Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and Sellers

Ummm did Anita just call Frank a pet rock?

what_barnacles said:

Ummm did Anita just call Frank a pet rock?

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Naw...she was way more PC than I am....

But like using the wrong oil, filter or anchor...fearmongering has become a pastime on TF.

Then it turns into entertainment for those that have not much substantial to offer.

had it easy

Applied for documentation shortly after signing boat's purchase contract with builder. The hull was already constructed, and during the six months when construction was being completed, documentation papers were received (took two to three months to process).

The builder provided purchase documents and boat dimensions needed for the documentation application.

California doesn't require registration for a documented boat.

Builder painted boat name and home port on the stern as well as installed documentation number in boat's interior. No extra charge.

Within two months of delivery, the State California sent a demand for payment of use tax. Mailed them the equivalent of the price of a new car.

Early the following year, Solano County sent paperwork requesting information as to the boat's purchase price. Subsequently received property tax assessment.

psneeld said:

Spoke to Anita working at the NVDC at 1130 this morning (snip)

She said that if you are STATE registered and pending documentation...there is no law that you are violating while operating your vessel (snip)

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Thank you for helping with this.

That is consistent with what I was told. However, we are currently documented and awaiting an exchange of documentation (new COD or TCOD with new owner's info) which I was told by both the person in their legal department and the USCG officer who inquired for me is a different situation.

Before I bother Anita, I'd like to be sure your conversation covered that distinction.

Neeld,


Thanks for clearing that up.
I was going to call this AM, but my feet had barely hit the deck when all hell broke loose! Been tied up ever since.


Thanks for getting the info straight

...pet rock....you sure you weren't a cop or a fireman in some life?

OD

Roger Long said:

The latest from the NVDC:

I just managed to get a very harried sounding woman on the phone at NVDC.

She said I should have received an immediate automated receipt to the email filing I made Friday. If I didn’t, which I did not, then “something isn’t working right in the system”. It sounds therefore, that my Friday re-submission was bounced into the phantom zone.

I mentioned my email to the webmaster asking for live receipt confirmation and she said they are presently reading the emails from 13 August. I infer therefore, that no one will even check to see if my submission went into the system until about 4 September.

I asked what the current backlog and timeline was for TCOD’S and she said they are currently making no promises or giving out any timelines on TCOD or COD deliveries. I said this is a problem because I can’t move the boat until I get a certificate. She said, “That’s right.”

I asked, “Are we talking weeks or months here?”

She said, “I can’t say.”

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Roger,

From the sounds of things, you and Neeld both have pretty extensive expertise and resume's in your respective fields. While I trust and defer to Neelds expertise, I still understand your concern.

Unfortunately, what Neeld received and what you received, were obviously as different as night and day. I'm guessing that the use of "CDR" might have had a bit to do with it. I know it used to get the attention of the admin types around the station

So, when you had your conversation, did you happen to get the woman's name? (Accountability usually helps in getting the right answers). It's still pretty typical of government employees, and I won't back away from that stance. I have had good ones and horrible ones. It happens.

I would do as the CDR suggests. Call them back and ask to speak with Anita. Get an employee number or last name to fall back on if necessary, and get the scoop from her. See if she can or will (politely I might add), send you anything in writing to confirm the conversation.

As we all realize, there's a 99.9999999999999999999% chance absolutely NOTHING will come out of your doc situation. That said, CYA comments do just that, CYA the employee, and do not provide you with a get out of jail/fine free card. Get something in writing if you're still concerned.

Otherwise, I'd register it with the state, move the damn thing and carry on with your boating life.

OD

Off Duty said:

So, when you had your conversation, did you happen to get the woman's name?

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No, I actually wasn't asking about this issue at all but simply whether they could find my application and what their TCOD delivery time was currently so I can plan. She just happened to repeat the standard,"You can't move your boat.", line. We're currently hauled for some major work so I have some time on this.

Since I already have it in writing from the NVDC legal department and confirmed by the USCG guy who tried to find a way around if for me, I'm not going ask someone else until I know what they are going to say. Anita did not say anything different to Pesneld than I have heard before if, I am reading his post correctly. Sure, a state registered boat applying for documentation can continue to operate. We've always known that.

Call them back and ask to speak with Anita.

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I'm going to try and get the BoatUS government affairs guy who is following this to do that. As you say, it sometimes depends who is asking.

See if she can or will (politely I might add), send you anything in writing to confirm the conversation.

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That's how I got into this mess. I asked for it in writing :} I learned long ago not to rely on what I'm told on the phone in a CYA situation. (See Post 83 of this thread.)

How can you be "documented" without a permanent or temp in your hands?


From my understanding and the explanation given to me...is you are documented and should have your temp or permanent COD in hand...and you are good to go.


If not...then park your boat or go ahead and register it with your state...or heck ANY state....and then you are good to go.


If you don't like either of those options...then sit and don't wonder why the world seems to be topsy turvy.

Roger Long said:

No, I actually wasn't asking about this issue at all but simply whether they could find my application and what their TCOD delivery time was currently so I can plan. She just happened to repeat the standard,"You can't move your boat.", line. We're currently hauled for some major work so I have some time on this.

Since I already have it in writing from the NVDC legal department and confirmed by the USCG guy who tried to find a way around if for me, I'm not going ask someone else until I know what they are going to say. Anita did not say anything different to Pesneld than I have heard before if, I am reading his post correctly. Sure, a state registered boat applying for documentation can continue to operate. We've always known that.

I'm going to try and get the BoatUS government affairs guy who is following this to do that. As you say, it sometimes depends who is asking.

That's how I got into this mess. I asked for it in writing :} I learned long ago not to rely on what I'm told on the phone in a CYA situation. (See Post 83 of this thread.)

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WHAT? Then what the heck is the issue?


The more you post the more it seems like you and the CG are in total disconnect.


I got straight and problem solving answers in 10 minutes.


CDR might have helped...but I didn't use it up front and retired takes a lot out of it anyway.

psneeld said:

Yep...had to testify last fall a couple days before heading to Florida.

And lots of reading on whether insurance companies can deny claims and actually get away with it can almost fill Al Gore's internet.

Sure they can deny...then you sue for coverage...then they realize how weak this argument would be...the boat doesn't even HAVE to be documented....they would probably cover without going past the initial stab.

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We deal with the insurance companies and their defense counsel daily, so fortunately and unfortunately, I've seen first hand how they work.

You are absolutely correct that in the end, the boater will likely prevail.
Now all they have to get past is the months and months of delay, and hell they can be put through, waiting to "win."

I'm not painting all companies with the same broad brush.
Some are stand up, top flight groups that do the right thing from jump

Bottom line is a bunch of us have ignored it,the system seems to ignore it, no one here has ever heard of a real life issue over it, no one except one seems concerned over it....the real answer (the actual law reference or USCG printed interpretation of it) hasn't been found yet or any reference to it....etc...etc..

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And if you continue to have problems with this, then again I suggest engaging the help of someone who does it all the time for a living.

psneeld said:

WHAT? Then what the heck is the issue?

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Exactly!

The more you post the more it seems like you and the CG are in total disconnect.

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There's definitely a disconnect somewhere.

I got straight and problem solving answers in 10 minutes.
CDR might have helped...but I didn't use it up front and retired takes a lot out of it anyway.

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Hey, it never hurts

psneeld said:

Naw...she was way more PC than I am....

But like using the wrong oil, filter or anchor...fearmongering has become a pastime on TF.

Then it turns into entertainment for those that have not much substantial to offer.

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Well other than a derogatory comment or two I didnt have much at all to contribute. So sign me up for the entertainment value.

I still like the irony of someone that spent his time "writing the rules" being upset about getting caught in their snare.

Dang, I thought my answer back on post 11 was definitive on this: If you are asserting you are a documented vessel and you aren't, you can get a heavy fine. So stop asserting you are documented and assert something else - that you can back up and/or that has lesser fines - until you become documented. This is such a nothing-burger of an issue...

Roger Long said:

I'm going to try and get the BoatUS government affairs guy who is following this to do that. As you say, it sometimes depends who is asking.

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Some time ago I asked the BoatUS Government Affairs people if they could try to work on/influence the backlog issue. They expressed no interest. Maybe you will have more success than I did. If ever there were a government problem/policy practice that impacts boaters, this seems to be one.

Off Duty said:

Neeld,

...pet rock....you sure you weren't a cop or a fireman in some life?

OD

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I am a fireman and the missus is a cop so we are not the sharpest knives in the draw. Was that a shot fired across our bow?

kwmeyer13 said:

I am a fireman and the missus is a cop so we are not the sharpest knives in the draw. Was that a shot fired across our bow?

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I doubt it...I'll bet he considers all of you part of the brotherhood too...

At the risk of sounding like - gasp - a certain presidential candidate, what difference does any of this make? What is the point of all this hand-wringing and fretting and the phone calls and the preoccupation with federal regs and compliance and processing delays? Who cares? Fed documentation for recreational boats has become a meaningless exercise, it has almost no bearing on practical reality, or on moving a (state registered) boat from point A to point B, even across international borders.

I'm reminded of the poem "Terrance this is stupid stuff." I'm paying $26 - every year now - for the privilege of not cluttering the look of my hull with state registration numbers. There it is. The End.

twistedtree said:

Some time ago I asked the BoatUS Government Affairs people if they could try to work on/influence the backlog issue. They expressed no interest. Maybe you will have more success than I did. If ever there were a government problem/policy practice that impacts boaters, this seems to be one.

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I have and they are on it. It isn't going to happen fast though. This whole thread is intended to help show that the backlog is causing problems.

A lot of you are not helping with that

I think Documentation is still valid.


I think the USCG should be able to get documentation through faster.


But I don't, and apparently a lot of others, don't see it as a problem to the average rec boater.

psneeld said:

I think Documentation is still valid.

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So do I although I would be tempted to give it up at this point for most of the cruising we plan to do.

However, I am sure Cuba is going to open up for US cruisers fairly soon and I would not burn the documentation bridge until I know what the requirements are going to be for vessels visiting there.

kwmeyer13 said:

I am a fireman and the missus is a cop so we are not the sharpest knives in the draw. Was that a shot fired across our bow?

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Absolutely not!
No warning shots here

psneeld said:

I doubt it...I'll bet he considers all of you part of the brotherhood too...

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Thanks neeld
kwmeyer, he is correct. There was no ill will meant by that statement. His comments sounded like something I'd expect to hear come from a cop or firefighter/paramedic. I sent you a pm.

Roger Long said:

...I am sure Cuba is going to open up for US cruisers fairly soon and I would not burn the documentation bridge until I know what the requirements are going to be for vessels visiting there.

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I hear ya.
Heard somewhere that they were planning on seizing non-doc'd vessels to bolster their new Cuban Navy....Just sayin'...

I had no choice but keep my boat documented - it was still a requirement for my marine mortgage. But as I mentioned before I traveled through Canada and back into the US with only a bill of sale and a copy of the application. I wasn't worried.

Just make the call - you're either worried or not. If you are then get state registration or stay at the dock. If not (like me) then go and enjoy your boat. End of story.

Richard

Cottontop said:

46CFR67.313(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must have on board that vessel the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel.

46CFR67.315(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must produce the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel upon the demand of any person acting in an official public capacity.

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As stated here this has gone way way way (dare I say it?) overboard.

The key to reading the CFR is the words "command of a documented vessel......."

The vessel is NOT yet documented.... Everyone take a deep breath think about a nice place that smells like salt and fish and enjoy. If you are boarded and have a copy of the USCG application and a "travel letter" from the sellers broker you are just fine!

Now, for those still with their panties in a wad, we are at the end of August, we loosing daylight more everyday, CHILL and enjoy the rest of the summer.

Just a note to all, no offense was taken with OD's comment. I figured he was kidding and I thought people would know I was kidding when I put that smiley face thing in with my post. My apologies if I ruffled any feathers.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

As stated here this has gone way way way (dare I say it?) overboard.

The key to reading the CFR is the words "command of a documented vessel......."

The vessel is NOT yet documented.... Everyone take a deep breath think about a nice place that smells like salt and fish and enjoy. If you are boarded and have a copy of the USCG application and a "travel letter" from the sellers broker you are just fine!

Now, for those still with their panties in a wad, we are at the end of August, we loosing daylight more everyday, CHILL and enjoy the rest of the summer.

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Don't think this is the answer. The OP bought a documented boat. I don't think it became "undocumented" by virtue of being sold. But the COD became obsolete because it has the wrong ownership information on it.

More interesting is the phrase "currently in effect." In the OP's case, no such COD exists.

The person I spoke to at the NVDC didn't seem to indicate that or it flat out just doesn't matter if the vessel is only in recreational use without needing to be documented.

I agree with Roger and being legal. I have been waiting since the first week of April. Watched the process dates on the web site. Tried to call many times after it passed my application date and no one answers or returns calls. I emailed several times now and the webmaster has replied the the email has been forwarded to a supervisor for review. I want to run my boat and not just move it. Yep the system is broke.

Run your boat. I'll post your bail when you're arrested by the CG.

I emailed to a different email last night. See what happens