Documentation Dysfunction – Serious Issue for Buyers and Sellers

psneeld said:

Having read the CFRs...where exactly did the NVDC say you were in violation?

I really never saw anything that said you or the rest of us are/were in violation be a use most of our boats do not need to be documented in the first place for USCG purposes.

Click to expand...

46CFR67.313(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must have on board that vessel the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel.

46CFR67.315(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must produce the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel upon the demand of any person acting in an official public capacity.

Cottontop said:

46CFR67.313(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must have on board that vessel the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel.

46CFR67.315(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must produce the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel upon the demand of any person acting in an official public capacity.

Click to expand...

Thank you CT.

I saw that while going over 46CFR, but couldn't locate the section regarding the fine.

OD

So you have one part of the government saying you cannot travel without certain paperwork.

And you have another part of the government responsible for issuing such paperwork, but due to their own issues, will not issue such paperwork.

So the correct thing to do is stop the vessel at the dock and wait. Months.

And we elected these people.

Ski in NC said:

So you have one part of the government saying you cannot travel without certain paperwork.

And you have another part of the government responsible for issuing such paperwork, but due to their own issues, will not issue such paperwork.

So the correct thing to do is stop the vessel at the dock and wait. Months.

And we elected these people.

Click to expand...

...yeah, now you got it!
Unfreaking believable ain't it!?

Night ya'll...

OD

Calm. All breathe deeply.

I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble in the US while waiting on their documentation. Now I have heard of those who hadn't property registered their boat.

As to a violation of the law, you would win that case 99.9% of the time. The law provides an impractical and unenforceable rule as evidenced by no new purchasers being able to comply. No judge or jury would ever convict, which is another reason the USCG will not try to enforce. They are returning now to temporary permits.

If you're really concerned then you can always do a priority request.

If leaving the country, you should always do a priority request. Those in other countries won't understand your reasons. However, there are exceptions to that. If I had a boat registered I wouldn't hesitate to take it to the Bahamas while waiting. They are use to non-documented US vessels coming with their state registration.

I still don't see where if a recreational vessel...which is NOT required to be documented by law....if the documentation lapses that you are in violation of anything.

There might be some wording buried someplace...but nothing posted or linked makes it clear in my mind.

I guess if it was clear when is a vessel no longer documented....which is what? When it expires or when something is filed? Or both?

It may not be clear in anyone's mind...including the operational types and that's why they never push it.

The only glitch I see is if a lender has a preferred mortgage on you and you are required to keep the vessel documented till satisfied.

If it were a big deal or even the law...I would think every documentation service would have a big warning sticker on their fancy little document pouches.

Cottontop said:

46CFR67.313(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must have on board that vessel the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel.

46CFR67.315(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must produce the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel upon the demand of any person acting in an official public capacity.

Click to expand...

But if the document has not been issued yet from the NVDC, only applied for, do you have a documented vessel?

I have seen many regs like this through my USCG career that were catch 22s. The preferred mortgage thing is what probably has drug recreational vessels along with all the boats that HAVE to be documented....now everyone in the system thinks and treats recreational boats the same.

Even directors of centers and Lawyers are totally convinced till you make them point out the specific wording. They stumble around for a bit....can't find the law with any teeth in it...so they go back to generic sayings like "you are required to have it with you at all times" and then tell you that is "their" interpretation and that makes it administratively OK.

Well....they have that option...till they think twice about actually trying to enforce it.

Otherwise...this is not new...this question probably has been asked before and yet isn't specifically on the FAQ page.....I can only wonder why....

Though I would love to know for sure...I just can't find anything definite yet.

psneeld said:

I still don't see where if a recreational vessel...which is NOT required to be documented by law....if the documentation lapses that you are in violation of anything.

Click to expand...

This is an important point. When you fail to renew your documentation, it does not lapse and the vessel does not go out of documentation, you simply are in violation of the agreement you made when you received Federal documentation. You can be required to pay for documentation violations.

This whole issue came up for me when I asked the NVDC about a procedural side issue. The NVDC lawyer could have written back that, as soon as my COD became invalid because of the sale and my application for exchange of documentation, my vessel was no longer documented and operation was between me and the state whose waters the vessel was in. She didn't say that. Instead, she wrote very clearly that my vessel was still considered to be in documentation but, if I operated it, I would be in violation of the provisions and responsibilities of documentation. This would be true even if I was also state registered. When I spoke to the chief of enforcement in the district about how to legally move the boat, he called the NVDC and got the same answer. That fellow did confirm that, in the case of a state registered only vessel, you are permitted to operate for up to 60 days with the bill of sale. I believe somewhere in the USCG, possibly at the NVDC to increase pressure for increase funding, someone is taking a hard line towards extending this quite reasonable provision formally to documented vessels.

Removing a boat from documentation is an affirmative act and paper chase that required just as much, or more, action on the part of the NVDC than simply changing the owner's name and issuing a new document. If I were trying to surrender my documentation as countless posters have suggested above, I doubt they would have found or looked at that application yet either. I would then have to grind off the hull numbers and reinstating documentation would be an even longer and more involved paper chase.

Documentation carries other risks. Did you know that, in time of war or other emergency, the government can seize your documented vessel and put it into national service? This happened to lots of large yachts in WW I and II. They had guns bolted on their decks and were sent out to look for German subs off the coast. I think it pretty unlikely that my boat will be sent out to patrol for ISIS suicide craft but, legally, it could happen.

Larry M said:

But if the document has not been issued yet from the NVDC, only applied for, do you have a documented vessel?

Click to expand...

If the vessel was not previously documented and you are waiting for a first time COD, the answer is "No".

If the vessel had an COD that had become invalid either due to lack of renewal or signing of a bill of sale, then the answer is "Yes", it is a documented vessel. However, if operated, it is doing so in a technical violation for which they could (however unlikely it may be in the real world) fine the operator significantly.

This all looks different to me having spent a career in two different regulated transportation industries. I have seen people fined and put through nightmares that were rationally a lot less likely to have happened than what we are talking about here. If anyone wants some good sea stories, let me know.

Roger Long said:

This is an important point. When you fail to renew your documentation, it does not lapse and the vessel does not go out of documentation, you simply are in violation of the agreement you made when you received Federal documentation. You can be required to pay for documentation

Edited for space.........

Documentation carries other risks. Did you know that, in time of war or other emergency, the government can seize your documented vessel and put it into national service? This happened to lots of large yachts in WW I and II. They had guns bolted on their decks and were sent out to look for German subs off the coast. I think it pretty unlikely that my boat will be sent out to patrol for ISIS suicide craft but, legally, it could happen.

Click to expand...

Yes I know all the trivia...

And I stand by my posts...show me the money.....I would ask the lawyers what law I am violating. The COD is invalid at the time of sale...yes...but the new owner is not required to document unless by prefered mortgage...etc as I posted before. But if no preferred, and the paperwork was legally signed and submitted without application.....how does that make you illegal to operate your new boat?

I think there is a big misunderstanding here with the lawyer...as usual in my experience.

This is where I got tired of tracking down minutia...if you want to show me where it's against the law...fine..but I don't buy that it is....

CFR Title 46 S hipping
Subpart L—Validity of Certificates
of Documentation; Renewal of
Endorsement; Requirement for
Exchange, Replacement, De-
letion, Cancellation
§ 67.161 Validity of Certificate of Docu-
mentation.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provi-
sion of this subpart, except as provided
in paragraph (b) of this section, a Cer-
tificate of Documentation but no trade
endorsement thereon, issued to a vessel
which is the subject of an outstanding
mortgage filed or recorded in accord-
ance with subpart Q of this part or any
predecessor regulations, remains valid
for purposes of:
(1) 46 U.S.C. chapter 125;
(2) 46 U.S.C. chapter 313 for an instru-
ment filed or recorded before the date
of invalidation, and an assignment or a
notice of claim of lien filed after that
date;
(3) Sections 9 and 37(b) of the Ship-
ping Act, 1916 (46 U.S.C. app. 808,
835(b)); and
(4) Section 902 of the Merchant Ma-
rine Act, 1936 (46 U.S.C. app. 1242).

All my COD says is when I sell my boat, I have to surrender the COD.

The COD is now invalid as far as I know.

The new owner whether a new COD is applied for or not has no obligation I believe to tell a boarding officer that the vessel was or will be documented. Now, the boarding officer will ask for documentation (which you don't have) or state registration. I suppose you are technically supposed to have one or the other.

Usually good to have a copy of the back of the previous owners COD that is signed and a CG1340 Bill of Sale.

Why doesn't the bill of sale say something on it like "Use of vessel is prohibited until new COD is received...even if you aren't going to apply for one"

Many of us dont...we just rely on a bill of sale....but at that point...I stil, don't think the USCG can do squat about a new boat to you....other than say prove it's your boat (which state registration would do).

In fact...there isnt anything I can find that requires a seller to even tell a buyer they are buying a previously documented vessel...so what's a new owner to do?

And until you as the new owner receive a NEW ....COD....I can find no regulation saying that you have to tie up your vessel until approved.

As I posted before...I think that lawyer was not fully explaining reality....probably caught up in speak that is normally used for vessels that HAVE to be documented....

Upon further reading I see the catch 22.... I guess you are supposed to wait until either your new COD arrives...or the good natured previous owner takes his boat out of Documentation status all legal and like....good luck making that happen..and good luck to the USCG trying to enforce dysfunctional documentation rules.

Like I said though..you could by a boat and not even know you were breaking the rules unless the owner has you sign a CG1340 ....

Cottontop said:

46CFR67.313(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must have on board that vessel the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel.

46CFR67.315(a) The person in command of a documented vessel must produce the original Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel upon the demand of any person acting in an official public capacity.

Click to expand...

I think the loop hole here is "...Certificate of Documentation currently in effect for that vessel....."

During the processing period, there is no certificate of documentation that is currently in effect. The old one expires when the boat changes hands, and the USCG has yet to issued a new one. I would never argue this with an inspecting officer (and never expect that I would need to), but if I ended up arguing a fine or such thing I think this is the angle I'd use.

Where the violation probably exists is with state law since if you are not Documented, you need to be state registered with bow numbers. Or maybe that's a federal regulation as well.....?

As soon as you sell a documented boat, it is automatically removed from documentation. I found this out the hard way. The new owner needs to apply to put it back in.

And, no, there is nothing that says you need to put it back into documentation. But if you don't, you need to state register and get bow numbers. And you would also be wise to get a state title so you can subsequently sell the boat in the future.

twistedtree said:

As soon as you sell a documented boat, it is automatically removed from documentation. I found this out the hard way. The new owner needs to apply to put it back in.

And, no, there is nothing that says you need to put it back into documentation. But if you don't, you need to state register and get bow numbers. And you would also be wise to get a state title so you can subsequently sell the boat in the future.

Click to expand...

Not sure how the USCG knows until they receive and process any of the sellers paperwork though.....what happened to clue you in to their process?


Good point about getting a state title if not going to document...and if your boat was...I'm not sure there is one to sign over to the new owner.

Also...read awhile back that states cant issue a legal title to your boat if it is documented (NJ issues some dummy one for the paperwork process and retains it in Trenton). Can never find the NVDC note that they sent out about it but just found this that makes me think I'm not dreaming up the no-title thing....

State Title or Documented Vessel? | | PassageMaker

A recreational vessel which is documented has a certificate of admeasurement stating that the vessel is of at least 5 net tons, U.S. citizens own at least 51% of the vessel, it has a marking certificate (hull number), and the owners have filed an application for a Document with the Coast Guard. Under federal law, a documented vessel may not have a state certificate of title, but can (and often must) be registered in the state in which it is primarily used.

twistedtree said:

Where the violation probably exists is with state law since if you are not Documented, you need to be state registered with bow numbers. Or maybe that's a federal regulation as well.....?

Click to expand...

That is where you could potentially have your small issue, with a state enforcement officer checking you. Now, in most states you'd still have your sticker, just not your numbers and he'd fully understand why. You'd be legally registered, so question answered.

Interesting exchange from my old hangout (sailboatowners.com):

I agree Roger, there has got to be a legit and better way to get it done, my sister in law (ret. USCG) explained that if boarded your in violation but that isn't really what there're looking for... however if you are involved in an incident that is where paperwork will have to be in order and up to date. Insurance will reject claims if the dates aren't correct on the doc paperwork. Insurance companies will look for any way possible not to pay a claim. If crossing boarders then the customs officer might get pissy cause your paperwork isn't correct.

Click to expand...

This is the way it was when I was in aviation and I doubt it has changed. Civil aviation was basically regulated by the insurance industry. It was sort of stealth privatization that may becoming to the water.

I have read my yacht insurance policy..and I don't believe it even discusses whether the boat is documented or not.... so how would they deny a claim over a non-fraudulent paperwork snafu?


Insurance brokers/experts...opinions????.

...Civil aviation was basically regulated by the insurance industry. It was sort of stealth privatization that may becoming to the water...

Click to expand...

Already here.
The insurance industry controls most things in our lives, from autos to boats, to hobbies. Huge lobbies and a hell of a lot of money (ours) to throw@ their agendas.

OD

Roger Long said:

This whole issue came up for me when I asked the NVDC about a procedural side issue. The NVDC lawyer could have written back that, as soon as my COD became invalid because of the sale and my application for exchange of documentation, my vessel was no longer documented and operation was between me and the state whose waters the vessel was in. She didn't say that. Instead, she wrote very clearly that my vessel was still considered to be in documentation but, if I operated it, I would be in violation of the provisions and responsibilities of documentation. This would be true even if I was also state registered. When I spoke to the chief of enforcement in the district about how to legally move the boat, he called the NVDC and got the same answer. That fellow did confirm that, in the case of a state registered only vessel, you are permitted to operate for up to 60 days with the bill of sale. I believe somewhere in the USCG, possibly at the NVDC to increase pressure for increase funding, someone is taking a hard line towards extending this quite reasonable provision formally to documented vessels.

Click to expand...

That's one lawyers interpretation, but occasionally lawyers disagree. That's why we have courts. Remember, the lawyer doesn't make the law, they just interpret it. And they will interpret it in a way most favorable to their client.

We are way off in the weeds of improbability here, but I admit the discussion is interesting.

It's been my experience that when you ask someone in any authority if you can do X, they will tell you No. Why? Because they are least likely to get in trouble by saying No. If they say Yes, then they will get dragged into the drama if you subsequently get in trouble. To say Yes, someone needs to think, apply judgement, take a position, and then stand behind that position - all characteristics that are in short supply.

psneeld said:

I have read my yacht insurance policy..and I don't believe it even discusses whether the boat is documented or not.... so how would they deny a claim over a non-fraudulent paperwork snafu?


Insurance brokers/experts...opinions????.

Click to expand...

Ever been involved in an incident related insurance dispute?

Off Duty said:

Ever been involved in an incident related insurance dispute?

Click to expand...

Yep...had to testify last fall a couple days before heading to Florida.

And lots of reading on whether insurance companies can deny claims and actually get away with it can almost fill Al Gore's internet.

Sure they can deny...then you sue for coverage...then they realize how weak this argument would be...the boat doesn't even HAVE to be documented....they would probably cover without going past the initial stab.

I think Twistedtree is a retired attorney...I'll bow part way to his thoughts.


This thread is like any other thread where something was heard or read that makes no sense, some info brought in from a couple people at the end of the phone who may or may not have the correct question/let alone answer....


Bottom line is a bunch of us have ignored it,the system seems to ignore it, no one here has ever heard of a real life issue over it, no one except one seems concerned over it....the real answer (the actual law reference or USCG printed interpretation of it) hasn't been found yet or any reference to it....etc...etc..


I think I'll let this one rest till USCG HQ, my attorney and insurance agent have answered my questions.

Perhaps it would be helpful for you all to see the original email exchange so you can judge for yourselves. I'll be the first to admit that the opinion I received very well could be proven wrong by people farther up the food chain or by expensive action by a smart lawyer. It can be surprising how often the first person who will respond to a question in an agency will be wrong.

However, if you get boarded by an officer who isn't sure and makes a radio call which results in a phone call, while you are all out there standing in the sun rafted together, this will probably be the answer that comes back. After that, you do the math.

You must have the original Certificate of Documentation (COD) or Temporary Certificate of Documentation (TCOD) on board the vessel when operating the vessel. If boarded, you are subject to fines and penalties. The final decision is up to the boarding officer.

Once the paperwork is received the current COD becomes invalid.

Once the COD is issued the vessel name and hailing port stated on the COD must match what is marked on the vessel.

Any further requests must be sent to: NVDC.W.Webmaster@uscg.mil

Our guidance/advice is predicated only upon the information as submitted. If that information proves imprecise or incorrect or changes materially, our guidance/advice may change. We provide definitive guidance relative to vessel documentation only upon the presentation of materials in accordance with the regulations found in 46 CFR Subpart 67.

Barbara A. Dodson
Paralegal Specialist
USCG/National Vessel Documentation Center
1-800-799-8362
You can complain because roses have thorns or you can rejoice because thorns have roses.--Zig Ziglar

Please visit USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Home Page for the most recent vessel documentation information, forms, instructions and to subscribe to our list service.


-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Long [mailto:roger@cruisingonstrider.us]
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2015 8:39 AM
To: Webmaster, NVDC W
Subject: Documentation Inquiry

Webmaster, please forward this email to the appropriate officer since your site no longer lists an email address for inquiries.

We have just purchased a documented vessel and will be filing for an exchange of documentation next week which will include a change of name and hailing port.

The broker told us that the NVDC is running “weeks to months” behind in issuing COD’s or even TCOD’s and that we should simply carry a copy of the existing COD and a copy of our application aboard the vessel to show a boarding officer until we receive our final document.

Was this advice accurate?

We need to plan for work to be done to the topsides of the vessel so it would be helpful to know the proper time to change the vessel’s markings.

May we change the vessel’s name and hailing port immediately according to the exchange application or do we need to wait until the NVDC has processed the paperwork and issued either a TCOD or COD?

Thank you,
Roger Long

Click to expand...

Use of the word recreational or voluntary may have changed the answer....looks pretty stock for a vessel that HAS to be documented commercial reasons.


Wearing the uniform for 23 years helps me think like a bureaucrat to fill in THEIR sometimes overlooked blanks....

psneeld said:

Use of the word recreational or voluntary may have changed the answer....

Click to expand...

Well, that is an excellent point. I should have made that clear in my first email.

However, when I talked to the fellow in the local district I know I was very clear to him that this was a recreational vessel because I described our whole situation. He said he would make a phone call and get back to me. He did and the answer was exactly the same.

As I'm sure you know, they operate a lot on precedent, just like the rest of the legal system. This is actually a relatively new situation since the NVDC used to function very well. It's possible that the case on the ground that will set the precedent just hasn't come up yet. If my conversation with the district guy had been taking place in a boarding on the water, or if he had been fielding a radio call from a JG seeking guidance, the rest of the events would almost certainly have been determined by what I was told in both the email and on the phone. I wouldn't expect otherwise from a responsible and professional USCG boarding officer.

This discussion has been pretty amusing to me. We've had at least two other extensive threads on this topic over the past year, and I was initially interested because last October we bought our first documented boat and it took about 8 months to have the bill of sale processed and the new documentation issued. A number of us in that previous thread noted that federal documentation, at least for recreational boats, has really become just a way to give your boat a little more nautical chache', make it a little saltier, but it's really become practically meaningless, and maybe more of a hassle than it's worth.

My bank doesn't even know or understand what federal boat documentation is, and I'm sure they don't care (granted, Midwestern bank), they just care about a state title and that they're listed as lienholder. Our water cops (Game Fish & Parks) don't know what fed documentation is, or means. (I am a liitle surprised we havent been ticketed for no state registration numbers on the hull, but I bet that will happen eventually.) Ditto with my insurance company (State Farm), even after paying a small claim when we were operating the boat in Massachusetts. The media certainly doesn't care, probably because boaters are the evil rich, even though this situation is such rank gov't incompetency that if I were a reporter I'd still do a juicy story on it. Finally, we haven't taken the boat across an international border yet, but I have yet to hear at least in North America that any country's customs officers won't accept state registration just as readily as fed documentation, or that they'll sweat the fed documentation mess. I do remember that dust-up in Mexico last year where they were impounding boats over permit and documentation issues, but most of what I read was that state reg docs were sufficient.

It just seems this embarrassing, Kafka-esque, Soviet-bureaucracy, third-world- country, utterly incompetent mess with fed boat documentation doesn't really matter. Oh, but don't forget to send in your new $26 annual renewal fee that was supposed magically correct all of this.

kthoennes said:

A number of us in that previous thread noted that federal documentation, at least for recreational boats, has really become just a way to give your boat a little more nautical chache', make it a little saltier, but it's really become practically meaningless, and maybe more of a hassle than it's worth.

Click to expand...

I've given thought to this as well. The big plus to Documenting my sailboat when I got it was that it was "free" to renew. Now that it costs $26 a year, and has to be renewed every year, and that I never plan on international travel. . .if I buy another boat, I'm not sure I would document it.

In Virginia at least, you pay sales tax regardless. . .titling costs $7, and registration is $45 for a 40'+ boat and is good for 3 years. Documenting costs $85 or $120 up front, then $26 a year to renew. . .only plus to Documenting I can see is not having stickers on the bow Also that I can get a temp registration faxed to me in a couple of hours the day of submitting the paper work.

Am I missing something?

cool beans said:

Am I missing something?

Click to expand...

That's it, I don't think you're missing anything at all. Some people even cite the value of a clear chain of ownership with federal documentation. Nonsense, it doesn't even provide that anymore. Our doc transfer when we purchased our boat still showed an outstanding lien (mortgage in federal terms) by the previous owner that he had paid off in 2012, filed the satisfaction in 2013, but they never removed it. We financed our boat, insured it, state titled it, registered it, got a new mmsi number, and got all the FCC licenses we needed all while the fed registry showed the wrong owner and a lien that had been satisfied two years before. For recreational boats, in my opinion fed documentation and the registry is pretty much meaningless.

The latest from the NVDC:

I just managed to get a very harried sounding woman on the phone at NVDC.

She said I should have received an immediate automated receipt to the email filing I made Friday. If I didn’t, which I did not, then “something isn’t working right in the system”. It sounds therefore, that my Friday re-submission was bounced into the phantom zone.

I mentioned my email to the webmaster asking for live receipt confirmation and she said they are presently reading the emails from 13 August. I infer therefore, that no one will even check to see if my submission went into the system until about 4 September.

I asked what the current backlog and timeline was for TCOD’S and she said they are currently making no promises or giving out any timelines on TCOD or COD deliveries. I said this is a problem because I can’t move the boat until I get a certificate. She said, “That’s right.”

I asked, “Are we talking weeks or months here?”

She said, “I can’t say.”

I'll bet THIS is the latest....


Spoke to Anita working at the NVDC at 1130 this morning. Not harried at all when I kindly explained the dilemma we are having here.


She said it is common to give the advice that you are supposed to wait for your COD to show up because it is mainly about vessels that NEED to be documented and dealing with the public that can be no brighter than a pet rock. Typical CYA because otherwise the Government gets sued by idiots.


She said that if you are STATE registered and pending documentation...there is no law that you are violating while operating your vessel and that a boarding officer (like I posted) will be more than satisfied with the minimal documentation of sale and state registration. Which confirms some of our suspicions and certainly the actions of field operatives.


Knowing the right questions to ask always helps.


Hope this puts the silly fearmongering of $10,000 fines to bed.


If not, please call for yourself, ask for Anita and tell her that you are following up on CDR Neeld's conversation of 1130, 24 Aug 2015 concerning transfer of ownersip.


I know this may not satisfy some as I am just a keyboard in the universe as has been pointed out in the past...although me and most of my resume is easily found in google......but it was my career, my blood for 23 years and I dislike crap thrown the way of the USCG when unnecessary.


Thank you to all others that have applied common sense to this thread...it make TF a much more valuable tool.