missing: 3 quarts

I've been laboring on my new-to-me boat this Labor Day weekend. One of the things the surveyor told me to do was change the fluid in the port side transmission; he said it looked pretty bad (almost as bad as the fuel filters looked). It measured right at the "full when hot" level on the dip stick before I started to drain it. I drained the fluid using the hose that runs to the heat exchanger, expecting roughly a gallon, but I ended up with roughly a quart. I then siphoned off a little more fluid with a small tube crammed into the hole used by the dip stick, but I'm still closer to a quart than a gallon. What happened to the other 3 quarts? And, how much fresh transmission fluid should I put back in?
Marine Trader 38
Ford / American Diesel 135 hp (twin)
Borg Warner Velvet Drive
No. 10-14-000-004
http://www.dintra.com/download/Velvet Drive Owner's Manual.pdf

I can't get the link open- but I suspect it is telling you to refill with one gallon.
I also have a pair of FL135's pushing Velvet Drives. The stbd cooler failed several years back and I had to change the oil a few times to remove the water contaminated oil and remember pulling it out with my Jabsco electric pump set up. I always pulled from the filler tube of course- but it always seemed that some oil didn't get pulled out and blended with new oil I installed. I don't remember how much to fill.

If it were me I would refill to full on the stick. Probably will take a quart judging by what you got out. Run it an hour and check the oil color and condition.
I hope there's a better way. I'm standing by to see...


Forky
1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

the book says it has 4 qt's, I would think more needs to get pumped out.

At least 3+

Others with hands on experience can chime in.

Greetings,
Do these transmissions not have a drain plug on the bottom?

To change the tranny fluid on my BW, I use a manual pump from a Mercruiser OD. I stick the pump straw into the tranny case through the dipstick hole. I pump what I can get, then add to just a smidge above the full line. This has worked for me for the past 8 years as recommended by a fellow BW owner.

On my charter boat, I remove the oil after using the boat (oil is at operating temperature) by removing the line from the heat exchanger where it connects back at the transmission. Stick it in a bucket; run the engine till the hose starts spitting air (less than a minute); then reconnect the hose and fill with oil. Gets almost all the oil out. If your oil is really dirty, you might want to change it a second time after maybe 5 hours. If you only get 90% of the old oil and the residue out on the first change, doing it twice theoretically gets 99% out after 2 changes. Most hold less than a gallon, so it's not really much of an expense to do it twice if it's really dirty.

Ted

O C Diver said:

On my charter boat, I remove the oil after using the boat (oil is at operating temperature) by removing the line from the heat exchanger where it connects back at the transmission. Stick it in a bucket; run the engine till the hose starts spitting air (less than a minute); then reconnect the hose and fill with oil.

Click to expand...

Now THAT is very interesting. When I initially tried to drain the fluid, I too used the hose connection that runs to the cooler; it is at the very bottom of the transmission housing. BUT, I did not run the engine; I just let it gravity drain via the disconnected hose. Do you think it is possible that there are roughly 2.8 quarts that are hiding in a pool somewhere in my transmission? I also wonder if the tilt of the prop shaft messes up the "full" level indicated on the dipstick. I like your idea of running the engine until it starts spitting air. I'll try that next time I mess with it. For now, I'll try to make regular checks to see how its doing. Thanks very much.

Are you draining from the hose that runs to the cooler, or the hose from the cooler (to the bottom of the transmission). The line from the cooler should drain all your oil.


4 quarts is the capacity of the transmission only, and there is probably another quart in the cooler and lines, so you are definitely short.


It doesn't appear that these models can be pumped out from the dipstick. This just needs to be open when draining to allow an air intake.

How did the surveyor determine the oil was in need of changing? Prior to your purchase how long was the oil in service? If the oil was indeed deemed bad due to oil analysis was not the integrity of the transmission in question?

Are you having the eventually removed oil analyzed?

Greetings,
Again. Do these transmissions not have a drain plug on the bottom? I think mine does...

Hmmm, don't think I would wait. A 25% oil change doesn't accomplish much. When you disconnect the return line at the transmission, you should be able to pump out almost all the oil by running the engine. Need to make sure you have the correct hose or there will be a mess when you start the engine.

Ted

RTF
I never checked mine actually- it's too tight to get any sort of pan in there.


Forky
1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

Greetings,
Mr. F. Thanks for the response. OK, I'm NOT bragging again here but there appears to be room under my tranny for a 90 degree elbow which can potentially be connected via hose and manifold to the oil extract system I use for engine oil changes IF, in fact, there IS a drain plug down there. Just thinking about easing future maintenance.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. F. Thanks for the response. OK, I'm NOT bragging again here but there appears to be room under my tranny for a 90 degree elbow which can potentially be connected via hose and manifold to the oil extract system I use for engine oil changes IF, in fact, there IS a drain plug down there. Just thinking about easing future maintenance.

Click to expand...

Yes, my trawler transmission is connected to the oil change pump in that way, as is the genset engine oil pan.

Ted

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Again. Do these transmissions not have a drain plug on the bottom? I think mine does...

Click to expand...

To answer your question, my velvet drive does not have a drain plug. However, the connection to the hose which runs to the cooler is at the very bottom of the transmission, and can effectively become a drain plug by just disconnecting the hose. I think a T could certainly be added to incorporate an oil extraction system.

sunchaser said:

How did the surveyor determine the oil was in need of changing? Prior to your purchase how long was the oil in service? If the oil was indeed deemed bad due to oil analysis was not the integrity of the transmission in question? Are you having the eventually removed oil analyzed?

Click to expand...

I think the color of the fluid was the surveyor's main concern. He considered the fluid "too old" but not "potentially dangerous". The surveyor recommended new oil in the engines and transmissions, then an oil sample for everything after I put roughly 50 hours on the engines. So, that is what I'll try to do. I bought the boat 100 miles from where I live, so my time on the boat will be limited to weekends until I can bring it home.

The Velvet Drive 10-14's (and 10-13's - both called CR2's) are what they call "drop center" transmissions. The reduction gear at the rear is actually lower than the F/R gearbox and the down angle exacerbates this. Also, if the fluid level reading is correct AFTER the trans has sat for at least a few minutes, then the transmission is under filled because it is normal for the oil in the cooler and lines to drain back. The trans oil is correctly checked immediately after engine shutdown. All this means you won't really get the amount of oil out that you think you will. Draining from the lower return hose port is the spec'd method, but it won't get it all. I usually just suck it out through the dipstick hole.

Get out what you can and replace. Then see how it looks. If you think its still too dirty, do it again. Its easy enough to do.

RT - To answer your question - there is no oil drain plug on these.



Ken

Puzzle solved- and other great information as well. Thanks


Forky
1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

kchace said:

The Velvet Drive 10-14's (and 10-13's - both called CR2's) are what they call "drop center" transmissions...

Click to expand...

Great information. Thanks very much. I may take another crack at this next weekend, now that I know a little more about it.

It was late when I wrote that and I wanted to add one other thing. I find that when "sucking" the oil out of the dipstick hole, the tube I insert has a tendency to curl around inside the case and ends up higher than the bottom! I have to try it a few different ways and different lengths of insertion to get the most oil out, but I am able to get out 2.5-3 qts.

Ken

kchace said:

I have to try it a few different ways and different lengths of insertion to get the most oil out, but I am able to get out 2.5-3 qts.

Click to expand...

Understood. I think I will also experiment with a smaller diameter tube next weekend. Thanks very much.

the final word...

I tried Ken's suggestion of disconnecting the hose that runs from transmission to cooler, sticking one end in a bucket, and running the transmission until it stops squirting transmission fluid out of the hose. Still, at best, I could only get 2 quarts out. I had come to the conclusion that the dipstick "full" mark was lying to me because of the 5.58 degree down-slope of the engine and shaft, and I was ready to throw in 2 more quarts and hope for the best. But, I decided to run this by Bob Smith at American Diesel, and I will follow his recommendations (see below)...

Do not overfill the transmissions! You must trust the dipstick and ignore the written reference which says four quarts. These transmissions will retain a lot of oil in the rear housing but to drain this means you need to remove the reduction, a bad job at best. Suck out what oil you can from the cooler line which goes to the bottom of the housing. Put new oil in until reading full on the stick. Start the engine and shift the transmission Forward to Reverse. Shut the engine off and read immediately. Top up as needed, but do not overfill. Note the starboard transmission holds less oil than the port transmission. Are you doing oil testing at least once a year - - - you should be!