Old Engine for New Trawler

Rustybarge said:

Just a few thoughts.

The same sort of regs apply to home built aircraft, and many people employed a separate company to 'home build' their plane for them.So the government inspection dept insisted on photo evidence that the registered owner was participating on the actual assembly.
...
Maybe an option; employ some of the boatyard staff to build your boat ' privately' with your on site participation.

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I suspect one could do this an be legal up to a point. I do not see anything in the EPA regulations that would prohibit this at all. The closest regulation might be around 50% build requirement. One could certainly get the hull built by a yard and then do the interior. The hull on a metal boat is a small part of the work effort and cost so I don't think the EPA would care. Certainly one could contract out other work on the boat.

The problem with a home built is that one is looking at a good 5-10 years to do a build.

Later,
Dan

dannc said:

I suspect one could do this an be legal up to a point. I do not see anything in the EPA regulations that would prohibit this at all. The closest regulation might be around 50% build requirement. One could certainly get the hull built by a yard and then do the interior. The hull on a metal boat is a small part of the work effort and cost so I don't think the EPA would care. Certainly one could contract out other work on the boat.

The problem with a home built is that one is looking at a good 5-10 years to do a build.

Later,
Dan

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I built a 60' steel barge in 2 summers with some help on the underwater section welding.

My idea would be for you to just get the hull/engine installation done under the homebuilt regs, get approval and launch .....then give the fit out to a professional yard.

The inspectors would expect a home built to be launched as a bare hull/ engine, with the interior fitted out as money became available.

So if you comply with the inspection phase and get approval, then you can let loose with the pro's ......

Most steel hulls are about €1k per foot fabricated, so you can estimate the hours by dividing by the trade hourly rate plus 50% for margin approx. You ( part time) and two pro's ( full time)could build a big hull in 6 months....

Here's some prices for hull/deck from Holland, click on PDF price list button to download.

https://www.bonitoboats.eu/products/hull___deck.html

Doesn't Mitsubisshi have mechanical, tier 3 compliant engines? I don't know if they have anything in your desired size, worth checking.
FPT (Iveco) had some on the shelf mechanical engines in stock that are tier 2 and can be used in new builds because they are in stock and were manufactured prior to tier 3 regs.

Rustybarge said:

Here's some prices for hull/deck from Holland, click on PDF price list button to download.

https://www.bonitoboats.eu/products/hull___deck.html

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Thank you.

I added that link to my boating spreadsheet.

When we first started planning getting a boat, we thought about a home build but I quickly decided against that for a variety of reasons. I still think we won't build, BUT, due to our situation, a home build might actually work. The idea has always appealed to me and my dad bought plans to build a sail boat in the back yard so this is all his fault! He still has the plans but he bought a used boat instead of building. We have a variety of plans on how to do what we wish to do, so who knows which one will work out.

Later,
Dan

Taken to the extreme, it's not very difficult to just document (on paper) with the USGC a homebuilt boat then go out and have a shipyard build you one and just stick your own Builders' Tag on it. Easy as pie.

However what does this do to resale?

Remember the old saying about being penny wise and pound foolish.

Pack Mule said:

Most of the lumber guys around here buy the glider kits . We had one come in today, brand new Peterbilt day cab with a factory rebuild Detroit . Nice new truck without all the epa stuff.

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Glider up here had the rules changed. Now come without 2 majors of 3.
ie: rear-end and transmission but include the engine.
However weren't available for a 5-ton truck.

Ted

Some one posted a listing of a 1973 27' Saga that had undergone a 3 year retrofit. It was on Yachtworld and they put a new 43Hp Beta (Kubota) engine in it and had a picture of the emission control label on it. It was Tier 4.

dannc said:

I I think at cruising speeds, the Tier III was burning about 15% more fuel. Even at today's low fuel prices that is an expensive 15%. Or to look at this from a different perspective, one would have a 15% greater range with a Tier II engine vs Tier III.
Dan

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So if tier III is 15% cleaner the II, but burns 15% more fuel for given HP, are we really getting anywhere? Or is this a typical government joke on us all, like ethanol.

Brooksie said:

So if tier III is 15% cleaner the II, but burns 15% more fuel for given HP, are we really getting anywhere? Or is this a typical government joke on us all, like ethanol.

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I have no idea on the emissions but I have asked myself the same question. One worry I have is will there still be Tier III engines after Tier IV has been in place for a few years? Are the differences between Tier III and IV minimal so that the engine companies can still provide both engine types? Seems like the marine market is pretty small and will the engine companies be able to provide both tiers?

Flip side is that how much pollution is really caused by these engines in the first place? The same organization that came up with these regulations also had sick people sitting in a booth breathing direct diesel emission from a 7.3 diesel. They said the tests were safe but if so, why do we need these new engines? If the emissions are NOT safe, then how come the researchers and EPA regulators are not in prison?

Later,
Dan

A couple of points:

I think the tiers are divided into engine size or HP ratings, so little engines can meet 3 or 4 and still be mechanical. Such as genset and small tractor engines. New little engines certainly are available right now without CR injection.

And yes, I think the diesel emissions stuff has gone way overboard. I could see in cities having tight limits on busses and delivery trucks, that will make a big difference on city air quality.

But pleasure boat engines?? The amount of use is minimal anyway, and even more minimal in cities.

Tugboats in cities, ferries in cities, ok tighten emissions there.

In my small city, the city busses are old and literally puke black smoke on each accel. The bus authority keeps these on the road as the new emission controlled busses are too expensive, and other cities find them unreliable.

And to reduce NOx, they use later injection timing which reduces efficiency AND increases CO2!! And causes more fuel to be shipped!!! With more emissions!!!

And the complex systems to meet emissions fail, so other vehicles and industries must respond, and that results in.... More emissions!!!

It seems to me that no one in the govt is looking at the big picture and using that to develop practical policy.

Frustrating.

And one day of volcano activity equals all the pollution of millions of non-tier engines.

I am going to give my Perkins 4-236 a big hug this morning for being a "Non"-tier engine.

Al-Ketchikan

Sailor of Fortune said:

Doesn't Mitsubisshi have mechanical, tier 3 compliant engines? I don't know if they have anything in your desired size, worth checking.

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From another thread that pretty much mirrors this one:

Google: 2014 Model Year Marine CI Engine Certification Data or go here:

http://tinyurl.com/netxe3u "There is an XLS file that lists everything you want to know and probably a lot more."

Al said:

And one day of volcano activity equals all the pollution of millions of non-tier engines.



I am going to give my Perkins 4-236 a big hug this morning for being a "Non"-tier engine.



Al-Ketchikan

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Al- don't forget Christmas is on the way soon. Be sure to wrap that sweet girl up something nice and put under the tree!


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

I also wonder how much of the carbon pollution is scrubbed out of the exhaust with water injection vs when a motor is tested and does not have watercooled exhaust?.

Got to love the idiots in govt. That require a 15% reduction in pollution that makes a motor use 15% more fuel
Hollywood

"Got to love the idiots in govt. That require a 15% reduction in pollution that makes a motor use 15% more fuel"

Trucks that operate on I-95 have a cleaner exhaust than what is sucked in the intake.

That 15% fuel penalty is passed on with every item delivered by truck.

HOLLYWOOD the bottom line in this regard is a reduction in pollution ....
Not the amount of fuel burned.

We calculated power curves. Our SISU tier 3 should be running at 80% power at 1500 rpm at our desired cruise speed.

Should be a happy engine, not underloaded, with still abit of reserve power.

Starting to Piss Off the EPA

I think everyone over in EPA is starting to hate me. I'm still trying to find an exemption in order to install a nice, civilized mechanical engine instead of the required Tier III.

It seriously doesn't look possible at this point, so I give up trying. So the choices are either comply or have to document offshore, which would be a real PITA in the long run when bringing the boat back to America.

Oh well, can't win them all.

"You are comfortable with 1939 technology, will the next buyer be? How much will you save as a total percentage of your cost to build."

Actually its 1936 tech,

Engine parts costs can get insane with "modern" engines , just ask any Volvo owner his luck at obtaining almost anything but a filter. And cost !!! also insane .

"1) Am I being overly concerned about the reliability of today's modern high-techies?"

According to Pro boat builder he required clean fuel will be the Big problem .

Keel cooled , dry stack , if the boat is properly built with removal hatches , the new engine can be installed overnight.

Its not available in Euroland or the USA today and complex multiple filtering is required.

Or an Alfa Laval centrifugal setup.

Steel hull should help in a nearby lightning strike to keep the transistors happy.

If the boat is large enough you might consider a surplus landing craft tranny.

These allow 2 engines to power the main shaft , one or both.

Build it with a modern tier whatever engine sized for LRC to be efficient with a nice heavy load.Could also be a gen set in port.

Install the second more reliable engine after the vessel is inspected.

makobuilders said:

I think everyone over in EPA is starting to hate me. I'm still trying to find an exemption in order to install a nice, civilized mechanical engine instead of the required Tier III.

It seriously doesn't look possible at this point, so I give up trying. So the choices are either comply or have to document offshore, which would be a real PITA in the long run when bringing the boat back to America.

Oh well, can't win them all.

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The only exemption I could find is that you can use whatever engine you want.....

As long as you build the boat yourself.

I recently read an article about overseas documentation which was interesting. Unfortunately, I can remember nor find what I read.

Having said that, looking on Noonsite at the US requirements for non US flag vessels makes me wonder why anyone visits the US by boat. Whenever I read the entrance requirements for a country and think what a PITA, I then go read the US requirements would puts things in perspective.

Later,
Dan

Just read the Noonsite description for the USA. I couldn't imagine having to "report in" when traveling from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale. Was it this bad prior to 9/11?

I've traveled (by car) all over Lebanon and Syria and it wasn't this bad! It's a sad state of affairs for America, and I've always commented to family that there are more armed police present at American airports than any other I've ever visited in the world (40-50 easily).

So, who really won the "war on terror?"

dannc said:

The only exemption I could find is that you can use whatever engine you want..... As long as you build the boat yourself.

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I couldn't get a straight answer from EPA, but what I got out of our conversation is that the above exemption applies if you homebuilt in America. If you "homebuilt" outside America then you are still "importing" an engine to the USA and that imported engine must be EPA compliant.

Once again, it wasn't totally clear and doubt they get a lot of cases like this. Tough to fight the system!

makobuilders said:

So, who really won the "war on terror?"

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The law enforcement establishment.

"Got to love the idiots in govt. That require a 15% reduction in pollution that makes a motor use 15% more fuel
Hollywood"

I have kept track of mileage burning regular gas as recommended in the owner's manual, v premium gas (way less ethanol). for a price increase per gallon of under 10% my mileage goes up by more than 10% for a net saving. Thus proving Hollywood's point.
I am sure the same thing would apply to diesel with and without bio added.

makobuilders said:

I couldn't get a straight answer from EPA, but what I got out of our conversation is that the above exemption applies if you homebuilt in America. If you "homebuilt" outside America then you are still "importing" an engine to the USA and that imported engine must be EPA compliant.

Once again, it wasn't totally clear and doubt they get a lot of cases like this. Tough to fight the system!

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Yep, I think you have to home build in the US otherwise you are importing. Frankly, I am surprised they have this exemption. There can't be that many people building boats in the backyard anymore so allowing a non Tiered engine really does not matter. But given that not many people take on the huge undertaking of building their own boat I am surprised they allow non Tiered engines because it makes sense to have the exception.

Later,
Dan

From a Practical point of view

What exactly would be the scrutiny of a US flagged vessel when entering the States for the first time? My vessel, being built overseas but US flagged, will most likely not enter the US for several years, unlike a newly built boat being shipped on a freighter.

In the past when I entered into the US I never had the EPA show up and question my engine. Nowadays with the SVRS it is even more unlikely.

So from a practical point of view, who's gunna enforce the Tier requirement for a single boat, several years old, sailing back to port in America?

That has been my thinking too. A one-off boat brought in by it's owner is not likely on the regulator's radar. Nor should it be. I think you should be ok putting in any engine you want.

Ski in NC said:

That has been my thinking too. A one-off boat brought in by it's owner is not likely on the regulator's radar. Nor should it be. I think you should be ok putting in any engine you want.

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So that raises the next question... what would be better - a Jimmy 6-71 or a Cumming 6BT?

That question is not going to start any fights now, is it?????

I'd go with a Cummins 6CTA 8.3 at a modest rating. I think it is rated continuous around 250hp. From your other threads you are looking at 140hp at cruise, that is right at this engines sweet spot, probably 1500rpm.

I saw your posts in boatdiesel, we talked about 140hp being a bit much for a 6BT or 6BTA in trawler service. It can do it, but that blocks sweet spot is around 100hp.

I have the 6CTA in my sled, but it is a planing hull and so I got the 450hp version. It has been rock solid, and I cruise at about 250hp.

Amongst gear heads it is one of the best marine diesels out there. Same sort of reputation as the 6-71 and Cat 3208. I picked it due to its reputation.