Small Surges in RPM Every Few Minutes.

When I modified my filtration system I would have gone with a spin on filter...however I already owned the Racor 900.

Are the spin-on cartridges readily available?

GonzoF1 wrote:Are the spin-on cartridges readily available?

Click to expand...

Everywhere filters are sold. Those magic filter heads and brackets are available from any hydraulic supply house for about $75 tops. Add a couple of hardware store fittings and gauges and the*money you save*will be enough to buy filter elements*for the rest of your life.



*

Link(s)? Pretty please?

What is the thread size of the filters?

(Should you use thread tape on fuel fittings? It looks like it in Leonard's pic.)

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 09:02:53 AM

"Tony says that if you put a 30 in the first one and a 10 in the second one you will never have to change the one on the engine again. "

I agree a lot with Tony Athen's writings on multistage filtration. It has influenced my understandhing of how to best deliver fuel to the engine in the most reliable manner. However I dont agree with the statement above.
Go ahead and use multistage filtration and then after several hundred hours pull the on-engine filter. Cut it apart. It will have gunk in it !
The statement above is actually dangerous in that it lulls one into believing they never have to change their on-engine filters....ever.

For the low cost of a filter, why take this risk?

R.

Fuel filter philosophy is like anchors and religion. You will get LOTS of variations in answers to your questions.
This is an opportunity for you to design your fuel filtration system the way you determine it should really be done.
Having a second, standby filter is helpful if your other filter clogs.My boat had that when I bought it in 2007. Then at only 80hrs, I clogged the single 2micron filter and starved the engine. I had JUST left Fairlee Creek MD on the Chesapeake, and if you know anything about that place, you will know that*it is NOT a place you want to have an engine shut down !
But in that scenario, by switching over to the clean standby filter, you are saving the effort of having to change the filter that is dirty at a time that might not be good - ie , waves, high boat traffic area, inlet, whatever might be the worst possible time. However, fuel starvation of your engine will still occur in this scenario and you will STILL have a dead engine and have to go down and bleed the system.
This is where multi-stage filtration excels and is better than the standby filter configuration.
Multi-stage filtration provides you with an increase in the AVAILABILITY and RELIABILITY of your fuel going to the engine. You want the engine to be able to get the fuel when it calls for it.
I have 3 Racor 500s in series using 30, 10 and 2 micron filters, then goes on to the engine where another 2 micron filter gets the fuel on the engine. And yes, I do have a single standby filter but only because that was my original filter configuration when I bought the boat, so I decided to keep it. I simply used one side of the pair as the last part of my multistage filtration.
Finally, once you build the multistage filtration system, its very easy to simply add an electric fuel pump and a few valves in the hoses to create a fuel polishing system.
In this photo, you can see the three filters of the multistage filtration in my boat.
http://tinyurl.com/2u8t4lg
In the bottom lower left you can see the valve that switches the standby filter if needed.
My engine is a single Lehman 120. I also use a Racor 500 for my genset.
Note that ALL of my filters are Racor 500 so I only have one filter cartridge type for all filters. If I should ever run out of one size cartridge I can still use another size in any filter body.
R.

GonzoF1 wrote:

Link(s)? Pretty please?

What is the thread size of the filters?

(Should you use thread tape on fuel fittings? It looks like it in Leonard's pic.)

Click to expand...

http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.350.355/408

Every good hydraulic shop will have a selection of filter heads and brackets.

I do not recommend using thread tape on fuel or lube oil systems. Here is a link to the stuff I prefer to use. They make a version for just about every fluid and it works well.

http://www.rectorseal.com/chrt.htm

*


-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 09:41:47 AM

"(Should you use thread tape on fuel fittings? It looks like it in Leonard's pic.)"

I use teflon tape. I know compounds like rectorseal are better.

However, I have never had an issue with tape so I will continue to do what has worked for me. I am very careful and never put tape on the first 2 threads.

It sure would be cheap enough to switch to spin-on filters. My issue is that I already have two Raycor 500's (one for engine... one for genset), so picking up a couple more on eBay would be easy enough too. Maybe not AS cheap... But whatever. That's why I like Leonard's solution better. With the added plus of carrying only one (small) type of filter for all apps.

Can you get the easy switch-over valve and vac gauge without buying it from Raycor?

**EDIT** Of course... After giving it some more thought, configuring two 2-stage spin-off rigs would only be about $200, then I could dedicate my current 500's to the genset.

Can I see some pics of people's spin-off rigs?

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 10:37:16 AM

GonzoF1 wrote:

**EDIT** Of course... After giving it some more thought, configuring two 2-stage spin-off rigs would only be about $200, then I could dedicate my current 500's to the genset.

Can I see some pics of people's spin-off rigs?

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 10:37:16 AM

Click to expand...

Why 500 for the gen set.* Two things to consider.* One the fuel flow to the gen set does not require a 500*and two the gen set pickup is usually a foot or so from the bottom of your tank so you don't need the water bowl like you have for the engine.* If you have that much water in your fuel you have more problems than a filter can fix.* A*Racor 100 series*does the job.* Which is a small*spin on R12C*can.

It looks like you can built a 2 stage like Tony sells but by the time you jack around getting all of the parts I think that for about $50 bucks more you can get the complete set up from Tony. *Primer and all. *No chasing the one piece you didn't pick up or any hassles.

"Why 500 for the gen set.* Two things to consider.* One the fuel flow to the gen set does not require a 500*"

My 1983 has a 500 as oem for the genset. Many boats of this era are set up like this.

jleonard wrote:

"Why 500 for the gen set.* Two things to consider.* One the fuel flow to the gen set does not require a 500*"

My 1983 has a 500 as oem for the genset. Many boats of this era are set up like this.

Click to expand...

That may be true but a 500 is a 65 GPH filter and a 100 is 15 GPH filter.* I'm not to sure but I don't think most 5-8 KW Gensets need more than*15 GPH filtration.

*

Well... One thing is for sure, My system needs a major upgrade. I don't mind jacking around with the plumbing. I enjoy it and my rig is pretty sloppy now. So a more space efficient rig would be a needed change.

I do like the idea of a smaller, more genset specific filter. I always thought having one for the generator the same size as for the main was weird. Still, having only one type of filter for all apps was kinda easy to keep track of.

I'll see if I can scare up a pic or two for y'all to see.

A 500 will not hurt you in any way if already in use on the genset. It just loses the "turbine " effect that PH lauds at the lower fuel velocity, but you still have an over sized very good filter to catch all the gunk.

Afdter reading many pages at Boatdiesel.com, I may be back on the Fleetguard bandwagon. However, I am curious as to why they are so anti-Raycor? Still, I am going to seek out a hydraulic shop here in Raleigh somewhere and try and bodge together a new system for a spring install.

Any design tips? I'd like to have a polish system and tank transfer rig. Maybe backup filtration too, but not sure about that just yet if the filters are that easy to change out. Where can I find the selector valves, fittings, and primer pump? Should it be at a high point in the system? Will barbed fitting be enough?

Love to get y'all to help me come up with a great fuel rig. Thanks.

(Single Perkins 130hp at 2 GHP)

The 3 stage system can be purchased as a package form boatdiesel. No design or chasing fittings required. My guess, you will not need a fuel polishing system once you install a 3 stage setup.

sunchaser wrote:

The 3 stage system can be purchased as a package form boatdiesel. No design or chasing fittings required. My guess, you will not need a fuel polishing system once you install a 3 stage setup.

Click to expand...

At $400 for a dually set with vac gauges, I think I'll try and put one together for myself. Or at the least, look into it. I have some other fuel plumbing things to work out too. But I may call them and see what they might reco.


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Monday 27th of December 2010 12:13:36 PM

"However, I am curious as to why they are so anti-Raycor? "

Tony Athens is anti Racor only because element changes and cleaning of a Racor is/can be messy and time consuming. You not only must change the elements you must clean the bowl from time to time. Sometimes when you put the lid back on there can be dirt left on the gasket and that*can shut the engine down.

He touts spin offs because they are easy to change and require no maintenance.

If you have most of the filters units already and they are Racors, so what use what you have to build a multi-stage set up. *If you must buy another filter unit then consider a spin off. *

Boatyards , discount houses will usually have Raycors.

With truck takeouts you are left to carry your own supply aboard .

BEWARE , fuel and lube oil filters are expected to be used ,, not stored.

IF you are storing them , put them in a sealed plastic bag , after a quickie spray with preserving oil. (I use fogging oil.)

True, a Racor 500 is more than adequate for a 8kw genset. However, having designed my multi-stage filtration for the main engine with three 500s, and having a single seperate 500 Racor for the genset, I now have the ability to use any filter in any filter body, including the genset. No need to have to stock a unique filter replacement just ofr the genset. If the genset clogs and I need a replacement its all the same.
R.

Do you have a picture of your rig?

BTW... The surges have come back a little. There is a bit of a story to tell that I will tell tomorrow, but it looks like I need to get the fuel and or tanks cleaned.

but it looks like I need to get the fuel and or tanks cleaned.


The trawlers lament .

Hiya,
** Mr. Gonzo.* It's GOTTA be your 2 micron filter again.* It's just GOTTA be...

When we got to the boat this time after being away for a month, I found an inch or more of sediment in the bowls of the Racors. Seeing that I didn't have a rebuild kit, I didn't really want to pull them apart without the proper parts to seal them back up. However, I WAS able to get them clean with a combination of drain and fill, plus, a handy zip-tie that allowed me to stir up the goo enough to get out of the drain. It was a little tricky, but very effective (which reminds me I need to order the parts). So I have to assume I have to get the fuel clean.

Which leads me to a couple of new questions. Since I am in the market for putting together a new fuel filtering rig, can I build a fuel scrubber to use as well? I'd like it to be portable. I think the parts using the screw-on filters would be fine, but I need a pretty good size pump. I think I'd like to do 20-40gph (number pulled from rear end) and just be able to divert the fuel from the tank exit to a "T" that goes thru a two-stage filter and back into the tank thru the filler hole with enough pressure to knock some of the goo off the inside of the tank. Perhaps a wand with a 4-way exit that will squirt clean fuel all directions.

What are some good leads on pumps for this kind of job?

My fuel exits thru the lowest part of the tank, so it should get good circulation and hopefully, with some persistence, my tanks be clean in a matter of weeks or months. The same rig will also allow me to move enough fuel from one tank to another so I can remove the inspection plate and actually eyeball the results.

Opinions?

with enough pressure to knock some of the goo off the inside of the tank.

Dream on.

Here in FL a very large aircraft fuel pump and 15A 120v motor suck dirty fuel , pass it thru 3 or 4 filters that stand waste high and return it to the tank under HIGH (40-70PSI?).

Given enough time this will clean much of the fuel , but the tank is not cleaned as the return is not directed at the goop and any large tank will have baffles which stop ant blast clean action.

Want a clean tank? Open it up and get your scraper out.

Anything else is like waiting for the tooth Fairy.

http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com/howto/captnwil.html

The* basis is a Gulf Coast F-1 filter and a Walbro continuous duty fuel pump. I built a system like this for my boat and love it. Of course you could build it to be portable. You could even use other fiters, but the depth type filtration is much better if you have really dirty fuel.

Good stuff. THANKS!

One thing I did notice during the process of cleaning the Racor filter was that, as I did the drain and fill procedure, was how slowly the gravity fed fuel filled the filter back up. I mean, it took several minutes to refill a Racor 500 to the top. I'm sure that is part of my problem too. There could be some blockage at the tank's exit and that would certainly cause those little surges if, in fact, fuel starvation is at the center of this issue.

**EDIT** Brass or bronze fittings and valves?



-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 5th of January 2011 08:05:48 AM

GonzoF1 wrote:*Brass or bronze fittings and valves?

Click to expand...

Brass is fine.

FF is absolutely correct in that squirting a little bit of filtered diesel fuel at your tank is NOT going to do anything besides aerate the stuff.

Tank cleaning is not just a matter of lightly rinsing the sides. Tank cleaning machines as used on tankers use around 150 psig to wash down the residue that clings to the sides. That process is followed by buckets and shovels to remove the rest of the stuff, and crude oil is (mostly)*pretty light and clean stuff, just waxy sometimes. Just because our tanks are small and carry what we believe is clean fuel doesn't mean they are any easier to clean.

Mechanical cleaning is the only way to remove the sediment and crud from a fuel tank. Scraping and pressure washing followed by wiping clean and dry is the only way to remove the stuff you find in the bottom of a filter bowl.

*

I borrowed a friend's portable filtering setup when I first bought my Albin. I filtered from one tank into the other and when that tank was empty I inspected thru a hatch and there was no visable crud to speak of...also ran the intake hose and fitting under the baffles and as far as I could tell there wasn't any gunk buildup.
Then I filtered back into the original tank and did the same type of inspection.

After filtering approx 300 gallons of fuel the filters did not look dirty to me. I expected crud but they were pretty clean.

What kind of pump is that (lower left corner) and how long/often did you run it?