Horns don't avert collisions....helms do! Turn the damn thing to stbd!!

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Wifey B: I wanted to throw things through the tablet at those stubborn imbeciles. Let's see.

See Boat
See Boat approaching
Avoid collision with boat.

All so simple but we've encountered things like that and the solution was rather simple when it was obvious they were oblivious (to radio, to horn, to sight of boat, to the world at large). We simply got the h... out of the way and let them have it all. Several times we've seen boats coming out of narrow channels as we were about to head in. A pass might have been easy. However, we don't know their skill so we always assume the worst. If that means just waiting outside until they clear, that's fine.

Common sense and courtesy.

If there's a real accident, all I care about is are the people ok. But I don't call what happened in that video an accident. They just took direct aim on each other. Arrest them both.

Ya know, this is an area I think maybe boating on the Lake we lived on helped. We got use to their being like no rhyme or reason as to what others would do and always taking the evasive action. You take the weekend lake boaters and omg. They'll pull skiers or tubes right across your bow. They'll head where they want to go even if other boats are already occupying that space.

Pretty sure a barque with a training crew is the not most maneuverable of vessels. Standing on was probably the safest move the captain could've made. Falling off course and loss of way would have probably had the dragger hit amidships.

The issue here isn't who was stand on and who was give way, but one of proper watch keeping.

N/S Correct. Now I need to jump in. Recreational boaters who think the rules are silly or unnecessary or want to argue with a couple hundred years of maritime law are just asking for strict universal licensing laws to be imposed. If that is what you want go for it. I'd like less regulation not more, but have it your way. Next case, If anyone would like to learn and understand how all the rules work, (International, inland, Canadian, Lakes and rivers, world wide buoyage) there is an interactive program called rules master pro, produced by the Aussies by the way, that might be a great way to spend some time this winter. Bill

WINTER! Who mentioned winter?

Stop it!

kthoennes said:

I'm always so amused by debates about Colregs, as if life is ever that neat and tidy, especially among recreational boaters, but even commercial or large boats like these:

Maybe if the captain sent a member of the crew to the bowsprit with a megaphone to read the Colregs to that fishing trawler the collision could have been avoided. (I know there are a million boat collisions on YouTube but to me that one is a perfect example of why these debates about regulatory compliance don't have much connection to reality once you cast off (hmmm, kind of like the boat documentation thread come to think of it)).

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The sailboat captain was Mike O'Day from the little poem in post #28

boatdriver47 said:

N/S Correct. Now I need to jump in. Recreational boaters who think the rules are silly or unnecessary or want to argue with a couple hundred years of maritime law are just asking for strict universal licensing laws to be imposed. If that is what you want go for it. I'd like less regulation not more, but have it your way. Next case, If anyone would like to learn and understand how all the rules work, (International, inland, Canadian, Lakes and rivers, world wide buoyage) there is an interactive program called rules master pro, produced by the Aussies by the way, that might be a great way to spend some time this winter. Bill

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Wifey B: They're not silly, no more so than traffic laws on the roads. Just they don't say throw common sense out the window. That accident was like seeing a stalled car in the road and deciding just to go on and run it over. As to maritime laws, both of those would be found in violation.

One needs to know the rules, but that doesn't turn one into a responsible boater by itself. I didn't read where anyone said they were unnecessary, just said in the video posted, one didn't need to know any rules to avoid the accident and I quite imagine one or both did know the rules.

Winter? We don't do winter.

loafs and fishes said:

The sailboat captain was Mike O'Day from the little poem in post #28

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I first heard that poem in 1985 when taking driver's training and learning about defensive driving.

The port to port oncoming boats pass is so well understood here I would not sound a stbd divergence if the oncoming boat was not complying, I sound 5 blasts. Most boaters, however ignorant, know that means they are messing up.
One time in Jerusalem Bay on the Hawkesbury a small ski boat was darting around unpredictably, I signaled a turn to stbd, one blast, they looked mystified, but at least they took notice.

BandB said:

Wifey B: That accident was like seeing a stalled car in the road and deciding just to go on and run it over. As to maritime laws, both of those would be found in violation.

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Only the fishing boat was found in violation, fined, and made to pay reparation.

Northern Spy said:

Only the fishing boat was found in violation, fined, and made to pay reparation.

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Is there a damages multiplier for what looks like malicious intent? I`m forced to consider malice, you`d hope no one could be that stupid, it must have been obvious there was a large number of crew/pax on the sail vessel.

Master and mate were down below. Engineer was watch standing. Presumably asleep.

Northern Spy said:

Only the fishing boat was found in violation, fined, and made to pay reparation.

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If that is true, that would be a very rare judgement. It's my understanding that in almost all cases the allotment of fault is divided between all the vessels involved to a greater or lesser extent.

I find it hard to believe the sailing vessel did not get allocated some % of fault. As far as I could see they did nothing to prevent the collision other then sound a horn.

Northern Spy said:

Master and mate were down below. Engineer was watch standing. Presumably asleep.

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Someone made a decision to operate the horn rather than turn the wheel or power down.

The horn was coming from the sailing vessel.

Once the engineer wakes up you can see the black smoke as he hits full reverse just before or at the time of the collision.

Capt.Bill11 said:

The horn was coming from the sailing vessel.

Once the engineer wakes up you can see the black smoke as he hits full reverse just before or at the time of the collision.

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I thought it was coming from the fishing vessel. Well that changes how I look at it.

BandB said:

I thought it was coming from the fishing vessel. Well that changes how I look at it.

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I bet!

Was the fishing vessel fishing? Looks like he had gear in the water. Stopping or significantly altering course would be a royal PITA if even possible. The sailboat has his sails up sure but he's very maneurverable none the less. Ten to fifty times as maneuverable as the fish boat if he had gear down.

Does he?

What? Another case a sailboater believes all other vessels must avoid him?

Nope not fishing. Outriggers out for stability while in transit.

It's not unheard of that fishermen go to sleep and leave navigation to the autopilot.

Northern Spy said:

Nope not fishing. Outriggers out for stability while in transit.

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Was the sailing vessel only under sail, or was it's engine running at the time?

You seem to know the details. Is there an findings report you can direct us to?

Somewhere around 20 to 25 seconds into the video is where the sailboat should have begun turning to starboard. Collision avoided. I'll bet there was a bit of "Hey, we're under sail, we're standing on" thinking going on in the sailboat skipper's head.

FlyWright said:

That helps with part of it. Now is that my port or his?

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Here's how I remember the horn signals:

Think "self-centered". (By that I mean The one first sending the signal is who's port/starboard is the subject)

1 blast, (1 syllable in "port") I'm leaving you to my port.
2 blasts, (2 syllables in "starboard") I'm leaving you to my starboard.
Make sense?

By the way, Power Boating for Dummies has this WRONG!

I like thread creep.

Old deckhand said:

Red right returning is for returning from the sea.

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Not anywhere else in the world. It is presumed you are returning to a port/harbour/marina, and the IALA bouyage regs are the Green is to the right in this case.

Navigation – buoys, marks and beacons (Maritime Safety Queensland)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_mark

Here is the entry to Brisbane river and port as an example..I think...

Entry to Brisbane river and port won't work...I'll work on that, meantime you can find it here map no 10...Moreton Bay..

http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Boating-maps/Moreton-Bay-guides.aspx