Prairie 29 engines

Hi,
I'm new to the site but old to sailing, boating and cruising...about 60 years worth. This looks like a knowledgeable group, so I have a question.
One boat on my short list is the Prairie 29 and I see a variety of engines in the ones that are for sale. It appears to me that about 85-100 hp would be right. I'm accustomed to sailing auxiliaries but expect a bit more performance from a powerboat.
Of the original powerplants, is the Perkins 4-108 adequate? It's rated at 50hp when screaming wide open but is really a 35hp engine, and that seems pretty anemic for a boat the size and weight of the 29.
Will the 4-108 push a Prairie 29 above six knots? Will it made decent headway into seas like the 3-4 foot chop on the Chesapeake when it's blowing 15 knots?
Thanks for any info.
-- Tom

85+ hp sounds high for that boat. It is a full displacement hull weighing in at about 15,000 lbs fully loaded. That should only take 25 hp to push it to its hull speed which is probably about 7 kts. If you want to cruise at 6 kts, it will probably take only 15 hp. Heading into a 3-4' chop and maintaining 6 kts is probably going to take 30 hp.


The Westerbeke 4-108 would work but I agree with you it is a little small at 1.7 liters. I would like to see about 2 liters. The 4 cylinder Yanmar JH engine would be perfect.


David

Yea, the 108 will do the job, but I would like something a little bigger that would not be straining or spooled up at hull speed. Problem is, not many engine offerings in that range. New Yanmar JH would be great, but pricey to install.

Try to arrange a test run on the 29 and see if it is pleasant to cruise or not.

For reference, my 36' 15,000 lb sailboat has a westerbeke 46. I can run all day at 7 knots at 2,000 rpms on flat water. In rough weather I have to push the rpms up to 2,500 or so to stay at 6.8-7 knots. At WOT (3,000 rpms) I can get a bit over eight knots on flat water.

Also, my 32'8" 10,000 lb cruiser has a volvo-penta D2-40 (39.6 hp). It pushes the boat at 7 knots at 2,000 rpms and 5.6 at 1,500. At 3,100 I get a bit over 9 knots. 2,000 rpms will punch me through a pretty hefty chop at around 6 knots, but the boat does have a very fine entry.

tomdove said:

Hi,
I'm new to the site but old to sailing, boating and cruising...about 60 years worth. This looks like a knowledgeable group, so I have a question.
One boat on my short list is the Prairie 29 and I see a variety of engines in the ones that are for sale. It appears to me that about 85-100 hp would be right. I'm accustomed to sailing auxiliaries but expect a bit more performance from a powerboat.
Of the original powerplants, is the Perkins 4-108 adequate? It's rated at 50hp when screaming wide open but is really a 35hp engine, and that seems pretty anemic for a boat the size and weight of the 29.
Will the 4-108 push a Prairie 29 above six knots? Will it made decent headway into seas like the 3-4 foot chop on the Chesapeake when it's blowing 15 knots?
Thanks for any info.
-- Tom

Click to expand...

Tom
Can't say if it will go to much over 7 kts at WOT. I have an Atlantic 30 (same hull as the prairie 29) with a TAMD40B Volvo 160 hp. Way to much motor-cruise between 6 and 7.5 knots at1800 rpm-depending on conditions. WOT is 10 knots (3000rpm) and the fuel tanks calapse. Very quiet and smooth at 1800rpm. Went a little over 400 miles on my delivery cruise on 140 gals. loaded down. Running between 1600 and 2000rpm. Doesn't like seas over 3 ft. If over 3 ft you will abandon the fly bridge. For a coastal cruiser 4-108 is adequate. Although I think a 80 to 100 hp engine would be my preference for motoring in open water.

I suspect the Prarie 29 is not a FD boat and probably needs 60 or 70hp.

My FD Willard 30 of 8 tons disp was powered propperly w a Perkins 4-107. Plenty of power. 36hp. So if the Prarie is FD the 36hp Perky will do her fine. More power would be a waste and require the boat to be run underloaded.

But I don't think they are FD.

My Prairie has the Perkins 4.236 85 Hp engine. If you look on the other prairie threads, especially the one about prop size and engine size you will see that there is nothing that will make these prairies get up and go.
And I concur. You will realize that you won't want to be out in any more than 3'. I have been out in 5 to 6 and didn't much care for it. The old girl didn't care for it either. I cracked the side of the house in that. The PO installed a 'seatbelt' at the lower helm. I didn't understand the installation until I got out off Nobska Point in 4' on the beam. Snap, roll, snap, roll. They are great calm water, intercoastal. river, protected water boats. Unless you have the time to wait for weather windows; If you're on a time and strict schedule then you should look at other boats that can get up on plane and get out of the weather quick.


Regarding your query about headway, I think any of these engines would make headway. The question is: Would you want to be out there in that? This is a 29 hull. Not a 40.


Regarding engines, I don't have one, but I think the 4/108s are considered almost impossible to find parts/have rebuilt. The 4/236 is readily rebuildable, and lots of spare parts.


Here's two more for your perusal. https://newlondon.craigslist.org/boa/5087353669.html


http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/boa/5103939413.html


IIRC, there's one around Pensacola on YW for sale also. There was one sporadically in Tybee I Ga for sale. But I can't find the listing now.


Just so you know, the Atlantic 30 is the same hull with slightly different and layout finish inside. And the Campion 300 or 310 is the same hull also but way lower build quality.

Eric-- Here is a shot of a Prairie 29 on a Travelift. Draw your own conclusions.

Excellent information and very helpful. Keep it coming and thanks much, guys.

The boat I'm looking at tomorrow is the one in the slings in Marin's photo. It's on Kent Island near my home now but I saw it for sale in Florida last Spring. The engine has had quite a bit of work done on it recently, so parts must not be too hard to get.

I saw another Prairie 29 in Deale MD a couple of months ago but it had some issues I wasn't going to deal with, including delamination in parts of the deck and some serious hatch/window leaks.

The Prairie hull is not as narrow and fine-lined as the Willard or a typical sailboat, so it must take a bit more oomph to drive, hence my question about power. I sold my 33' sailboat last summer after 34 years with her because a neck injury limits my flexibility now, thus the trawler search. Loved that boat and cruised the East coast from Nantucket to Florida with her.

And I no longer "do" rough weather or set schedules. Been there, done that, got the bruises ;-)

Another candidate is the Cape Dory 28, which is semi-displacement and a different sort of critter. That one clearly needs more power to reach its potential.

-- Tom

Tom:


I owned a gasoline powered Cape Dory 28 for several years. CD originally built them with three engines: the 275 hp Chrysler gasser like mine and a couple of diesels- the 100 hp Westerbeke and the 200 hp Volvo. Some have been repowered with diesels and the best of that lot is with the Yanmar 220 hp engine.


The Westerbeke effectively makes it a displacement speed cruiser of about 6.5 kts with the capability to push that up to 10 at wot. With the 200+ hp engines you can cruise at 12+ kts. But realize it is a semi-displacement, downeast style hull and it takes a lot of horsepower to push it.


I liked that boat very much. It had a great cruising layout. They sell in the mid 20s for the gasser or Westerbeke and 30 and upwards for the 200+ hp diesels.


David

tomdove said:

The boat I'm looking at tomorrow is the one in the slings in Marin's photo. It's on Kent Island near my home now but I saw it for sale in Florida last Spring. The engine has had quite a bit of work done on it recently, so parts must not be too hard to get.


Another candidate is the Cape Dory 28, which is semi-displacement and a different sort of critter. That one clearly needs more power to reach its potential.

-- Tom

Click to expand...

I suspect this is the boat you are looking at...Here's a full video log of their trip from FL to MD when sold last year. Apparently it is again on the market from recent posts and was reported on Kent Island.
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s34/final-voyage-mischief-14997.html

On the CD 28, Mine runs the 200 hp Volvo. Seems overpowered on the surface, but will hit 16 knots WOT. I typically cruise at 2K at 7.5 knots with plenty in reserve. As David points out it takes a lot of power to get much beyond that and pushes a lot of water in that 10-12KN range. Hull forms look similar. We like ours a lot. I personally prefer it's layout/design over the Prairie's. Lots of wood inside, and a quality build. Very nice ones seem to be in the $50K + range. Not a big water boat though (neither is the Prairie)...but likely more comfortable on the Chesapeake than it is here on the Pamlico when things kick up.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...981/New-Bedford/MA/United-States#.Vb4t33nD_IU


Here's another one to peruse. This is the Atlantic version.




Regarding CD28, compared to the Prairie.
I passed a CD28 in the Delaware bay last spring. I struck up a conversation with the operator. I asked him about the seakindliness. He stated: When there are anymore than 2 people up on the flybridge makes her tender. I have had 5 adults on the FB of my prairie. Not an issue. (but, I don't go out in rough weather up there)


He had nothing but good news about running his CD28 in weather from down below. I have learned with my prairie, I can't outrun weather. I can't be comfortable in it. So I wait. Life it too short to have to beat my brains out.


It seems to me that the CD28 is quite a lot narrower than the Prairie 10' versus 12'. I have not been aboard a CD 28. But it just looks not as roomy. This is a big selling point with my admiral. Enough room to get comfy, and still fits on my mooring (that has a 36' size limit.)


BTW, I'm a recovering WAFI as well. Takes a while to realize I don't have to hoist sails or furl them anymore!

cappy208 said:

It seems to me that the CD28 is quite a lot narrower than the Prairie. I have not been aboard a CD 28. But is just looks not as roomy.

Click to expand...

Yes...at under 10' they're a little skinny. Admiral and I like the space though. Just the right size for us and how we use the boat.
Ex sailboater here too...Seems about the same interior space as our old Bristol 35.5.
Everything is a trade off in some respects..



More interior shots here:
http://public.fotki.com/ttschwing/cape-dory-28-trawler/interior/

a prettier more classic look methinks, but I'm biased!

The best selling point about a trawler (for the admiral) was that she can sit UP, in the salon, be reading a book and look out, see whats happening, and keep the vitaminD going. She was getting pretty fed up with being down a 4 step companionway, 3' below the waterline, with three slits for windows that she couldn't see out anyway.

I was looking forward to running a boat at appriximately the same speed as a sailboat, with no work involved. WITH enough water to take a shower, WITH hot water, With a fridge and an actual stove that could cook something.

The AC, microwave and an actual head that doesn't smell is a bonus. (oh yeah, having a deck that is flat when ON the head is a real bonus too.)

Many in the Willard world have rebuilt the old Perkins so parts apparently aren't a problem.
I passed on the rebuild as all indications were that it was to be so costly a new little tractor engine made better sense. I liked the proper glow plugs too.

Re the Cape Dory v/s the P-29 the beamy Prairie makes a lot of sense as space aboard a boat relative to the length is good economics w today's moorage costs.

I was repeating comments I have read both on TF and other forums about the 4.108 being difficult to find block,liner, piston, gaskets, bearings for. Or was it the 4.154? Too many possibilities.

It appears the 4.108, 4.154, 4.236 are more readily available. I have even found several rebuilders on Ebay who will rebuild a 4/236 for 5k. You just have to ship it to them and reinstall it.

manyboats said:

Re the Cape Dory v/s the P-29 the beamy Prairie makes a lot of sense as space aboard a boat relative to the length is good economics w today's moorage costs.

Click to expand...

I suppose if you're looking for Cubic feet per billed slip footage I guess that reasoning works. This has never been what attracted me to my (or any) boat though.
Guess the sailboat guys are getting hosed...

cappy,
The 4-107 has sleeves .. The 108 does not.
Better off w the 108 as the O ring sealed sleeves tend to leak on older engines. One of the reasons I bailed on mine.


Heron,
And about the beamy boats .. w a FD boat another foot of beam will require almost nothing to power. SD is not like that at all.
Bigger boat can be had with almost no increase in fuel burn or moorage costs. As long as no more speed is sought.

manyboats said:

Heron,
And about the beamy boats .. w a FD boat another foot of beam will require almost nothing to power. SD is not like that at all.
Bigger boat can be had with almost no increase in fuel burn or moorage costs. As long as no more speed is sought.

Click to expand...

LOL...If I had a Manatee or a houseboat I'd feel like I was scamming the system!

It is weight, much more than beam that affects power required. But with more beam, goes more weight.


David

djmarchand said:

It is weight, much more than beam that affects power required. But with more beam, goes more weight.


David

Click to expand...

Yeah...the CD28 is only 8500 lbs...
I think the Westerbeke 100 option would have been about perfect but they seem pretty rare (with only 220 total built), but it seems more were built with the 200 hp Volvo..I would have bought the boat either way as it punches most of my buttons...

Mines been re-powered with a newer Volvo "P" model. I can't complain!

I completely muffed that comment up. It appears the 4.108 and 4.236 are parts galore. The 4.154 is the odd man out for parts and availability.

David,
Indeed yes .... but still not as much as a SD or planing. The worst of the worst is a really heavy and fat planing or SD boat.

One of the really beneficial features of older boats. Lighter (made of wood) and narrower. Also they lacked lots of trinkets like gen sets ... = weight.

Heron,

Beautiful CD 28 and a very pretty interior. I've looked at two (one with the Volvo 200 and one with the Westerbeke 100) and they were pretty shabby. The Prairie I looked over also looked kinda shabby. That's a turnoff for my XYL (Wife), especially when it's combined with basic "red flags" that I detect.

You've done something really nice to the teak. What is it? A cleaner, varnish, some magic elixir, fanatic scrubbing with a toothbrush?

-- Tom

cappy208 said:

I completely muffed that comment up. It appears the 4.108 and 4.236 are parts galore. The 4.154 is the odd man out for parts and availability.

Click to expand...

I think you're right, Cappy. That's what led to Al changing out his 4.154 for a 4.236 recently.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/upgrade-perkins-4-236-4-154-a-21286.html

I love my 4.236's. No parts problems and (knock on wood) not much need for them either! Yes, I had to replace the exhaust elbows and flanges but I knew that when I bought the boat. Oh...and a manifold on the stbd side.

In my zeal to clean the manifold gasket area, I thought I'd try to chip away a little carbon buildup that was visible. The tool slipped and I punched a hole in the wall separating the raw water from the exhaust gasses. It was all part of a bigger repair project that got submitted to the insurance company, Zurich. Thanks to my insurance coverage, costs were covered so it turned out to be a good-but-not-expensive lesson.

The whole experience sort of transpired like this...

tomdove said:

Heron,

Beautiful CD 28 and a very pretty interior. I've looked at two (one with the Volvo 200 and one with the Westerbeke 100) and they were pretty shabby. The Prairie I looked over also looked kinda shabby. That's a turnoff for my XYL (Wife), especially when it's combined with basic "red flags" that I detect.

You've done something really nice to the teak. What is it? A cleaner, varnish, some magic elixir, fanatic scrubbing with a toothbrush?

-- Tom

Click to expand...

Thanks! The interior is original '88 vintage from what I can determine, with maybe a coat of varnish to refresh. The boat was well cared for. Exterior is seatol..
Good ones are out there, but expect to pay $$$. Check Yachtworld. I found mine locally before it hit the brokers and feel lucky there. Nicely equipped (AC, AP, Bow thruster, Radar etc.), Nicely maintained...all for below market..
All my albums on improvements and mods since buying it in November:
http://public.fotki.com/ttschwing/cape-dory-28-trawler/

@FlyWright: How did you loosen the flanges up? Mine is fairly solid now. But until I ran it for 20 hours it blew gas past. I see it is 4 or 5 bolts into the back of the heat exchanger. Did you use heat, pblaster or just torque? or all of the above. That's another thing on my list sometime.....


However, I'm not so sure It should be battened down. The pipe coming out of it is over a foot long. Quite a lever arm to vibrate. Maybe 'loose' is not a bad thing. I wrapped it tightly in fiberglass exhaust wrap. Hasn't been bad since. Hate to make a bigger issue than it is.

cappy208 said:

@FlyWright: How did you loosen the flanges up? Mine is fairly solid now. But until I ran it for 20 hours it blew gas past. I see it is 4 or 5 bolts into the back of the heat exchanger. Did you use heat, pblaster or just torque? or all of the above. That's another thing on my list sometime.....


However, I'm not so sure It should be battened down. The pipe coming out of it is over a foot long. Quite a lever arm to vibrate. Maybe 'loose' is not a bad thing. I wrapped it tightly in fiberglass exhaust wrap. Hasn't been bad since. Hate to make a bigger issue than it is.

Click to expand...

Four bolts on the corners on mine. PB Blaster and a socket wrench, but they weren't hard to remove. The exhaust manifold was more problematic.

Got a pic of your exhaust plumbing aft of the exhaust elbow? Mine has a flexible elbow to connect to the fiberglass exhaust plumbing.

this is looking down from top. Flange, 2" street el, 14" galv pipe, 2" street el, then water injection which is just out of sight to right. The black hose goes to injection elbow with a t to pss.

And yes. That IS carpet on the deck! Makes for quite a civilized oil change! Which reminds me. The best thing I did was to install a Kwik Valve on the engine. I had to buy their adapter/extension to let valve clear oil pan ribs. But WELL worth it. I'll have to get a pic of that next time I go down to boat. IIRC that was 35 bucks for both. Very easy oil change. Clean and neat.

Hi, guys

My reaction to the 4-108 in a Prairie-29 is the same as most: Sounds like it might be underpowered, but I haven't been on one, so it's just a guess.

I just acquired a -29 with a Perkins 6-354T, 200 hp. It's a big, heavy lump of iron, in an already heavy boat, so it's definitely no speed demon. But, it'll do 7-1/2 knots at 1400 rpm which makes it very quiet. I don't know the fuel burn yet. I brought her up from Mystic CT to the Narragansett Bay at 8-1/2 knots at 4 gph over a 7-1/2 hour run. I don't know the RPM we were using because the tachometer wasn't working (among other things).

This boat was shorn of 'er flying bridge for some reason. It's OK with me, as I prefer the inner wheel house, with the ability to spread a proper chart, etc. So, right now I'm organizing all the little "to-do" items that need attending to.

I don't know enough of the history of the boat to know if it was built with the 6-354. If it was, then whoever did the upgrade did a proper job, as the shaft, wheel, stern tube, etc were all upgraded. It appears to be "over-propped" because it has too much prop to reach 2500 rpm, and blows black smoke when it's in the corner. But, it allows cruising at a lower rpm with lower noise and fuel burn, so for the moment at least, I'm happy.

It may be an old lump of iron, but it runs OK, doesn't leak (which is unusual for Perkins' of this vintage) and runs quieter than a Cummins B-series.

Only about 20 hours on 'er so far, plus the 1300+ on the clock.

Onward!

J.S.