Hard to pump out black tank

Pgitug said:

Most boats have either a surface mount or recessed mount vent with screens, like the picture. When they plug, and they always plug, I just take a 1/8" drill bit and drill the shiny stainless face of the unit. Too small for most bugs, big enough for air.View attachment 42878

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Those are actually fuel vent thru-hulls...boat builders use 'em on every vent line--fuel, water and waste--because they can buy the same ones in bulk cheaper than they can buy the best ones for each use.

They're ok for water tanks, but not for waste tanks 'cuz they don't allow enough air exchange via the vent. I'd replace it with an open bulkhead thru-hull that will allow you to back flush the vent line every time you wash the boat. The occasional bug that manages to get into it will be washed into the tank....and unlike your fresh water supply, a bug or two can't contaminate sewage. They only plug up the vent line if you neglect back flushing it..

On the subject of flushing the vent line with a hose from the thru hull fitting..... if you are blowing water in through the vent, where will the back pressure in the tank escape? It will be pushed back towards the toilets and/or push poop up the pump-out pickup tubes. Both sound potentially fraught with trauma. What's the safest way to do this?

We shoot water from a hose up the vent lines for our holding tanks every couple of months or so. Never had a problem with the water going anywhere else but the tank and no waste goes back to the head.

We simply aim the nozzle on the hose into the vent through hulls on the side of the boat from an inch or so away. It's not a tight connection between the hose and the through hull. So if pressure did build up in the tank it can escape back out the vent line even though there's water flowing up it.

One person squirts the water up the vent line and the other listens at the tank to make sure the water's going in. It only takes a couple of seconds to do this-- either the water's going in or it isn't and it's instantly apparent which one it is. So I doubt we send enough water up the vent line to build up any pressure at all even if the hose was solidly screwed into the vent line through hull. Which of course, it isn't.

Marin said:

We shoot water from a hose up the vent lines for our holding tanks every couple of months or so. Never had a problem with the water going anywhere else but the tank and no waste goes back to the head.

We simply aim the nozzle on the hose into the vent through hulls on the side of the boat from an inch or so away. It's not a tight connection between the hose and the through hull. So if pressure did build up in the tank it can escape back out the vent line even though there's water flowing up it.

One person squirts the water up the vent line and the other listens at the tank to make sure the water's going in. It only takes a couple of seconds to do this-- either the water's going in or it isn't and it's instantly apparent which one it is. So I doubt we send enough water up the vent line to build up any pressure at all even if the hose was solidly screwed into the vent line through hull. Which of course, it isn't.

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That's the way to do it. I think holding the hose up tight to the vent could cause some surprise results.

Leave the deck cap off, or at least loose when using a hose on the vent line for no surprises.

Folks that have a buildup of waste from not rinsing the tank can use the old RV trick.

With the tank empty as you can,dump 20lbs + of ice down the waste line and go for a ride.

Stop, start and hit wakes if you can.

The motion of the ocean will brake loose lots of "stuff" .

Then fill with clean water and pump out.

FF said:

With the tank empty as you can,dump 20lbs + of ice down the waste line and go for a ride.

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I've read this idea before. I think it'd take me about 4 hours to get 20-lbs of ice into our holding tank.... one cube at a time...

-Chris

twistedtree said:

On the subject of flushing the vent line with a hose from the thru hull fitting..... if you are blowing water in through the vent, where will the back pressure in the tank escape? It will be pushed back towards the toilets and/or push poop up the pump-out pickup tubes. Both sound potentially fraught with trauma. What's the safest way to do this?

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There won't be any back pressure...please read post #24 to this thread.

HeadMistress said:

If you ever bothered to rinse out your holding tank (which should be done 2-3 x year, and especially in preparation for winter or other extended layup to clear out any sludge), there's nothing illegal about filling a tank half full of clean water and dumping it through the macerator pump...which should be done as part of rinsing out the system anyway.

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Good luck doing that in front of the harbor master or the coast guard. They find out that's coming from your holding tank and you'll be in for quite surprise.

The obvious answer to that: Don't do it in front of them! But even if you do, waste creates a big brown cloud, water doesn't...and dumping water is not illegal. So unless you run into one who has an advanced case of Barney Fife syndrome, it won't be a problem.

Sheeeeesh!

I got a crisp $100 bill for you if you will video record yourself drinking a glass full of that.

As a side note: Do you really thinks it's appropriate to be recommending illegal activities especially ones that contribute to pollution of fragile eco systems?

One more time: it is NOT illegal to dump a tank unless there's sewage in it. And there won't be in the couple of gallons you'll run through the macerator pump and plumbing if you've thoroughly rinsed it out first.

A fecal coliform bacteria count of 200/100ml meets federal water quality standards for swimming. So if you swim in coastal waters, you've ingested water that's no cleaner than the water from a tank that's been thoroughly rinsed out.

And btw...your bilge pumps contribute far more to pollution of fragile ecosystems than a few gallons of rinse water from a tank that HAD held sewage.

I'm done here.

Lol, I heard this awhile ago the solution to pollution is dilution. The **** from storm drains does more harm than mixed water and waste form flushing a tank. The stuff that comes out of our tank is about he Same color as our canal water.

A tank that has had sewage in it and flushed out still has sewage in it. Think not? Take me up on that offer.

Used for several months and dumped as needed then flushed once or twice. Record yourself drinking a big ole glass of the swill. And I will be more than happy to hand you a crisp $100 bill. And call the medics.



Still seems to me the problem was the waste was hardening due to a lack of fluids. Easy solution, flush with more water.

Crisp $100 bill? What a joke! Can't even buy a decent bag of groceries for that. You'll need to up the ante quite a bit in order to impress anyone with any sort of "challenge".

This "discussion" of the effects of pumping overboard some fresh water out of a cleaned-out holding tank is ludicrous when one considers how much crap (literally) goes into the water untreated and undiluted by all the creatures that live there. Whales, dolphins, porpoises, seals, sea lions, walruses, manatees, river and sea otters to say nothing of all the fish crapping under the water and the birds crapping into it.

In my senior year in high school outside of St. Louis, MO, another guy and I had a biology class project that involved a couple of catfish we'd gotten out of the Mississippi River or a local lake, I don't remember. They were in a 100 gallon fish tank. Our biggest challenge was keeping the water clean. We had a big filter system and we changed the filter material every other day. One day the filter system quit. We didn't find out about it until the next morning by which time you could barely see through the tank the water was so dirty. From two fish, overnight.

Peggie has probably forgotten more about marine sanitation than anyone on this forum will ever know. All this armchair theorizing BS is what makes forums like this highly entertaining but pretty much worthless if one is after truly credible information.

what_barnacles said:

Still seems to me the problem...

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Hmmm, troll questions are always classy.

I prefer to trust the advice of a professional who has forgotten more about boats and marine sanitation specifically than you or I will likely ever know...

CPseudonym said:

Hmmm, troll questions are always classy.

I prefer to trust the advice of a professional who has forgotten more about boats and marine sanitation specifically than you or I will likely ever know...

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So now you have declared me a troll. Nice.

And especially surprising since I didnt ask a question. Maybe you should look at post #6. Doesnt look like a question to me at all.

Just out of curiosity, how much has she paid you as a commercial member to gain your loyalty?

It's against the law to dump your waste tank within 3 miles of the coast. Period.

Marin said:

This "discussion" of the effects of pumping overboard some fresh water out of a cleaned-out holding tank is ludicrous when one considers how much crap (literally) goes into the water untreated and undiluted by all the creatures that live there. Whales, dolphins, porpoises, seals, sea lions, walruses, manatees, river and sea otters to say nothing of all the fish crapping under the water and the birds crapping into it.

In my senior year in high school outside of St. Louis, MO, another guy and I had a biology class project that involved a couple of catfish we'd gotten out of the Mississippi River or a local lake, I don't remember. They were in a 100 gallon fish tank. Our biggest challenge was keeping the water clean. We had a big filter system and we changed the filter material every other day. One day the filter system quit. We didn't find out about it until the next morning by which time you could barely see through the tank the water was so dirty. From two fish, overnight.

Peggie has probably forgotten more about marine sanitation than anyone on this forum will ever know. All this armchair theorizing BS is what makes forums like this highly entertaining but pretty much worthless if one is after truly credible information.

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What Marin said!!!

what_barnacles said:

So now you have declared me a troll. Nice.

And especially surprising since I didnt ask a question. Maybe you should look at post #6. Doesnt look like a question to me at all.

Just out of curiosity, how much has she paid you as a commercial member to gain your loyalty?

It's against the law to dump your waste tank within 3 miles of the coast. Period.

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Paid, Craig? LOL, you sure you're not troll?

what_barnacles said:

It's against the law to dump your waste tank within 3 miles of the coast. Period.

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Wrong. It is against the law to discharge waste within the specified distance from shore (and there are specific definitions of the different kinds of waste which affect where they can be discharged).

If I buy a brand new holding tank and fill it up with water and then dump the tank overboard in my slip, I am not breaking the law. The discharge regulations have to do with what comes out of the tank, not what it comes out of.

what_barnacles said:

So now you have declared me a troll. Nice.

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No sir, your pattern of behavior in this thread did. I merely pointed out the obvious.

what_barnacles said:

Just out of curiosity, how much has she paid you as a commercial member to gain your loyalty?

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Millions

what_barnacles said:

It's against the law to dump your waste tank within 3 miles of the coast. Period.

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Rather than doubling down on your ignorance of the subject perhaps educating yourself would be a better course of action.

Good day sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by what_barnacles
Just out of curiosity, how much has she paid you as a commercial member to gain your loyalty?

Millions

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Cool. Now you can buy that 150' Delta mega-yacht you've always wanted. As Deltas are made right here in Seattle you can make money with it and not have to worry about the Jones Act.

what_barnacles said:

So now you have declared me a troll. Nice..........Just out of curiosity, how much has she paid you as a commercial member to gain your loyalty?.....

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That`s really offensive.
1. To Peggie/Headmistress. A valued and knowledgeable contributor. You accuse her of bribery! That`s appalling.
2. To CPseudonym/Craig. Who served here for years as a conscientious totally ethical TF Lead Moderator. You accuse him of accepting her bribe! Equally appalling.
Please take time to think, before you post. Just because people disagree with you doesn`t mean they give/take bribes. Your thought process is wanting. You do read like a troll. And you have an unfortunate habit of slipping "assumptions" into your posts, as if they were established facts.

Gee, seems like someone rubbed a thin skin ...

The statement that "fecal coliform bacteria count of 200/100ml meets federal water quality standards for swimming" is specious in the context of this discussion.

That figure when applied to marine sanitation is a portion of the limitation on Type I and Type II systems. It is nice to to know if you are swimming but totally irrelevant to marine sewage discharge regulations that apply to the boats that have a Type III (holding tank) with a toilet connected to it.

The rules state very clearly that "Since Type III MSDs are mere holding tanks, the Type III must be secured in a no discharge position in all waters out to three nautical miles.

The EPA rules state that "pursuant to Coast Guard regulations, a Type III MSD must "be designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage". That "waste derived from sewage" includes rinse water or flushwater.

Any water that enters the holding tank is considered sewage. Even if a brand new holding tank is installed on your boat, if it is connected to a toilet or may receive human waste, it cannot legally be pumped overboard within 3 miles of land unless it is pumped to a shore discharge connection. Even the act of opening the Y valve is not permitted.

Like it or not, rinsing a sewage tank merely creates more wastewater that is "derived from sewage" and is no different under the law than raw sewage. If you want to rinse your holding tank and lines, fine, but pumping it into the sea within 3 miles of the US coastline is illegal.

What is the purpose of "rinsing" anyway? Rinsing is intended to remove sewage from the plumbing and pump that if left will clog the system ... well, duh, in other words it is pumping residual sewage. What do you think the water cop will say when you claim you are not really pumping your MSD over the side, you are just "rinsing residual sewage so it doesn't harden up and clog the pipes." I am sure that will get you off the hook right away. I don't doubt the judge will get a good laugh out of it.

The regulations are very clear, easy to find, and the application of a bit of common sense will support the argument that it is not a duty of law enforcement to determine if you are pumping sewage or Perrier into the marina. If the Y valve is open and your holding tank discharge pump is running, you are pumping sewage.

The water cops don't need to count fecal coliform bacteria to charge you with an offense and "but Peggy said" is no defense.

what_barnacles said:

It's against the law to dump your waste tank within 3 miles of the coast. Period.

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The actual wording is important: it's about "waste."

That's not necessarily the same thing as "contents of waste tank."

RickB said:

The EPA rules state that "pursuant to Coast Guard regulations, a Type III MSD must "be designed to prevent the overboard discharge of treated or untreated sewage or any waste derived from sewage". That "waste derived from sewage" includes rinse water or flushwater.


Any water that enters the holding tank is considered sewage. Even if a brand new holding tank is installed on your boat, if it is connected to a toilet or may receive human waste, it cannot legally be pumped overboard within 3 miles of land unless it is pumped to a shore discharge connection. Even the act of opening the Y valve is not permitted.

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Haven't ever seen wording like that. Willing to be educated; USCG or EPA sources for that verbiage?


-Chris

RickB said:

Gee, seems like someone rubbed a thin skin ...

The statement that "fecal coliform bacteria count of 200/100ml meets federal water quality standards for swimming" is specious in the context of this discussion. ..............................

edited for space

The water cops don't need to count fecal coliform bacteria to charge you with an offense and "but Peggy said" is no defense.

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I posted last night then deleted as I figured most here don't consider me a pro as I don't publish in civilian circles....and it's often ridiculous to continue after the wagons are circled.

What I posted then deleted is essentially...dilution IS the issue and if enough waste is left in a tank after pumpout due to construction...it may take more than one rinse to really meet even the intent of the law. Exactly what Rick is saying and also what_ barnacles was saying.


Especially to meet the standard of many squeamish members here who think even treated waste is a crime in many waters.

For essentially being correct...he is sure getting a lot of flak just because he disagrees.

ranger42c said:

The actual wording is important: it's about "untreated waste."

That's not necessarily the same thing as "contents of waste tank."

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That is precisely the point ... the contents of the holding tank in a Type III MSD are "untreated waste." There is no bacterial level defined that is acceptable for discharging a Type III system within 3 miles of the coast. The regs state in language almost anyone can understand ... it is illegal to "dump" a holding tank within 3 miles of the coast.

You can flush it or rinse it all you want, the law states that it is illegal to even open the Y valve or overboard discharge within 3 miles of the coast.

All the rules about treated sewage apply to Type I and Type II MSDs. The rule that applies to Type III MSDs (holding tank) is very clear, you can't legally discharge anything from it within 3 miles of the coast. Any flushing or rinse water in or from that tank is sewage or "derived from sewage."

Even the guru of fecal matter said "Don't do it in front of them!" Now, if it were legal then there would be no problem "dumping" your holding tank at the water cop dock in broad daylight would there? There is no wording in the law that allows the discharge of clear or invisible stuff within 3 miles of the coast or limits the application of the law to visible clouds of brown stuff.

In these refs:


Marine Sanitation Devices | Vessel Water Discharge | US EPA


USCG Systems Engineering Division (CG-ENG-3)


I don't see a prohibition about dumping MSD III contents, just "treated or untreated waste" or "waste derived from sewage."


I don't see wording that equates water in a holding tank to sewage (treated or untreated) or waste derived from sewage.


??


-Chris

Here is some of the "language" the USCG uses that was put out by the State of California......

Federal Marine Sanitation Device Regulations

2. Should I go flowthrough or no-discharge?
There are two varieties of marine sanitation equipment. One variety treats the waste and then discharges it into the water (Type I or Type II). The second retains the waste onboard or treats it in a manner which does not result in any discharge into the water (Type III). This includes holding tanks, recirculators and incinerators. You should investigate the area in which you will be operating to determine whether it is a no-discharge or discharge area. Then you can decide on discharge or no-discharge equipment. There are two types of no-discharge areas: Federal, and state or local. Federal regulations prohibiting discharges apply either to a class of waters (see note) or to specific waters (contact your regional EPA office for exact areas). State and local prohibition areas are controlled by the state boating authority or local police. If you are operating in a no-discharge area, check on the availability of pumpout facilities. You can then decide on either retention equipment which will require periodic pumpout, or incinerating equipment which does not. If you operate in both discharge and no-discharge zones, you may want to combine a Type I or Type II unit with Type III equipment to give the necessary flexibility.
3. What about capacity?
The Coast Guard does not have specific capacity standards for all vessels. When you are selecting equipment, be sure to choose a system with adequate capacity for your needs. Look at the maximum number of persons that will be aboard your vessel, including guests, and select accordingly. When choosing retention or recirculating devices, be sure to provide sufficient capacity between pumpouts for your cruising needs. Remember that it is illegal to pump the contents of a holding tank overboard in U.S. waters.

otherwise...just random dilution would allow me to make a homemade (not USCG certified) treatment system if it met the fecal count...and of course I can't do that.

or if JUST dilution was necessary....if you flooded a holding tank full of sea water, macerated it, and the tank pumped itself out after each flush... that would be a great cheap, reliable treatment system...but it's not the intent.

Again...I don't have a problem with the rinse and dump...but my guess many do and would expect LEOs to enforce it if they knew...which would be really hard but still the intent of the law. There is probably as much fecal coliform making its way into the water from shower sumps as a pumped out holding tank.