Towed home

Baker...you are absolutely correct and Hollywood makes the eternal argument against insurance.

psneeld said:

Baker...you are absolutely correct and Hollywood makes the eternal argument against insurance.

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The arguments for and against insurance are basically the same regardless of what type insurance being discussed.

One other option is just having coverage on high dollar amounts, those above what you can easily handle. High deductible medical plans are becoming prevalent.

However, outside medical, I've found high deductible to not provide the savings I might have thought they would. Auto is a prime example. $100, $250, $500, $1000. I thought one time there was a very large difference between each of those steps. Not so last time I asked the question. The reason is that it's not the $200 or $400 claim that really costs. It's the $10,000 - $25,000 claim and on them a $100 deductible vs. $500 really means little. Perhaps this varies based on driving record. I found the same thing on boat insurance. To reduce the premium and to reduce the probability of even having to deal with the insurance carrier, I asked for prices with much higher deductibles. I found that multiplying my deductible on the hull coverage by 10 (1000%) would only result in a 1.5% reduction in premium.

psneeld said:

Baker...you are absolutely correct and Hollywood makes the eternal argument against insurance.

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Thank you sir. And I consider your opinion in this matter with much greater weight since you are the professional here. I really am not necessarily arguing for or against at this point. I just want to understand.

I will say we had this one dude on our dock way back when. He had a (VW)Pathfinder diesel in his sailboat. The fuel solenoid on his boat was wired to fail closed when it lost electrical power and he was having electrical issues and he was not all that smart. Long story short(if it is not too late), he would get towed in every time he went out. Sea Tow cancelled him after about the 4th or 5th tow in about a 2 month stretch. I guess there is something in the paperwork that provides for cancellation if you "overuse" your privileges.

I will reconsider carrying tow insurance if nothing more than to support the franchise. But as I typed that, I realized that there are so many people in this area that are just smart enough to carry the insurance while not necesarily smart enough to keep a boat in proper order..... So I think those guys are covered. And I would assume the private franchises only make money when there is a tow....not on the yearly premiums???

Baker your logic is sound and your general line of thinking applies equally to most all forms of insurance. Insurance in general is a tool used to protect ones self against a financial risk they otherwise would not or could not normally afford.

Example: my current term life insurance policy will expire in a few years once the last of our children are out of the nest and all of our nests have been paid for. There's more than enough money in our checking account to cover our "final expenses".

CPseudonym said:

Baker your logic is sound and your general line of thinking applies equally to most all forms of insurance. Insurance in general is a tool used to protect ones self against a financial risk they otherwise would not or could not normally afford.

Example: my current term life insurance policy will expire in a few years once the last of our children are out of the nest and all of our nests have been paid for. There's more than enough money in our checking account to cover our "final expenses".

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I would agree to some degree. But...I think in ref to tow insurance, one has more control over the risk. There are MANY more variables when it comes to cars or your health. Variables that are well beyond one's control. So that is the big difference....in my opinion.

Baker said:

So I think those guys are covered. And I would assume the private franchises only make money when there is a tow....not on the yearly premiums???

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They make money on a combination of the two.

As to the person you mentioned who was cancelled by Sea Tow, I know of one person on the lake who was terminated by Boat US. He had run aground once, he'd run out of fuel two or three times. But the clincher was battery. First, he had an inadequate car battery in his boat. The tow captain was very nice to him, had even boosted him twice at his dock, which isn't officially covered. But the clincher was the second day in a row, on top of the previous weekend, that he required a battery boost on the lake. He would go anchor and they would turn the music up and swim and drink all afternoon and eventually run their little battery down. The final time was a very busy day and the tow captain told him to just stay anchored and it would be a couple of hours as he had a sinking boat he was dealing with. The customer lost it and cursed him about that being unacceptable and not the standards promised, then called back the company to complain, saying he wanted a refund of his premium to compensate him. Well, he was informed on Monday he would be getting his premium back as his membership was cancelled.

The sad thing is the amount of negative publicity this brought as he told dozens if not hundreds about being stranded and when he complained about it taking over two hours, they cancelled him. Oh, and ultimately he only had to wait an hour and 20 minutes. He was just quoted a conservative two hours.

I've found the tow companies go out of their way. Even when the customer is wrong, negative publicity is still very harmful.

The rest of the story. He signed up then with Sea Tow. Got very upset when they wouldn't come boost him at his dock. Said he should charge it there. He said he didn't have a charger, they suggested he should get one. Then he says, Boat US always did it. We moved and I have no idea how the future with Sea Tow went. Now I'm curious. lol.

Baker said:

There are MANY more variables when it comes to cars or your health. Variables that are well beyond one's control. So that is the big difference....in my opinion.

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You got that right. At 59 years old I've never, ever, had a medical issue more than the sniffles for a few days during even the worst of the flu seasons. Until my insurance company ponied up ~$35k to Johns Hopkins for my recent cancer surgery. Damn! I sure didn't see that coming, I plan on being Last Man Standing among all my broken down friends and relatives.

Medical insurance is the last major hurdle I have to deal with before retirement. Hopefully in 33 months. I did a preliminary look at the ACA costs - WHOA! Just not sure yet what I'm going to do about that.

Baker said:

Thank you sir. And I consider your opinion in this matter with much greater weight since you are the professional here. I really am not necessarily arguing for or against at this point. I just want to understand.

I will say we had this one dude on our dock way back when. He had a (VW)Pathfinder diesel in his sailboat. The fuel solenoid on his boat was wired to fail closed when it lost electrical power and he was having electrical issues and he was not all that smart. Long story short(if it is not too late), he would get towed in every time he went out. Sea Tow cancelled him after about the 4th or 5th tow in about a 2 month stretch. I guess there is something in the paperwork that provides for cancellation if you "overuse" your privileges.

I will reconsider carrying tow insurance if nothing more than to support the franchise. But as I typed that, I realized that there are so many people in this area that are just smart enough to carry the insurance while not necesarily smart enough to keep a boat in proper order..... So I think those guys are covered. And I would assume the private franchises only make money when there is a tow....not on the yearly premiums???

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I believe the difference between the two major towers is....

Sea Tow franchises get a big chunk of each membership and cover their overhead from that...

Boat US franchises send all membership money to Boat US Corporate...and they only get money back when towing.

That is my loose understanding of the two and the finer points I have never bothered with as I am just a hired gun captain. Not to say my general knowledge hasn't been tapped and sit downs with the boss do happen about running the business occasionally.

The Coastie in me wants to apologize every time I hand one of these eye opening bills to non-members....but I am loyal no matter which master I serve.

The other day I gave a person a $882+ bill for 5 gallons of fuel delivered. It was painful but the common response...probably more so from other boaters is "it is their own fault"....especially since the guy had borrowed his mother in laws boat. In this case in the guy had no clue about the boat and the mother in law should have had the insurance to keep the borrowing family members from a dire out of pocket expense. Just to keep good feelings.

On the other hand....I too am one of those guys who tries to and has been successful in taking care of my own situations. But I feel in my blood a tow coming in my future because cruising like I am doing in an older boat. It just begs a situation where I would rather call and relax while I troubleshoot...knowing I have 2 options and one wont cost anything that day when my head is spinning already.

Will I pay out more in the next 20 years than I get back in tows? I don't know... I probably will....but I will figure out where to cut an expense here or there to give me that option...maybe a spare part that just doesn't have the shelf life it should.

I don't fight Murphy and his law is, if I drop or reduce some coverage I never use, then I'll need it.

psneeld said:

Will I pay out more in the next 20 years than I get back in tows? I don't know... I kinda hope not....but I will figure out where to cut an expense here or there to give me that option...maye a spare part that just doesn't have the shelf life it should.

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I kinda hope it turns out to be the worst investment I ever made and I pay out and never use.

BandB said:

I kinda hope it turns out to be the worst investment I ever made and I pay out and never use.

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I just went back and corrected what I really meant...like you too...

BandB said:

I don't fight Murphy and his law is, if I drop or reduce some coverage I never use, then I'll need it.

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Trust me....after all of the things I have said in this thread I will likely need a tow the next time I go out!!!!

And in response to psneeld and his cruising on an older boat... I did buy tow insurance when I bought this boat. It was a neglected boat so there were a lot of unknowns when I first got it. Now I have it somewhat sorted out and feel comfortable with it. So I let it lapse...

Well.... this thread got fun!

Hope everyone is still friends!

Yikes, 882+ for 5 gallons of fuel? But, I bet he was damn glad to get it and not deal with an irate mother in law. Education is an expensive enterprise.

once delivered 2 gallons of 2 stroke oil 50 miles out to a member...lucky for him he was a member otherwise it would have been around $600 per gallon...

I wasn't born with a wrench in my hand and while I can do the basics of changing filters, etc, it pretty much stops there. I have both sea tow and Boatus and for $400 or so have huge piece of mind. I love my boat, I love cruising, and more importantly, I love redundancy!

Wayfarer said:

I'm not sure which is worse, the starter noise, or the music. Glad you got back safely. Also glad I decided to get towing insurance. Good luck with the fix!

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Music for sure mate! HAHA


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I have a Towboat US franchaise. TBUS and Vessel Assist merged several years ago. Both are owned by Boat US. Boat US was sold to Berkshire Hathaway which recently moved us to Gieco. On the East coast and Inland Waters, it is called TBUS on the west coast is is called vessel assist. To my knowledge the policy's are the same. SeaTow is privately held based on Long Island. Interesting that the founders of both company's were very competitive and both died last year.

Technically the membership is a pre paid service , not insurance. I agree you will get towed membership or not. Some people get AAA some do not. You might find it interesting how many expired or non members try to trick us into a free tow. The vast majority of tows result from un prepared boaters who take un necessary risks. The first thing I hear is I knew the blank was bad but.... you learn not to feel sorry for them, it's the boater that truly needs help for a unforeseen circumstance that makes the job rewarding.

Greatlaker221 said:

I have a Towboat US franchaise. TBUS and Vessel Assist merged several years ago. Both are owned by Boat US. Boat US was sold to Berkshire Hathaway which recently moved us to Gieco. On the East coast and Inland Waters, it is called TBUS on the west coast is is called vessel assist. To my knowledge the policy's are the same. SeaTow is privately held based on Long Island. Interesting that the founders of both company's were very competitive and both died last year.

Technically the membership is a pre paid service , not insurance. I agree you will get towed membership or not. Some people get AAA some do not. You might find it interesting how many expired or non members try to trick us into a free tow. The vast majority of tows result from un prepared boaters who take un necessary risks. The first thing I hear is I knew the blank was bad but.... you learn not to feel sorry for them, it's the boater that truly needs help for a unforeseen circumstance that makes the job rewarding.

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Depends on where you are I guess....

I provide a lot of assistance calls to vessels aground as well as out of fuel and battery jump assists.

Sometimes to the clueless boater who doesn't understand the safety lanyard or fuel switching valve also.

Sea Tow does seem to resemble true insurance at the franchise level as opposed to Boat US.... a risk versus a risk versus money sent to corporate then redistributed at the local level.

I agree with how many people try to lie about their coverage or lack thereof....

Any kind of good, well written insurance is great when you need it... otherwise it's just another "low-drain" safety expense. People who really monetarily make out on the plus side with insurance are those who get paid stated-value boodles for whatever is insured and got trashed soon after they buy the insurance and have started paying.

A Situation: 6 PM, Sunday 7/26/15 wife and I had a $150K +/- calamity happen to one of our houses (200 yr old oak split at the trunk and fell on the one we live in). CA AAA insurance is paying... all should be made whole before winter. We hit the keys on a calculator and found that after paying homeowners to them since 1972 (43 years) that we come out a bit on top of the $$$ game by being covered. Insurance is a necessary item. They'll eventually be back on $$$ top again because we will keep on paying the premium. And, for insurance companies to make profits on policies in general is necessary so they stay in business. We are in a nice paid-for hotel. Tree has been removed off our house. Repairs begin soon. Life is GOOD! Thank you ins cos!

And no - I do not carry any tow insurance for our boat; never have. Why??? - because I have a tow package written into our comprehensive boat ins policy. As well, our boat has twins!

Maybe the membership fees are essential to the business model that allows towing services to exist. If so, fair enough. But from the point of view of a prudent boater, self-insuring is the better play over the long haul. Think ahead, be alert, be prepared, and be careful. And be a good Samaritan. If you still get in a jam, call for help and pay the towing company's bill.

During fifty years of boating, I've lost count of the folks I've snatched off a sandbar, towed in to the nearest marina, or loaned a tool to (while I stood by). I grew up understanding that that is just what you do. I trust that someone would do that for me in the event (a couple of folks have). Maybe that's naive these days, and maybe it's bad joss to even say all of this. In any case, I've never spent a dime on towing insurance, but I respect the towboat operators right to make a living. Someday I'll need help again, and none of the people I've helped in the past will be around to return the favor. Then I'll pay for the tow.

While not an enthusiast of this style of "insurance",

it would be prudent for the get home delivery of a "new to you" boat that could have loads of PO "fixes" .

After a year of operation it would be far less important.

FF said:

While not an enthusiast of this style of "insurance",

it would be prudent for the get home delivery of a "new to you" boat that could have loads of PO "fixes" .

After a year of operation it would be far less important.

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Very good point.....

There is no penalty for lapsing and renewing later. A really good idea if buying and moving to a different location only to sit and be worked on and cruised locally for several years.

For special cruises, new to you boats, etc it might be a good idea....you just have to see what your threshold is and how lucky you feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FF
While not an enthusiast of this style of "insurance",

it would be prudent for the get home delivery of a "new to you" boat that could have loads of PO "fixes" .

After a year of operation it would be far less important.

psneeld said:

Very good point.....

There is no penalty for lapsing and renewing later. A really good idea if buying and moving to a different location only to sit and be worked on and cruised locally for several years.

For special cruises, new to you boats, etc it might be a good idea....you just have to see what your threshold is and how lucky you feel.

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Now, that is smart! Thanks, guys!

psneeld said:

Very good point.....

There is no penalty for lapsing and renewing later. A really good idea if buying and moving to a different location only to sit and be worked on and cruised locally for several years.

For special cruises, new to you boats, etc it might be a good idea....you just have to see what your threshold is and how lucky you feel.

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I know some delivery captains who make sure the owner purchases before a delivery of a used boat, especially if it hasn't been surveyed. Some carry their own commercial policies. Even with their knowledge and experience and ability, there are just too many things that can go wrong on a boat that's been sitting unused for months or years.

While the captain may even have the ability to get the boat to a dock by themselves, it may not be something they want to risk further damage with until they get somewhere it can be thoroughly checked out. Other times they just don't have the needed parts.

FF said:

While not an enthusiast of this style of "insurance",

it would be prudent for the get home delivery of a "new to you" boat that could have loads of PO "fixes" .

After a year of operation it would be far less important.

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See my post #102 second paragraph.

And BandB, I am of the belief that the insurance "follows" the person operating the boat, not the boat itself. IOW, if I had insurance and you let me borrow your boat, then I am covered on YOUR boat. The only stipulation is that the owner is not aboard at the time. So I would assume a delivery captain is covered regardless of what boat he is on. Maybe there is a special policy for delivery captains...I don't know.

The one time I paid for a tow there was a Sea Tow member aboard my boat. There was discussion of tricking the tow company that he was solely operating the boat(and I was just a tag along passenger) so we could get a free tow but I just don't live my life that way. They towed me. And I paid for it(I said earlier in the thread $250...it might have been $350). Anyway, the tow operator was almost apologetic when he handed me the bill. I had no bones with him at all. It was 2330 on a Saturday night and I got him out of bed. He showed up in less than an hour. We kicked back and listened to music while he towed us home. Totally worth it to me. And again, it was due to my lack of maintenance ref the impeller. You have to take the alternator off and then the water pump off to change the impeller. It was one of those deals where I knew it needed to be done but was procrastinating it due to the hassle of changing it. I also was in very shallow water earlier that day...so potentially suck up a lot of sand and mud and finished it off. So this was something that was within my control and I could have prevented it with normal maintenance.

Baker said:

See my post #102 second paragraph.

And BandB, I am of the belief that the insurance "follows" the person operating the boat, not the boat itself. IOW, if I had insurance and you let me borrow your boat, then I am covered on YOUR boat. The only stipulation is that the owner is not aboard at the time. So I would assume a delivery captain is covered regardless of what boat he is on. Maybe there is a special policy for delivery captains...I don't know.
.

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If the boat is covered, then the delivery captain is covered on that boat.

However, if the boat doesn't have coverage, a commercial user such as a delivery captain, can't purchase the basic policy and be covered on every boat in the instance the boat owner lacks coverage. The delivery captain would need a commercial membership. The commercial policy is $281.

BandB said:

If the boat is covered, then the delivery captain is covered on that boat.

However, if the boat doesn't have coverage, a commercial user such as a delivery captain, can't purchase the basic policy and be covered on every boat in the instance the boat owner lacks coverage. The delivery captain would need a commercial membership. The commercial policy is $281.

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Then it sounds like a delivery captain, as a professional, needs to have that insurance.

BandB said:

...there are just too many things that can go wrong on a boat that's been sitting unused for months or years.

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Said by a mariner previously:

"Every part on a boat is in process of becoming broken... we just don't know which part is next"

Baker said:

See my post #102 second paragraph.

And BandB, I am of the belief that the insurance "follows" the person operating the boat, not the boat itself. IOW, if I had insurance and you let me borrow your boat, then I am covered on YOUR boat. The only stipulation is that the owner is not aboard at the time. So I would assume a delivery captain is covered regardless of what boat he is on. Maybe there is a special policy for delivery captains...I don't know.

Most are pretty embarrassed when caught in the lie.

The one time I paid for a tow there was a Sea Tow member aboard my boat. There was discussion of tricking the tow company that he was solely operating the boat(and I was just a tag along passenger) so we could get a free tow but I just don't live my life that way. They towed me. And I paid for it(I said earlier in the thread $250...it might have been $350). Anyway, the tow operator was almost apologetic when he handed me the bill. I had no bones with him at all. It was 2330 on a Saturday night and I got him out of bed. He showed up in less than an hour. We kicked back and listened to music while he towed us home. Totally worth it to me. And again, it was due to my lack of maintenance ref the impeller. You have to take the alternator off and then the water pump off to change the impeller. It was one of those deals where I knew it needed to be done but was procrastinating it due to the hassle of changing it. I also was in very shallow water earlier that day...so potentially suck up a lot of sand and mud and finished it off. So this was something that was within my control and I could have prevented it with normal maintenance.

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Funny story about your friend...

I get situations like that all the time...it is usually easy to figure out by body language ...
what nails it is some basic questions and sit back and watch the expressions and answers.

I may have missed a couple through the years....but have caught dozens in the trickery..

It can go either way with delivery captains...many have the insurance but many dont. I would say that out of all the marine services provided for compensation...the most saturated with true amateurs is the delivery business.