Are we missing something?

Hi all! This is our first post, although we have have been avidly reading the forum since joining. We are just retired and transitioning from decades of sailing to a trawler (at least, that's the plan). We sold our Hylas 46 sailboat in December and have been in the hunt since then. We plan to cruise the Pacific Northwest and Mexico but will be based in Southern California, where we love to cruise the Channel Islands and Catalina.

We have narrowed our focus to Krogens, Nordhavns and perhaps Selene (worried about the latter a bit due to commentary from other boaters). 47 - 53 feet seems like the right size for us. We want the boat to be blue-water capable, as sea-kindly as possible, and to have decent range and fuel economy. We also want an engine room that one can work on without being on one's hands and knees.

BUT, I do worry that we may find all the above too slow after a while (although we never sailed faster than 8 knots), or that we might be missing out on something attractive in the "fast trawler class", i.e. Fleming, Grand Banks, or even Offshore.

Sooo, what I'm asking for is the thoughts of this obviously experienced group on the pros/cons of the Krogen/Nordhavn class vs. the Fleming/Grand Banks class - and feel free to mention ones we have overlooked. Thanks!

Are you talking about new or used boats? If the latter, age and budget?

Used, but newer. Most of what we have been looking at are in the 600 to 900k range. Not looking for a "project". Thanks!

Fleming 55 could give you both range and speed. Great boats.

Our N47 cruises at 7.5kts.

Thanks, Moonstruck! How's the engine room on a F55?

We used to have a Grand Banks 47' that could do 20 kts, and now have a Nordhavn 60 that cruises around 8 kts.

Even going slow in the GB and getting about the same mileage as the N, the GB had significantly less range. It just doesn't have the fuel capacity, and I'm 99% sure the same is true for Fleming. I don't know how much range you want, but I think the planing boars will inevitably have less range, even when run slowly. Run fast, they will have much less range, but I'm assuming you wont be blasting around everywhere you go.

One reason they have less fuel capacity, and it is also reflected in reduced interior space, is that the planing hulls have flatter bottoms and are shallower, resulting in less interior volume. Comparing a Nordhavn 47 with a Grand Banks 47, there is much more interior volume on the N.

MikeQi said:

Thanks, Moonstruck! How's the engine room on a F55?

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Well, that's the compromise. It is under the saloon floor with limited head room.

Thanks, TwistedTree! The N60 is Gorgeous! The Admiral would love a used 55, but it seems too much for a couple. Thoughts?

Moonstruck said:

Well, that's the compromise. It is under the saloon floor with limited head room.

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Again, I completely agree!
The Fleming 55 is my all time favorite!

MikeQi said:

Thanks, TwistedTree! The N60 is Gorgeous! The Admiral would love a used 55, but it seems too much for a couple. Thoughts?

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A good friend of mine runs his 55 w/ his wife with no problems. There was a couple that ran a N76, so if that's possible smaller ones shouldn't be too bad.

If I was cruising those areas, retired, I don't think the slow trawler speed would bother me. I like you also have done a lot of sailing (but trawlerless). If you have a job, and a port to get back too a schedule to keep, sure I can see speed being more important. But when you want to poke around and explore, it seems a little bizarre to come screaming in at 20 knots if you plan to just drop the hook and hang out for a few days.

I dunno...if I was looking at production boats at that price range I'd probably go with the Nordy 47 for blue water but if I absolutely hax to have the speed I'd be looking at a Krogen Express. Good luck finding a real good engine room in a semi-planing hull.

MikeQi said:

Thanks, TwistedTree! The N60 is Gorgeous! The Admiral would love a used 55, but it seems too much for a couple. Thoughts?

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It depends on what you mean by "too much".

I think all the 55s that I'm aware of are run by couples, and my wife and I run our 60 by ourselves. It's not a problem at all in terms of running/operating the boat.

Whether it's too much space, just right, or not enough space is much more subjective. It also hugely depends on how often you have company, as well as how much time you spend on the boat. The longer we are on the boat, and the more we have company, the smaller the boat gets.

MikeQi said:

Thanks, TwistedTree! The N60 is Gorgeous! The Admiral would love a used 55, but it seems too much for a couple. Thoughts?

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If you mean that an N55 is "too much for a couple" as far as handling is concerned I can tell you that a friend of mine single handed his N55 all the time, and these weren't just weekend outings... One of his single handed voyages was from Dana Point, CA down past the Galapagos Islands. He now single hands his new 51' SHM Diesel Duck 462, which he's seems to be very happy with.

If you're saying the N55 is "too much for a couple" as far as overall room and size, I'd agree with you but my philosophy these days is less is more.

Quoting another good friend, Jeff Merrill (Jeff Merrill Yacht Sales) he says "Buy the smallest boat that is big enough for the typical crew size on board and the type of cruising you intend to do."

healhustler said:

...but if I absolutely had to have the speed I'd be looking at a Krogen Express.

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I agree. I love a Krogen Express. I didn't think the engine room was too cramped. In fact, it's more spacious and comfortable than my vee berth. If I was going the slow route, I'd probably want a KK 48 North Sea, or a 52 if there's one in your price range.

I don't recall hearing anything negative about Selenes. Actually, I can't think of many 'trawlers' in this size and price range that would't be great to own. I envy you!

2007 Seahorse Marine Pilothouse Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I shared a bunch of locks with one of these recently. It was a really cool boat. Not sure about the engine room, but it fits the bill in most other ways.

MikeQi said:

The Admiral would love a used 55, but it seems too much for a couple. Thoughts?

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Good friends of mine run an Ocean Alexander 64 by themselves with no problems. Having been on their boat, off the coast, I'd have to change my vote from a Fleming 55 to the OA 64. It's truly a magnificent vessel! (And a super "stand up" ER!)

Encore

If offshore ocean cruising is one of your desires then take Grand Banks off your list. GBs are great coastal and protected inside water boats but they are not, nor were they designed to be, offshore cruisers. There are a whole bunch of reasons for this that have been discussed in the past but the bottom line is that they aren't the kind of boat you want to be in out on the open ocean when the weather starts acting up.

I, too, like the Krogen Express. It can be cruised fast or slow. The only flaw I find (note: this is personal preference) is the passage to the staterooms. The KEs require going up to the pilot house then down to the staterooms. It just seemed unhandy to me. However, because of the flexibility on speed if I were in the market it would be on my short list.

"too much for a couple" to me says they expect to horse the boat around using muscle power. That wont happen and should not happen on any boat. It is the boat drivers responsibility to place the boat where it needs to be for the deck crew to easily do their job. Some ships systems will be larger but there w

A 55' boat IMO certainly does not have too much room for a couple to spend months on.

MikeQi - your requirements sound match almost exactly the equation we're trying to solve as well. Fortunately we've got a couple years to square this particular circle.

Our leading contenders now are the N47 and KK48. With retirement speed shouldn't matter that much - that is the working hypothesis anyway. Selene is also on the list, as are some DeFevers (though still confused about the various DF years/models/lengths produced).

Two primary features draw us to KK and N: First is the ability to handle tough, probably unexpected, conditions. Our cruising grounds will be the East Coast, Nova Scotia to Bermuda to the Bahamas and south. Ideally we'll plan and schedule for good weather, but I'll sleep better knowing that if we or the forecasters screw up we'll be able to handle it.

The second feature is the JD/Lugger engines. I'd strongly prefer having a robust, low-power engine to a twin more-highly-stressed installation. The thought of an M1 engine gets my juices flowing.

We've looked at the Krogen Express and like a lot about it but it seems targeted to a different type of cruising than we want. One example is the power plant: twin 480 Yanmars. Another is the ground tackle set up: A bow roller that can handle only a single anchor. Things like that just suggest the boat is optimized for the ICW or trips in and out of Miami.

There are lots of Flemings on the Chesapeake Bay - one in the slip next to us actually. I don't know a prettier boat in profile. But again it doesn't seem to meet our needs - twin high-HP engines. Don't know how good it would be if accidently caught offshore. (Actually, I'm confused about the Fleming. What IS it designed for? I seem them mostly on day trips on the bay. They have relatively small interiors for the LOA. Are they intended to go offshore? But damn, they're pretty. But I also have a thing for the N62.)

All of this is just opinion formed by armchair analysis. I've probably slandered some good boats and ignored others. But I throw this out there to 'stimulate' the conversation.

jb cruzan said:

If I was cruising those areas, retired, I don't think the slow trawler speed would bother me. I like you also have done a lot of sailing (but trawlerless). If you have a job, and a port to get back too a schedule to keep, sure I can see speed being more important. But when you want to poke around and explore, it seems a little bizarre to come screaming in at 20 knots if you plan to just drop the hook and hang out for a few days.

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A lot of really good comments.

This summer has been an eye opener for me, yet again.

There have been many times I would have loved to go 15 knots instead of 6 or even 5, but the realization dawns that I could not have taken this trip in the comfort and economy that mean so much to me.

So it comes down to how you will really use the boat.

Do you need long range? Are you a fair weather sailor?
Do you mind spending $1,000 on fuel for maybe a weekend jaunt?

How did you use your sailboat? and what will be different now?

Have you considered the Nordic Tug. Great boat, 49' or 54'? Long range, great head room in the engine compartment. Almost 3,000 mile range from 1,300 gallons, but yet will get up in the teens and scoot if necessary.

Nordic Tugs boats for sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk

Thanks all, super helpful. Would love to hear from others as well. This forum rocks!

garyj4101 said:

Have you considered the Nordic Tug. Great boat, 49' or 54'? Long range, great head room in the engine compartment. Almost 3,000 mile range from 1,300 gallons, but yet will get up in the teens and scoot if necessary.

Nordic Tugs boats for sale - www.yachtworld.co.uk

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If it has the range they claim it still has a S/D hull, something i wouldn't want when passage making where you can run into unexpected weather.

I think the answer to your question which I interpret as "Is 8 knots sufficient?" lies in your description of how you intend to use the boat. Eg If you are only on the boat for weekends and wish to explore new places frequently then you won't want to be limited to 8 knots. If you are on the boat for extended timeframes and have the time to get where you want to at 8 knots, you wouldn't need extra speed. Obviously economics and boat design are key factors as well, where horsepower and speed cost upfront and when running and boat design means the boat has to be a good match for the boating you plan to do.

Don't overlook Defever 44 / 49 / 50. Our 50 is easy for two to handle, stand up engine room, great living space, 1,000nm+ range. Used boats are hard to find, but if you can find one it will be in your price range.

If you are cruising on your own, and retired, seven knots is fine.

If you are cruising with other trawlers, seven knots is fine.

If you cruising with a yacht club or other group with faster boats, seven knots can feel like molasses.

With a seven knot cruising speed you will need to time your trips to have the tide and currents with you. Bucking a six knot current with a seven knot cruisers isn't fun! Sometimes this will mean getting up at four or five in the morning when you would rather sleep in.

I don't think you will miss the speed. I went from a large, high horsepower go-fast sportfisher, to my current boat that can cruise at 17 knots (2100 rpm on QSM11's). I was worried that I would not enjoy life in the slow lane. As it turns out, I couldn't be happier. In practice, I rarely exceed 10 knots, and typically make about 8.5 - 8.7. For me, 8 - 10 knots is fast enough to get where you want to go in a reasonable time but much more enjoyable and relaxing than planning.

The Flemings are great boats, but the 55 does not have a stand up engine room. As for fuel capacity, it is somewhat limited, but still sufficient to get you from Alaska to Puerto Villarta without undo inconvenience for fuel stops.