Melt Down Anybody??

Using Inet prices (most from Fisheries Supply) here the $ for a 2x30 amp “refit” (except the last) from and including the boat inlet to the Y, using 50’ cables:

Marinco - $370
Hubbell - $438
S’plug - $654
Marinco 50 amp - $1,090

Rightly or wrongly, I’m through with Marinco. Going to Hubbell, I might save the cost of the new boat side entrance (need to pull that apart and inspect), but I’m not optimistic about its condition after reading some of the above. FF is of the opinion that Hubbell is a better product. Will Hubbell locking rings mate up with Marinco plugs?

Psneed probably has the best setup for eliminating the problem (heavy capacity working at light loading), but there’s initial cost and the need to be humping 50 amp cable around.

As I see it, its Hubbell v Smartplug. Decisions, decisions ……

Capt.Bill11 said:

FYI, a 240 50a cord is made up of two 120v legs. So no matter how you are using it, you are pulling 120v through the plug.

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Ahh yes. I remember the last time we argued this.

I went with Furrion...much less expensive and so far after 1.25 years...satisfied.


As far as humping the cable...I use a short shck cord and start a loop with the power cord...then I just roll it up on the deck or dock. I usually am just ICW so except for open passage stuff...I ony disconnect the dock end...roll...and toss it up on the forward cabin top.


In 10 years when I may be too feeble to lift 50 feet of it...I'll cut off the ends, the cord in half and make 2-24 foot sections.

N4712 said:

Ahh yes. I remember the last time we argued this.

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psneeld said:

In 10 years when I may be too feeble to lift 50 feet of it...I'll cut off the ends, the cord in half and make 2-24 foot sections.

Click to expand...

Im feeble enough for both of us, how about making up 4-10'ers and an 8'

CPseudonym said:

Im feeble enough for both of us, how about making up 4-10'ers and an 8'

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Naw...too much like a Lego power cord...

At that point I think I would get a Glendenning Cablemaster...

Sweeeeet!

psneeld said:

You are so wrong on both those points...especially calling me silly may make it three.


The 50A is a totally different design...just how it stays secure I believe is all it takes to be more effective than the 30A.


and where are your stats to prove me wrong staistically?


As I said..if the threat is so real...where is the public and governmental outcry?


I acknowledged that the smart plug is probably a better design...heck there are probably better EVERYTHING that was on my boat when I bought it and even after I replaced it all with 21st century stuff.


But a $5 Timex tells as good a time as a Rolex...it may not last a lifetime...but you get my point I am sure.


You will have the last laugh is my boat burns...I am betting my life it wont...at least not from the shore power cord.


Plus...all you ARE drawing through one of the 50A 125/250 plugs is 125V or so...2 times 110 to 125 volts per leg no matter what. I totally understand my setup...not sure you do.

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"Shore power can also be a fire hazard — 11 percent of fires in BoatU.S.’s analysis were started by boats’ AC systems, often at the shore power inlet. AC heaters an" http://threesheetsnw.com/blog/2014/05/why-boats-catch-fire/

http://www.boatus.com/Seaworthy/magazine/SeaJul10.pdf

"A likely place an electrical fire can start is at the boat's inlet receptacle."
http://www.acegroup.com/us-en/assets/shore-power-connections.pdf

http://www.detrick.army.mil/safety/power.cfm

Pleas provide YOUR stats first showing "one in a bazillion" chance of a fire.

You always do this, ask others to provide stats and charts and info when they disagree with you yet you toss out garbage like it is facts without an eyeblink, I guess it's just you being silly.

No I think I am done rolling in the mud with someone that enjoys it so much.

The fire risk is real, look it up.

Boat fires are real and some (many more then 1/bizzillon) are from overheated inlets, look it up.

You may now have the last word, I'm done arguing with you, it's pointless to argue on the internet anyway.

out

Here's Boat US cut on it...only a stat so you really don't know the full problem but based on the number of boat fires from shore power 4%, and the advance notice I have seen in my experience living at marinas...I feel confident in my decisions. and my advice.


There are bigger fish to fry....unless you are anal and have lot's of money to spend on your boat...but again...I don't have enough info and longevity on the smart plug to guarantee anything.


1) AC and DC wiring/appliance - 55%
DC shorts/wiring - 30%
DC engine voltage regulator - 12%
AC appliance/heater 4% shore power - 4%
AC wiring/panel - 2%
DC battery charger - 2%
AC power surge - 1%


Why Boats Catch Fire - Seaworthy - BoatUS


USCG accident stats - 75 fires non-fuel related of known origin....using 2014 stats...


http://uscgboating.org/library/accident-statistics/Recreational-Boating-Statistics-2014.pdf


so at 4 percent (call it an average shore power fire rate)...that may be 3 fires last year from shore power...but of unkown cause which could be dang near any reason including pulling away from the dock plugged in.


of course stats are only a stab in space..but they were requested...

I wonder how many shore plugs are being used at any given time? Then factor in the boats many describe here as "abandoned" because the owner hasn't been seen in years...well you get my drift. If you plug and unplug your vessel with any regularity, and observe the ends, plus do a little maintenance as Capt Bill suggests, and of course monitor your loads... I wouldn't FEAR the traditional plugs....I would just be careful.

At $200-250 a set for plugs, those 10 footers are going to get expensive.

I would like to explere some additional comments made above. First, regarding "greasing" to discourage corrosion - how exactly is that done? Are we talking about the tangs, the internals of the plug, the "sealing collars" ? And, what type of grease ?

Regarding the 30 a twist lock plugs - I gather the male/female tang arrangements are standard, but will the locking collars (rings) work from brand to brand? Some user comments I've read on line seem to indicate that a Hubbell won't work (locking rings) with a Marinco, for example.

Just spray the tangs and socket with Boeshield or something like it on a regular basis.

sbu22 said:

At $200-250 a set for plugs, those 10 footers are going to get expensive.

I would like to explere some additional comments made above. First, regarding "greasing" to discourage corrosion - how exactly is that done? Are we talking about the tangs, the internals of the plug, the "sealing collars" ? And, what type of grease ?

Regarding the 30 a twist lock plugs - I gather the male/female tang arrangements are standard, but will the locking collars (rings) work from brand to brand? Some user comments I've read on line seem to indicate that a Hubbell won't work (locking rings) with a Marinco, for example.

Click to expand...

The old style locking rings sorta worked universally..not there seems to be a few different types that I am not so sure about...and good luck putting X's rings on W's cord.

I had to cut the locking ring off my new cord because several marinas I visited would had one style power post receptacle that didn't accept the cord at all with a locking ring on it while many others could even USE the locking ring.

psneeld said:

pretty rare for the 50 Amp. 125/250 connectors....usually much beefier, aren't hanging by the tangs and obviously carry a much larger load easily.

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IMO, reducing the load in relationship to the plug rating has a lot to do with it.

My charter boat has 30 amp 120 volt service. While the air conditioner can run 12 hours a day continuously (it's under sized), the electrical system never sees over 20 amps. I replaced the guts of the receptacle when I purchased the boat as I moved its location. Have the same power cord which wasn't new when I bought the boat. What I find amazing is that in the 16 seasons I've had the boat, disconnecting and reconnecting the plug to the boat 75 to 100 per season, I've never had a problem. 1200+ connections, no anti corrosion spray etc., and clearly a lot of cord flexing. IMO, my good luck has a lot to do with a lower percentage of capacity utilized.

Ted

".... dang near any reason including pulling away from the dock plugged in ...."

Naw, that couldn't happen. Unless maybe there was a young inexperienced skipper, a new to him sailboat, scantily clad women, maybe a dram or two ...... maybe I just dreamed that.

sbu22 said:

Using Inet prices (most from Fisheries Supply) here the $ for a 2x30 amp “refit” (except the last) from and including the boat inlet to the Y, using 50’ cables:

Marinco - $370
Hubbell - $438
S’plug - $654
Marinco 50 amp - $1,090

Rightly or wrongly, I’m through with Marinco. Going to Hubbell, I might save the cost of the new boat side entrance (need to pull that apart and inspect), but I’m not optimistic about its condition after reading some of the above. FF is of the opinion that Hubbell is a better product. Will Hubbell locking rings mate up with Marinco plugs?

Psneed probably has the best setup for eliminating the problem (heavy capacity working at light loading), but there’s initial cost and the need to be humping 50 amp cable around.

As I see it, its Hubbell v Smartplug. Decisions, decisions ……

Click to expand...

Yes Hubbell rings will work with Marinco inlets just be careful to not cross thread them. We have hubbell shore cords anf Marinco inlets, that i plan on replacing. I like the Stainless threads that the Hubbell inlet has.

I spray this on the plugs before i put them in, almost every time.

psneeld said:

I had to cut the locking ring off my new cord because several marinas I visited would had one style power post receptacle that didn't accept the cord at all with a locking ring on it while many others could even USE the locking ring.

Click to expand...

No need to cut... those rings will slip off and back on...just takes a little practice and a little liquid soap helps.
For thoae that haven't seen a disected twist lock plug take a look at Compass Marine how to article on SPlugs.
Rather enlightening.
Don
'08 MS 34HT
"Bacchus"

O C Diver said:

IMO, reducing the load in relationship to the plug rating has a lot to do with it.

My charter boat has 30 amp 120 volt service. While the air conditioner can run 12 hours a day continuously (it's under sized), the electrical system never sees over 20 amps. I replaced the guts of the receptacle when I purchased the boat as I moved its location. Have the same power cord which wasn't new when I bought the boat. What I find amazing is that in the 16 seasons I've had the boat, disconnecting and reconnecting the plug to the boat 75 to 100 per season, I've never had a problem. 1200+ connections, no anti corrosion spray etc., and clearly a lot of cord flexing. IMO, my good luck has a lot to do with a lower percentage of capacity utilized.

Ted

Click to expand...

You might be correct...but my reading lead to numerous articles that clearly stated a 30 amp cord in GOOD condition can carry the load...they then go on to say...if not in good condition...problems can arise.

Thus the rub.

I think in your case...one of the big factors is that the plug being removed and replaced constantly helps the connection/corrosion problem. Regular use probably ensures that it is tight and the corrosion gets rubbed off. Sure one could argue that it may lead to looseness from wear..but without data...we can only guess.

Bacchus said:

No need to cut... those rings will slip off and back on...just takes a little practice and a little liquid soap helps.
For thoae that haven't seen a disected twist lock plug take a look at Compass Marine how to article on SPlugs.
Rather enlightening.
Don
'08 MS 34HT
"Bacchus"

Click to expand...

Not this baby...I tried everything... my Hubble and Marinco...yes I could get them off...but not the one on my Furion....I even had extra rings and trying to get one back on when not under pressure to plug in was futile also.

I have dealt with many cords through the years working in the marine business...and that one beat me.

Sad thing is if you cut open a 30 or 50A marine cord, it is mostly plastic and filler. Fluff, in other words.

On my dock, I rigged up a 10ga tinned marine cable and put on a 30A industrial end. Super light and flexible and nowhere near as heavy and bulky as a "marine" cord. I do keep a marine cord on the boat for tying up in marinas, but that is pretty rare.

Last "marine" cable I cut up the conductors were not even tinned. But it was pretty old, not sure if new ones are tinned now.

Hate handling 50A cords. Heavy and bulky. Even more fun in the winter when that cheap PVC sheath gets hard as a rock.

I suspect there are regional differences in the type of usage that results in differing opinions. I've often found east coasters who did not share the poor opinion of the marincos units. Here in the PNW, you don't have to go far to find crispy marincos, or yearly fires resulting from cords. It's not even disputed. I think the east coast is too cold, boats come out of the water, and people don't regularly try to heat boats in the winter with space heaters. Winter is when we get boat fires here. Heaters run 24/7, they don't take the night off.

ghost said:

I suspect there are regional differences in the type of usage that results in differing opinions. I've often found east coasters who did not share the poor opinion of the marincos units. Here in the PNW, you don't have to go far to find crispy marincos, or yearly fires resulting from cords. It's not even disputed. I think the east coast is too cold, boats come out of the water, and people don't regularly try to heat boats in the winter with space heaters. Winter is when we get boat fires here. Heaters run 24/7, they don't take the night off.

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My guess is that it may have more to do with the constantly damp environment of the PNW. While you are correct about the space heater load in the winter, walk the docks in July and August from the mid Atlantic South and you will find multiple AC units running 24/7. Amps are amps regardless of whether you are heating or cooling. Corrosion of the plug and receptacle from a constantly damp environment is what likely makes the difference.

Ted

Still looking for the statistics on cord started boat fires...I know people talk about it like it's fact...


But I can't find supporting stats.


According to the BoatUS stats...if is as likely to be space heaters overloading internal circuits and not the power cord...AND that has been my experience as well.

SBU You can use dielectric grease. As you said the connection is made through the grease. You can also spray anti corrosion stuff on assembled interior terminals. It does form a coating and I don't know if the coating will be displaced on terminals.

My Y has threaded lock rings. The plug covers do age and loose their tight fit on the cable so replacing them might stop your water problem.

I wonder if 5200 would work to seal them to the cord.

You would have to cut the cord to replace then but I usually cut back to clean wire anyway.

regarding the 250V 4 wire cords. Strictly speaking it is current that is "moving" through the cord. Current causes the heating at poor conductivity areas. 4 wire cords are indeed two 120V sets within one shell. each set capable of carrying 50 A. They share one neural and one ground due to the miracle of phasing. At any time there is never more than 50 A in neutral even though there can be 50A in each of the load wires.

psneeld said:

Still looking for the statistics on cord started boat fires...I know people talk about it like it's fact...

But I can't find supporting stats.

According to the BoatUS stats...if is as likely to be space heaters overloading internal circuits and not the power cord...AND that has been my experience as well.

Click to expand...

I find it amazing that we continue to debate whether cords\plugs present a hazard.

Personally I don't need statistics to convince me that any shore power component that heats itself to the point of melting and charring is a disaster waiting to happen.

All of the plugs w issues that I have seen have been at the boat end and the many many photos of melted plugs are also at the boat end. Not to say it can't or doesn't happen at the pedestal. I believe it is less frequent and while not a safe situation is less of a hazard to my boat.
I can't recall seeing a photo of a melted pedestal.

Don
'08 MS 34 HT
"Bacchus"

My point is that many char, many melt...but how many turn into fires?

And who can say without a doubt that smart plugs once reaching the same numbers may not have problems too? They probably won't.... so as I have posted they are probably better at preventing a disaster....but not any more than other gizmos that I don't have to prevent all the other "disasters" that can happen to my boat.

All I am saying...not every new, more expensive gizmo that comes along is any more like to save you or your boat just because it is safer or better engineered. Otherwise we would all be swapping boats and equipment faster than we could keep up.

We probably have all had people close to us that made it through a lifetime of boating and many of us are pushing another decade of it without burning or sinking.

Why? Because of just equipment? My boating friends that started back in the turn of last century didn't run out and upgrade their boats after every boat show with shiny new toys and they survived. No, better boaters check their boats and act accordingly, some even more than others.

And yes, every bad meltdown I have seen WAS at the power pole and not the boat end. Usually because it was a non modern power pole not on a floating dock. They were probably submerged at times and were problems waiting to happen.

But I would bet that 99% of charred plugs are taken out of service long before a fire was anywhere in sight....otherwise the stats and the boating safety gurus would be screaming...and like I posted before....I just am not hearing it.

I really appreciate the information. My take, at this point, is that I'm going to replace the Marinco SP cords with Hubbell, thoroughly inspect the boat entrance and act accordingly based on condition, and start using one of the anti-corrosion coatings on a regular basis.

If the entrance is screwed up, I may indulge myself in the Smartplug setup - as much to get out of the stupid "thread the ring" exercise. That has as much to do with the physical placement of the SP entrance on my boat (outboard at the shear line) as the physical merits of the connection.

Thanks, again!

sbu22 said:

I really appreciate the information. My take, at this point, is that I'm going to replace the Marinco SP cords with Hubbell, thoroughly inspect the boat entrance and act accordingly based on condition, and start using one of the anti-corrosion coatings on a regular basis.

If the entrance is screwed up, I may indulge myself in the Smartplug setup - as much to get out of the stupid "thread the ring" exercise. That has as much to do with the physical placement of the SP entrance on my boat (outboard at the shear line) as the physical merits of the connection.

Thanks, again!

Click to expand...

I think Marinco has some new clamp on system versus the threaded ring... the EEL series I think.

Good call, psneed. Checked it out and did some reading. Looks like Marinco is trying to get away from original' EEL uses "jaws" to grab the threaded surface of the conventional Marinco connection. The main user issues with the EEL are: 1. the jaws tear up the plastic threads on the original connection - so you can't go back to the rings (why would you?) and 2. the EEL connector cannot create a weathertight seal between the EEL and the conventional connector on the old style Ys. So you wind up needing the cables plus an EEL configured Y. Back to bucks, again.

sbu22 said:

Good call, psneed. Checked it out and did some reading. Looks like Marinco is trying to get away from original' EEL uses "jaws" to grab the threaded surface of the conventional Marinco connection. The main user issues with the EEL are: 1. the jaws tear up the plastic threads on the original connection - so you can't go back to the rings (why would you?) and 2. the EEL connector cannot create a weathertight seal between the EEL and the conventional connector on the old style Ys. So you wind up needing the cables plus an EEL configured Y. Back to bucks, again.

Click to expand...

Check out SmartPlug they have a straight in 4 point locking design with double weather tight seals. Heavy duty with no play on the connections with boat movement.

It really is a better mousetrap and to many boaters a safer design.

Oh I am also going to replace my Delta with a Rochna next year. I am convinced it is a better design as an all around anchor esp. when resetting is involved during a tide or wind shift while unattended.