Old Engine for New Trawler

Can it be documented to another country??


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's

Makobuilders, the presence of programmed chips and microprocessors in a marine environment does give one pause. An old saying: " When you say 'electricity on a boat,' you've said a mouthful." For one thing, I wonder what happens to those chips when lightning strikes near the boat?

On the other hand, the diesel engine in my VW is electronically controlled, right down to the fly-by-wire throttle. After fourteen years, 212K miles, and lots of hair-raising Florida thunder / lightning storms, it's given me far less trouble than its mechanically controlled predecessor ever did.

I love the smell of diesel in the morning! But I love my grand babies too, and I've come to regard a cleaner exhaust as an investment in their future. The only reason I can see for waiting to adopt green engine technologies is that the technologies keep getting better. Nevertheless, when my equipment reaches that time its replacement cycle, I'll upgrade my land and sea-based propulsion as best I can afford to.

Forkliftt said:

Can it be documented to another country??

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I hadn't' really thought about that. Perhaps a flag of convenience country, which would certainly be lower-profile when traveling than having an American flag on the stern. Which countries are most advantageous for a private boat?

Ski in NC said:

Maybe find a rudder off a 1947 boat and then "rebuild" your boat around it.

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If you look at my post that restarted these conversations (#20) I was sorta going in that direction. There are ways around paperwork. It will be years before the boat reaches American waters and will be "used" at that point anyway.

I certainly like the idea of actually protecting our environment even on a small scale, but several things hammer at my mind:
(1) I have to live with this boat for the next several decades, not some politician;
(2) I'm responsible for the safety and lives of my family during this period and I cannot believe the engine electronics will be 100% reliable during that entire time, which leaves me stranded in some remote location.
(3) What is the cost to fly a technician into the Soloman Islands from Japan/Korea/etc. to repair my faulty sensor that has shut down the engine??????

I'm starting to lean towards installing the 10hp Tier 3 engine for main propulsion and then switching it out after the boat is operational and has become "used."

This is a very serious subject since I'm getting closer to signing the Contract, but truthfully I might be being overly cautious. Like Blissboat just said, electronics can be very reliable. My Nissan SUV runs perfectly and it is 130 degrees here in Qatar with 95% humidity.

Contact a US based vessel documentation company and ask them what the requirements are for importing a vessel from offshore and documenting it. That may answer many questions.

makobuilders said:

I hadn't' really thought about that. Perhaps a flag of convenience country, which would certainly be lower-profile when traveling than having an American flag on the stern. Which countries are most advantageous for a private boat?

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You might want to look into a Cook Island registration.

Registering a Yacht

Maybe you've got the perfect candidate for an outboard trawler (temporarily unbalanced) with a sufficiently spacious but vacant fish hold.

healhustler said:

Maybe you've got the perfect candidate for an outboard trawler (temporarily unbalanced) with a sufficiently spacious but vacant fish hold.

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Now there's a creative thinker!!! I like this idea!

I am going to approach this from a different angle.

Using the quote:"Based on my past experience I keep coming back to the idea of picking up an old GM 6-71 block and rebuilding it, which I've done before." It appears that Mako is comfortable with his 6-71 for the most part when the concerns of the newere tier 111 engines are a requirement in a new build. If Mako desires to stay with pre tier 111, and not use his 6-71 I would suggest that he check out a Murphy diesel. These are bullet proof slow turning engines equal to the 6-71 and very much fuel pinching in operation. quite, dependable, and reasonably priced when compared to the cost of a new tier 111.

These Murphys are still available along the West Coast of B.C. Canada and there are professionals who are adept at rebuilding them.
That would be my direction being I too lean towards rebuild older engines over the newer complicated electronic units.

Al-Ketchikan

I've heard of the Murphys for years but know little about them. Would somebody post up the basics on them?

Eric, Murphys are a good old engine, however I erred in my engine choice I meant to use Gardner. This is a superior engine to the Murphy or in anticipation of heretic claims, the 6-71. Now we are speaking in tongues I know when tier 111 engines are used in the same breath as these older KISS engines. But I love them.
Al

Here is the site for Gardner engines.
Gardner Marine Diesel Engines -

Al

Gardner are with out doubt one of the finest boat engines out there. If money was no object I would have one.

Both the Murphy and Gardner are fine engines, but parts are going to be hard to get in the future. My vote is for the Cummins 855 which is in marine service and millions were made for US highway trucks. It is super reliable, simple design, and parts will be readily available for decades. I too like the 671, but dang that noise. The 855 is very quiet in comparison.

Don't worry about parts for the Gardner. Once it is rebuilt from the ground up , no more parts will be necessary for the next 30,000 hrs.
But if required they are available world wide except maybe the USA.
Junks in Hong Kong, Dowhs on the Nile and buses all over India.Parts supplies are available from agents in the UK, Australia, NZ and numerous other countries around the globe.

IF I were creating an engine package for a new boat , I would select the tranny from a landing craft.

Two engines are bolted to it with a single output , so the shaft would still be protected by the keel

Either or both can operate together.

(2) 3-71 would be my first choice as they could be canabalized to keep one running , with only 20,000 to 30,000 hours of service life , this wont be an early hassle.

A 3-71 and 6-71 could be chosen with great commonality in parts.

A CPP would add to the boats abilities , for about $10-$14K extra.

A hatch over the engine and in the cabin top as built in , would make any engine swop an overnight job. Use your flopper stopper mast to lift.

If sadly the air police were involved a 80-100HP engine could be used on one side , and a good sized noisemaker with an added reduction gear (if no CPP) would make a great working get home package..

FF said:

IF I were creating an engine package for a new build , I would selexct the tranny from a landing craft.

Two engines are bolted to it with a single output , so the shaft would still be protected by the keel

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Interesting idea. Mate a Cummings or Gray Marine prime mover to it and also a small 20hp Tier 3 engine as "get home power" plus this allows the boat to be documented properly.

Build the boat so the engine can be easily replaced.

Are you sure you need a Tier 3 engine in order to document? First I've heard that, especially for recreational use outside the U.S. I'm retired though (naval architect) so I've been cruising full time and not following things like this recently.

I've been designing sophisticated boats with electronic engines since 1990 and never heard of a significant problem. They all have a take home feature in which they will run, although a bit less efficiently and clean, if the electronics die.

These boats all have electronic engines:

GARDNER DIESELS
Interesting little conundrum here:

1) The price for a new 180hp tier 3 with gear comes out to about $25k and provides the power we need plus reserve.
2) The price of a factory rebuilt 6LXB at 127hp with gear is a bit over $30k. Not much in the way of reserve power, but hell, I think I could live with that.
3) The price of a professionally rebuilt 6-71, Cummins or Deere of 180hp, with gear, would be about half the Gardner.

"$30,000 Gardner rebuild" Really? Wow, who would have thunk. Have to check with my engine shop for thoughts. AMJ

Roger Long said:

Are you sure you need a Tier 3 engine in order to document? First I've heard that, especially for recreational use outside the U.S. I'm retired though (naval architect) so I've been cruising full time and not following things like this recently.

I've been designing sophisticated boats with electronic engines since 1990 and never heard of a significant problem. They all have a take home feature in which they will run, although a bit less efficiently and clean, if the electronics die.
...

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My understanding is that you need a Tier III engine for US and MARPOL compliance. If your boat is not going to be imported or used in the US or a MARPOL country then you can use whatever engine you want but if you want to operate in the US or some/all of the EU, the engine should be compliant.

I asked JD last year about what would happen if the ECM died in their engine. They said the engine would not run and their was no limp home mode which really surprised me.

Another big Oh Scat about these new engines is that the JD engines need, fuel, air and electric power. If there is no electric power on the boat for whatever reason, the engine will not run.

Later,
Dan

Over haul cost -Gardner

Received a response from a Gardner dealer in the UK. They do not have a recognized shop in the whole Canada to his knowledge. I want to believe that there is some outlet or shops in B.C. that has, had, or do address Gardner overhauls. At any rate, were a Gardner 6LXB marine engine at this shop the complete overhaul will run about $9000.00 British Pounds or near 17,500 plus or minus.
That makes a decision over a new tier 111 a bit more comfortable.

Sorry, the damn type disappeared!!!


There is a fisherman in the Ketchikan troller fleet that had a boat with the newer tier 111 John Deere engine. After being broke down on at least two occasions where he had to be towed into a harbor and anchored, waiting for the technical mechanic and parts the decision was made to purchase a rebuilt Gardner. As a result he is the envie of the fleet for the fuel savings, slow turning quite engine, and very long life.
While he is not in any parts issues, he is confident that parts are not an issue and has a Canadian source apparently.
This is my contribution to the discussion.

Al-Ketchikan

dannc said:

My understanding is that you need a Tier III engine for US and MARPOL compliance. If your boat is not going to be imported or used in the US or a MARPOL country then you can use whatever engine you want but if you want to operate in the US or some/all of the EU, the engine should be compliant.

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As someone who has looked into installing a non compliant engine in a foreign flagged vessel it is my understanding that you can bring and operate a non compliant foreign flagged vessel into US waters but your time is limited to, I believe, six months and then you have to leave US waters.

For those interested there is currently a Duck head who is having a Gardner 6LXB installed in his SHM Diesel Duck 5402. Here is a link to a thread on DuckTalk.net regarding the Gardner 6LXB:

Engine Gardner 6LXB - Topic

Here's a pic of the engine being installed:

Al said:

Received a response from a Gardner dealer in the UK... the complete overhaul will run about $9000.00 British Pounds or near 17,500 plus or minus.

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I was just quoted that unit for my new build. The price with gear is 19,000 Sterling which is $31,000US (plus shipping of course). Very pricey and I'm on a tight budget.

The biggest issue is the EPA compliance which is easily avoided by registering the boat offshore (Cook Islands, etc.). The hassle comes if you want to bring it back to America permanently or even for several years. Resale is affected of course without a Tier 3 compliance.

To update everyone, I am having conversations right now with EPA staff about a possible exemption for the older engine which would still allow documentation in America. Hope to have an answer within a day or two.

dannc said:

I asked JD last year about what would happen if the ECM died in their engine. They said the engine would not run and their was no limp home mode.

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That rules out the 4045 for me, thanks for the update.

However I checked with AGCO SISU and their model does have a limp home mode. It still requires electricity to run the engine, but with solar panels, house batteries and a few strands of wire, the chances of being 100% without electricity are rather small.

That is assuming that Godzilla does not blast you with an EMP

Mr Duck 492 , they don't get any prettier than that.
Looks like my 6LXB when it went in 3 years ago.
When I did my engine replacement I could have put in a John Deer I think 6068TFM50 for about 35k or my fully rebuilt 6LXB for 42K
As I work with electronic engines the choice was a no brainer and in Aus the engine choice is also better for resale.

So who ACTUALLY checks the engine on these boats for tier III compliance?.. I am referring to actual visually checks? my guess is nobody. The comment about it effecting the value of the boat? anyone that knows anything about marine diesels would pay MORE for the Gardner.

Even if the boat is checked when brand new and imported to the US nobody will ever check the boat again.. there is no "smog" check on boats that I have ever heard of in the US.

Can a U.S. builder build a new boat with a non compliant motor.. not if they want to remain in business. But, after it is registered who will ever check it again?

By the way, the engine below is a work of art and a thing of beauty!

HOLLYWOOD

hollywood8118 said:

So who ACTUALLY checks the engine on these boats for tier III compliance?.. I am referring to actual visually checks? my guess is nobody. The comment about it effecting the value of the boat? anyone that knows anything about marine diesels would pay MORE for the Gardner.

Even if the boat is checked when brand new and imported to the US nobody will ever check the boat again.. there is no "smog" check on boats that I have ever heard of in the US.

Can a U.S. builder build a new boat with a non compliant motor.. not if they want to remain in business. But, after it is registered who will ever check it again?

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I believe that when documenting a foreign built/flagged vessel into the US that papers and physical check will take place. Penalties are extremely high for falsifying as well. However, like you said, once you're in-country there is nothing to stop you from ripping out your engine and replacing it.

If it is THAT important to the boat owner then I would say install a 20hp Tier 3, bring it to the USA, move it to the generator pad and install whatever iron you wish. Could even bring the Gardner with you as cargo, in a crate sitting up on deck.

There are certainly lots of creative ways around the "system," but personally I'll probably skip these shenanigans. Would prefer to do things just one time and stick with it.

Why not go to the source?

Publications and Forms for Importing Vehicles and Engines | Importing Vehicles and Engines into the United States | US EPA

A "Cliff's Notes" version:

Frontier Power Products - US EPA & Canadian Emissions Regulations & documentation

"3) The price of a professionally rebuilt 6-71,"

I think you should check Boats & Harbors for a DD rebuildrer.

About $6,000

I still suggest the Intl DT 360 for a look.

At about $3,000 you can get a modern low mileage electric injected unit that should keep the air police happy.

cummins vs. dt360/dt466 - School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums

www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=18366


Apr 17, 2008 - 36 posts - ‎13 authors
The DT360 turns 2700rpm stock, and will be happy at about 3000 forever. .... I think International made a mistake cutting the 360 engine, but I ...



International DT360 Engine Data Sheet - Agkits.com

www.agkits.com › ... › International Navistar Data Sheets




Engine Specification Data for the International DT360.