3 point snubber attachment

GFC · Sep 5, 2015

sunchaser said:
Yes I use a snubber. But I've often wondered how many windlasses are damaged by not using one. Is this a red herring topic? The deck mounted drums on the front of most commercial fishing boats are snubber free from my observations. How about the enormous strains imposed on sailing winches?

I anchored for years on the Mississippi with an all rope rode and windlass holding all the current induced strain. Never had an issue. Guess that Trojan woodie was just stouter than our FRP vessels today.

Tom, are you looking to get a job on "Myth Busters"?

That old tale about windlasses being destroyed by the pull of the chain has been around forever but, speaking for myself here, I've never actually met someone who suffered that.

BTW, when are you headed back south? 10/29 for us.

CPseudonym · Sep 5, 2015

sunchaser said:
Is this a red herring topic?

I've thought so for a long time and this thread thus far has done nothing to change my mind.

Ted · Sep 5, 2015

No snubber used here.

Ted

caltexflanc · Sep 5, 2015

GFC said:
Tom, are you looking to get a job on "Myth Busters"?

That old tale about windlasses being destroyed by the pull of the chain has been around forever but, speaking for myself here, I've never actually met someone who suffered that.

BTW, when are you headed back south? 10/29 for us.

Well I have, including a couple of severely damaged pulpits. If you are never exposed to severe weather and seas then you won't have the experience. Comparing to a commercial boat that has equipment built to the task and a crew to stand by and run the engines is a nonsequator.

Like many things it is hard for some boaters to understand long-term cause and effect. Windlasses "worn out". Soft decks around the pulpit. Leaks and so on.

CPseudonym · Sep 5, 2015

Who on this forum has worn out a windlass from not using a snubber?

Who has damaged a pulpit because they where not using a snubber?

Soft decks or a paper thin flimsy pulpits are at least valid excuses IMO.

Capt.Bill11 · Sep 5, 2015

caltexflanc said:
Well I have, including a couple of severely damaged pulpits. If you are never exposed to severe weather and seas then you won't have the experience. Comparing to a commercial boat that has equipment built to the task and a crew to stand by and run the engines is a nonsequator.

Like many things it is hard for some boaters to understand long-term cause and effect. Windlasses "worn out". Soft decks around the pulpit. Leaks and so on.

What George said.

markpierce · Sep 5, 2015

Craig, it looks so seamanlike to deploy a snubber! After all, it does no harm. So does displaying a dayshape despite it being a legal requirement. Regardless, a snubber reduces stress on the boat.

caltexflanc · Sep 5, 2015

CPseudonym said:
Who on this forum has worn out a windlass from not using a snubber?

Who has damaged a pulpit because they where not using a snubber?

Soft decks or a paper thin flimsy pulpits are at least valid excuses IMO.

The issue is people have these problems and don't realize the root cause. The other issue is there obviously aren't many people on this forum with experience anchoring in bad conditions. I suspect the people saying "no problema" also weigh anchor with the windlass, rather than powering the boat forward as part of the process.

Of course there are others that transfer the load to a chain stopper or samson post or cleat, but even then you are putting tremendous strain in bad conditions on those component systems and inducing a very uncomfortable jerking action on the whole boat. Once experienced, folks typically become snubber aficionados pronto.

And again, I will testify I have seen two damaged pulpits. I'll see if I can pull up a picture of one, incurred off the Dry Tortugas, from the archives.

GFC · Sep 5, 2015

caltexflanc said:
I suspect the people saying "no problema" also weigh anchor with the windlass, rather than powering the boat forward as part of the process.

Wow, that was quite a leap to get from "use a snubber or not" to "powering the boat forward or not". It's amazing how some get their exercise jumping to conclusions.

Oh, and for the record, I'm "not guilty" of using the windlass to pull the boat to the anchor. Just sayin'.

caltexflanc · Sep 5, 2015

GFC said:
Wow, that was quite a leap to get from "use a snubber or not" to "powering the boat forward or not". It's amazing how some get their exercise jumping to conclusions.

Oh, and for the record, I'm "not guilty" of using the windlass to pull the boat to the anchor. Just sayin'.

I said "I suspect" now tell me, why would you want to power forward on the one hand, but disdain a snubber on the other?

Oh, here's one of the pics:

ksanders · Sep 5, 2015

caltexflanc said:
I said "I suspect" now tell me, why would you want to power forward on the one hand, but disdain a snubber on the other?

Oh, here's one of the pics:

WOW!

I'm looking at that photo and I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with ther thickness of that pulpit. :blush:

Thats gotta be what 3/4" thick? Or maybe it's just 3/4" thick plywood covered be 1/8" of jell coat.

I'm wondering with all that inherent strength how you could ever break a pulpit like that. :hide:

Now this is an anchor pulpit. It took six inch bolts to bolt the windlass and the threads were tight length wise.

GFC · Sep 5, 2015

Good comeback George. I don't disdain the use of a snubber, I just don't know if it's the absolute necessary item of equipment on a boat. Where we boat and anchor we're in pretty protected waters.

I've considered building one using a chain hook like the Mantus chain hook. I would attach it to my forward cleats to take the strain off the pulpit and roller.

GFC · Sep 5, 2015

ksanders said:
WOW!

I'm wondering with all that inherent strength how you could ever break a pulpit like that.

Let it get wet over a period of time so the plywood rots. That would work.

Northern Spy · Sep 6, 2015

I always figured the snubber as an anti-noise sleeping at anchor thing and don't jerk the anchor free from the seafloor thing that morphed into a don't break the windlass/capstan so the manufactures can sell lighter hardware and more of it at a lower price point thing.

I'm a wee little combo rode guy, so I got no dog in this fight.

Marin · Sep 6, 2015

The only purposes of a snubber that I've seen described are 1) a means of adding a shock absorber to an all-chain rode to protect deck hardware (cleats, bollards, windlass gears, etc) from stress, strain and potential damage when the catenary is pulled out of the chain, 2) a means of eliminating the noise transmtted through a boat by the chain moving in the bow roller as the boat moves while at anchor and, 3) a means of lowering the angle of pull on the anchor shank.

Of these 1) is the most important.

This our arrangement. We let the chain grab down about 8 feet under the surface of the water. The bottom of the loop of chain hanging down between the chain grab and the pulpit roller is 15 to 20 feet below the surface of the water.

BruceK · Sep 6, 2015

Last time we were beating up this particular horse someone posted an nasty pic of stripped windlass gears due to overloading. So there might be something to it. Doesn`t cost a lot to do, as someone said it looks very pro, it quietens chain clanking, seems to smooth out sudden jerks (on the rode thanks), and if it fails the load goes back on the chain so it "fails safe", (except of course if the reverting load rips the windlass apart).

Marin · Sep 6, 2015

The original windlass on our boat lunched some gear teeth during an anchor retrieve. There was no undue strain on the windlass at the time. One moment it was running fine and the next it had locked up solid. We have no idea what the windlass was subjected to before we bought the boat. So it's very possible the gear train had been subjected to a severe strain in the past.

We replaced it with a Lofrans Tigres.

FF · Sep 6, 2015

"The snubber line should be the same size as what you would use for a rope rode for the boat in question."

I would disagree , the purpose of the snubber is to add elastic stretch into a solid chain system.

Bu using say 30 ft of 3/8 line on 40 ft of released chain the nylon can stretch , and if overloaded and snaps , breaking causes no danger.

Nylon takes about 10% of its breaking load to begin to stretch and smooth the ride.

Nylon is quite strong so very thin works well in most O nite situations.

Over nite even a boat that is nervous and dodges constantly the loads are in the hundreds of pounds , not thousands. Even 1/4 inch snubber line will work in most anchorages.

The hassle with thin is of course chafe , so a shackle into a bow eye just above the water solves the problem.

No problem with having 2 thicknesses of line attached, , so a heavier snubber can be used above 25-30K.

The fear of not using a deck fitting to secure the chain while anchored also comes from fears of the chain jumping out of the gypsy or the usual hook not holding as the loads become cyclical with every wave that stretches the chain barb tight.

When the only thing keeping the chain from going overboard is the gears inside the windlass not turning , there is a risk of overloading a single gear tooth.

healhustler · Sep 6, 2015

Northern Spy said:
I always figured the snubber as an anti-noise sleeping at anchor thing and don't jerk the anchor free from the seafloor thing that morphed into a don't break the windlass/capstan so the manufactures can sell lighter hardware and more of it at a lower price point thing.

Exactly my experience. Since my boat is a fwd berth cabin design, I appreciate that the noise is significantly reduced with a snubber. Another plus is that the boat seems to "hunt" less in the wind when attaching the snubber to two points on either side of the pulpit.

caltexflanc · Sep 6, 2015

Bu using say 30 ft of 3/8 line on 40 ft of released chain the nylon can stretch , and if overloaded and snaps , breaking causes no danger.

Breaking sure as hell does cause danger... now you've got the chain snapping extremely HARD against whatever it is attached to. Rode the size appropriate to the boat stretches just fine, and will hold you when the going gets rough.

Yes I know that is wimpy little pulpit in the pic, guy said it had held up for 20 years mostly of fishing. The real point is not the occasional catastrophic failure, but the creeping wear on the whole system.

By the way, I use those Davis heavy nylon chafe guards where my bridle lines go through the very smooth bow chock. I use long snubber lines so when fully extended the angle through the chock is seemingly not severe. I have seen one of those guards completely worn through and ruined in the course of one overnight storm.

I think Marin summed it up pretty well. However if the snubber is connected to a cleat or bollard on deck, it does not reduce the angle of the pull when fully extended. The attachment point at the boat has to be somewhere closer to the water line. And, I will add again one other very good use: breaking out a very stubborn anchor. I always kept the snubber line cleated after taking the hook off if needed for this purpose; shortening the length significantly if I had to re-deploy it to break the anchor out.

ksanders · Sep 6, 2015

caltexflanc said:
Breaking sure as hell does cause danger... now you've got the chain snapping extremely HARD against whatever it is attached to. Rode the size appropriate to the boat stretches just fine, and will hold you when the going gets rough.

Yes I know that is wimpy little pulpit in the pic, guy said it had held up for 20 years mostly of fishing. The real point is not the occasional catastrophic failure, but the creeping wear on the whole system.

By the way, I use those Davis heavy nylon chafe guards where my bridle lines go through the very smooth bow chock. I use long snubber lines so when fully extended the angle through the chock is seemingly not severe. I have seen one of those guards completely worn through and ruined in the course of one overnight storm.

I think Marin summed it up pretty well. However if the snubber is connected to a cleat or bollard on deck, it does not reduce the angle of the pull when fully extended. The attachment point at the boat has to be somewhere closer to the water line. And, I will add again one other very good use: breaking out a very stubborn anchor. I always kept the snubber line cleated after taking the hook off if needed for this purpose; shortening the length significantly if I had to re-deploy it to break the anchor out.

Thanks for finally seeing my scarasm

I was wondering if I had lost my touch.

I agree that a snubber is a good thing when deployed in rough conditions. Although I do not use mine every time I anchor, whhen I anchor overnight I deploy it, just in case.

Marin · Sep 6, 2015

As George says, a snubber cleated on deck does not reduce the angle of pull on the anchor shank once the catenary is taken our of the chain rode. It does still provide shock absorbing at that point, however.

The reason we let our chain grab down so far under the surface of the water and then let the loop of chain down even farther than that is with that much more weight hanging down there it takes more force to lift it up. So I guess the more accurate statement is that it helps keep the angle of pull on the anchor shank lower a little longer.

sunchaser · Sep 6, 2015

Not all boats have pulpits. Most windlasses have dog stops to protect the windlass gears. I'm not anti snubber, just enjoying pictures of rotted pulpits and other iffy reasoning.

Horror of horrors, last night watched 3 sailboats dragging in Ganges during a 23 knot willywaw. they all had snubbers but seemingly small anchors and rope rode.

Now, back to factual information on windlasses that have been torn asunder from well found vessels because a snubber was not utilized.

Marin · Sep 6, 2015

Our Lofrans windlass has a dog stop if that's what it's called, and we use it once the rode is out the amount we want. The boat's original windlass did not have this feature. Whether this contributed to its eventual sheering of some gear teeth we have no way of knowing.

Codger2 · Sep 6, 2015

healhustler said:
Exactly my experience. Since my boat is a fwd berth cabin design, I appreciate that the noise is significantly reduced with a snubber..

menzies · Sep 6, 2015

There are two reason for a snubber.

First, as stated to take the strain off the windlass (or post if wrapped there), especially in gusty conditions where the chain is constantly pulling and loosening. The other, and just as valid, is to cut down on noise, especially during the night and especially for those in a bow berth.

[edit: apologies, I missed the last page of posts before I commented.]

caltexflanc · Sep 6, 2015

sunchaser said:
Not all boats have pulpits. Most windlasses have dog stops to protect the windlass gears. I'm not anti snubber, just enjoying pictures of rotted pulpits and other iffy reasoning.

Horror of horrors, last night watched 3 sailboats dragging in Ganges during a 23 knot willywaw. they all had snubbers but seemingly small anchors and rope rode.

Now, back to factual information on windlasses that have been torn asunder from well found vessels because a snubber was not utilized.

A snubber on rope rodes? That doesn't make any sense. Why don't you consult some windlass manufacturers or their manuals, see what they say? Having done so myself, I just can't imagine they would say such things! ;o).

For instance: Maxwell: "Do not use the windlass as a bollard! In all but the lightest conditions, engage the chainstopper or bollard after completing the anchoring manoeuvre. This will avoid damage to the gearbox and possible bending of the stainless steel shaft" "In heavy weather conditions, always use a heavy anchor snub or stop from the chain directly to a bollard or firmly fixed deck cleat"

Ideal: "Shock absorption can also be a concern with all chain. Under most conditions the weight of the chain will cause a sag in the chain offering gentle shock absorption. When conditions are such that the chain is pulled straight back and there is no shock absorption a snubber can be added"

But suit yourself. If you have to have some direct immediate cataclysmic evidence for any best practice, good luck to you! Some stuff happens quickly, some stuff happens over time. And some stuff never happens if you are not "out there" much.

FlyWright · Sep 7, 2015

A snubber on rope rodes? That doesn't make any sense.

There's just no splainin' what those blowboaters think is right!! There's no way Tom was suggesting that as a recommended method. I remember him telling me it doesn't work for sh1t!

FF · Sep 7, 2015

"A snubber on rope rodes? That doesn't make any sense."

Some lazy folks will anchor every night with a storm sized anchor and rode.

This will seldom stretch in most O'nite anchorages as the loads are so light.

So with a Nervous Nellie that wanders a lot , it might help soften the jerk when the boar veers from side to side.

Much preferred is that big anchor with an anchor line suitable for the conditions.

IF the Mfg of a fine product sez,

"Do not use the windlass as a bollard! In all but the lightest conditions, engage the chainstopper or bollard after completing the anchoring manoeuvre."

It might not be wise to out think him.

sunchaser · Sep 7, 2015

Been on some vessels where the load on the windlass is taken up by a chain stopper, devils claw or pelican hook. No sign of a rope snubber hanging into the water.

Another simple solution for removing the load on the windlass is to employ a short length of strong line with a chain hook grabbing the chain a few feet in front of the windlass and tied off to the bollard.

Of course if Fortress is to be believed, most of our anchors are dragging anyway before the windlass to deck integrity is tested. :hide:

When Fortress did their recent pull test promo, was a snubber used? And again, how do those weird sail boats get by without a snubber on their deck mounted winches? Saw two warping winches on a large yacht yesterday and no sign of deck fatigue or bent over winch.

Puzzling to say the least -----

3 point snubber attachment

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