Shoulda, coulda, woulda...

cappy208 · Jul 31, 2015

Another reminisce came back to mind that occurred when I was winnowing down my criteria for a purchase.

I was at a yachtclub invasion with my Niece and Nephew. Walking down the dock I spied an old Mainship 34 Mklll. I had considered them, but they always seemed 'so old' that I wouldn't want one.

Then I met the older couple onboard. They invited my wife and I aboard. It was so obvious that they could overlook the spider cracks in the gelcoat, the soft decks in spots, and the tired engine. They were having an absolute ball with their old boat. I realized that the amount of 'shiny flashy stuff' means something to others, and less to me.

It really is about what You want in a boat. And how CDO you are in accepting whats out there. (that's OCD in alphabetical order)

Besslb · Jul 31, 2015

Baker said:
PS...Tom and Bess....you might look at a 355 or 356. A lot of boat for the money and you will have your speed if you want it.

Been ogling over a 450.....a little over our budget and luckily is under contract now!!

(not by us)

BandB · Jul 31, 2015

Well, one of our problems is that it doesn't matter how many boats we own, we'll always see more that we'd like to have.

However, I think our key was approaching it very businesslike.

Phase I of any project of this magnitude is defining the requirements. What do we want to get out of the boat, how do we intend to use it. Phase I is general requirements.

Phase II is then more specific requirements. Phase I might say, ourselves plus one couple and occasionally a second couple. Phase II would say two or three cabins. Phase I might say outside living area, but Phase II might say flybridge. Phase I might say, capable of doing the loop, but Phase II would have both draft and air draft limitations. While Phase I might include where we wanted to go, Phase II might narrow hull material down.

Phase III was to compare boats to our requirements. This was extensive spread sheets. We put hundreds of boats on the spreadsheets over time. On all those boats we evaluated them in around 40 areas. This included specifications like gallons per nm or nm per gallon at multiple speeds or WOT speed or Cruising speed or range, but it also included comments like for Galley "Upper galley. Very nice. L shaped plus island. Very open.

Now this sounds tedious but it really wasn't because we were looking at hundreds of boats on line and many in person. We read hundreds of reviews, found tests.

That brings us to Phase IV which is narrow down to a few leading contenders.

Then Phase V was further due diligence. This is where chartering came in big for us, as well as some demo rides. We chartered 9 boats and took rides on 6 others over time. This was in searching for more than one boat. Also some of the charters weren't for determining what to buy but waiting for it.

Every boat is a compromise but a key to us was being sure we could live or could not live with the compromise. Some were things we knew from the beginning and others we only became aware of during the process. Many of these things are fine for others and aren't inherently bad, just not for us. A couple of examples. In a cruising boat for us must be Galley Up. (Day boat fine down). Minimum cruising speed really was established during chartering. We were just not happy at 8, 10, or 12 knots. 15 was minimal and 20 became the target. And here's a quirky one. No ladders, only steps between decks. We know people are happy all the time with ladders to the bridge, but we just couldn't be comfortable. Now that doesn't mean you can't but with a ladder and change it.

Last, if the boat doesn't fit, you must admit. You can't force things. You can't mandate a timetable. We've all learned the negatives of schedules in cruising. Well, they're negative in selecting a boat as well. Our longest to date was from first looking until delivery 2 years, and we're normally people who move quickly. But we haven't yet purchased the boat that will come closest to fitting in here and we've been at this now approaching 3 years. This is the boat we'll use to do the loop and inland rivers. We've come close to a selection, but something would lead us away from each. We came very close to a custom build but then some ownership changes in the builder changed that. Finally, we're down again to two boats. One wasn't even available when we started and the other was on our list from day one.

I know our method sounds a bit dismissive of the personal side and emotional side of things, but it wasn't. Our spreadsheets include words like fugly. You can imagine with my wife there are some colorful descriptions of aspects of boats. Things like "Kitchen by K-Mart" and "I don't think that's real wood. No tree could grow s... that ugly." Or this one on a boat we did purchase, "Old maidish and not sexy at all on the outside, looks just like a bazillion others, but it sure does work inside. Wish it had curvy lines and a real figure but then it wouldn't have all the space and once you're on it, the decks and such are what's important, plus the outside won't get old. It already is. I mean like lot's of other boats look the same but that might just be because it works so freaking well. I'm more than cool with it."

We've been happy with what we've chosen to this point. We credit the process.

Art · Jul 31, 2015

Gosh BB - That's the longest breath (breadth) to still say "compromise" - LOL Art

Baker · Jul 31, 2015

Besslb said:
Been ogling over a 450.....a little over our budget and luckily is under contract now!! (not by us)

Just be careful. When they get that big, if you want to plane, that fuel consumption starts getting pretty crazy. Also in the Carvers, if that is what you were talking about, they get that big and they started running out of engine options. For some reason they didn't use Cats. Cummins ended with the C series at 450hp Which should be enough to power a 45 footer(not familiar with a 450 or I am forgetting). Then the Volvos took over in the middle of the decade.

Pineapple Girl · Jul 31, 2015

we've been perfectly happy with our 35 foot sundeck for the past five years, until we looked at a 40' Europa. We like the one level cockpit and salon vs all the steps and the raised aft deck on ours. However the tradeoff is that tall ladder to the flybridge. We'd love a pilot house but most are way larger boats than we need or want to maintain.

Besslb · Jul 31, 2015

Pineapple Girl said:
we've been perfectly happy with our 35 foot sundeck for the past five years, until we looked at .....

That's where it starts!!

Our insurance guy accused me of "lusting after another man's boat". It was true, I'll admit it.

BandB · Jul 31, 2015

Art said:
Gosh BB - That's the longest breath (breadth) to still say "compromise" - LOL Art

Wifey B: Well, he can be funny, but for real that's the process we did it. Obsessive a bit perhaps, but I've learned his methods work. Better than me spotting one and just saying, "Oooh..ohhh...ohhh....that's hot....I want one of those". With that method, we'd have a Fountain or Nortech probably.

Hawgwash · Jul 31, 2015

Art said:
I recommend you look at some Tollycraft boats./QUOTE]

Ah yes, Tollycraft.
I have a couple of Tolly tales:

Gorgeous May long weekend, early eighties.
The only 2 boats in the world, rafted on the hook in the mid morning stillness and gentle mist of Chatterbox Falls, Princess Louisa Inlet.

The silence is compromised by a distant drone of reverberating, synced twins that grew and became amplified by steep surrounding mountains. We watched and waited for 10 maybe 15 minutes until, out from behind Hamilton Island appeared a giant arced bow wave followed by an as yet unknown boat; flat out WOT galloping like the lead horse in the Oklahoma Land Grab.

An amazing feast of sight and sound.
Tollycraft!
One of the first non commercial boats built specifically for the coastal waters north of the Columbia River.

This was the new owners first significant cruise out of the Seattle area, I don't recall just where and as he later related, conditions begged him, for the first time, to shove those throttles as far forward as they could go.

In the mid eighties, before the Kelso plant was sold I asked and was given permission to have my PS class tour the facility. "Tolly" himself was there and I don't recall ever seeing a grin as big as his that day.

I've always liked the Tolly but for one reason or another haven't kept it at the top of any list. Although "four fifty four" is a significant deterrent when pondering a six buck gallon. The 40 in Princess Louisa, with crusaders, hit 48 GPH on that gallop. I've owned other boats with 454s and I could watch the needle fall.
Restraint is not my best quality.

Baker · Jul 31, 2015

Pineapple Girl said:
we've been perfectly happy with our 35 foot sundeck for the past five years, until we looked at a 40' Europa. We like the one level cockpit and salon vs all the steps and the raised aft deck on ours. However the tradeoff is that tall ladder to the flybridge. We'd love a pilot house but most are way larger boats than we need or want to maintain.

Yep....I am ultimately a sedan/Europa type of person. But you take a HUGE hit in living space and there are almost no planing sedans. Yes the newer GB Europas plane but they are WAY out of my price range. So what I am left with in a planing sedan is a sport fish. Nothing necessarily wrong with them. But again, if I go older, I am stuck with big detroits. Newer, I am stuck with a big price tag. Also, I really don't mind the 2000ish vintage Sea Ray Sedan Bridges. Not inherently ugly boats and usually Cat power...3416s I think. But in the end, I would end up paying almost four times what I paid for my current boat and my current boat is doing pretty well for me. There is also newer Carver sedans but I just can't hack their appearance. They are hideous....sorry if anyone is offended by that...just an opinion. And they are usually Volvo powered. Meridian made a good sedan. And Silverton made a decent convertible....it was really more cruiser than sport fish...swim platform and all. So in the "trawler" style, there are not a lot of choices when it comes to planing sedan. I guess the Sabre and Eastbays too but again, you are getting pricey!!! And they sacrifice space for beauty!!!....as does the GB Europa!! The Sabres and Eastbays and GB Europas are some of the prettiest boats made. BUT...you sacrifice space for that beauty...money too.

PS....the speed thing is just personal to me...and I am just rambling on here. I will slow down in retirement. Until then....

Baker · Jul 31, 2015

BandB said:
Wifey B: Well, he can be funny, but for real that's the process we did it. Obsessive a bit perhaps, but I've learned his methods work. Better than me spotting one and just saying, "Oooh..ohhh...ohhh....that's hot....I want one of those". With that method, we'd have a Fountain or Nortech probably.

I still have no clue what type of boat or boats y'all have...

Hawgwash · Jul 31, 2015

Pineapple Girl said:
we've been perfectly happy with our 35 foot sundeck for the past five years, until we looked at a 40' Europa. We like the one level cockpit and salon vs all the steps and the raised aft deck on ours. However the tradeoff is that tall ladder to the flybridge. We'd love a pilot house but most are way larger boats than we need or want to maintain.

Compromises.
I am right with you on everything you just said and I have a strong suspicion I just may sacrifice some tight anchorages, for a pilot house. We'll see.

MurrayM · Jul 31, 2015

Hawgwash said:
...and I have a strong suspicion I just may sacrifice some tight anchorages, for a pilot house. We'll see.

While not proclaiming to be an expert, stern tying has gotten us squeezed into some pretty tight spots. The tightest so far was in McMicking Inlet, Campania Island, on BC's north coast.

It was so tight there was a danger of our boat rubbing on rocks at low tide with a wind pushing from one side, so we dinghied out a smaller second anchor, and dropped it on the stern quarter of the windward side. (We were gone hiking for most of the days, so wouldn't be there to tighten & loosen sternlines as the 17 foot tides moved in and out).

The bow and amidship anchors limited Badger's movements to pretty much the vertical plane, and we could be gone all day without worrying.

Still working up the nerve to try tying to trees in a narrow cleft in rockwalls / shoreline without using an anchor at all...gives me butterfies in the guts just thinking about it

Art · Jul 31, 2015

Hawgwash said:
Art said:

I recommend you look at some Tollycraft boats./QUOTE]

Ah yes, Tollycraft.
I have a couple of Tolly tales:

Gorgeous May long weekend, early eighties.
The only 2 boats in the world, rafted on the hook in the mid morning stillness and gentle mist of Chatterbox Falls, Princess Louisa Inlet.

The silence is compromised by a distant drone of reverberating, synced twins that grew and became amplified by steep surrounding mountains. We watched and waited for 10 maybe 15 minutes until, out from behind Hamilton Island appeared a giant arced bow wave followed by an as yet unknown boat; flat out WOT galloping like the lead horse in the Oklahoma Land Grab.

An amazing feast of sight and sound.
Tollycraft!
One of the first non commercial boats built specifically for the coastal waters north of the Columbia River.

This was the new owners first significant cruise out of the Seattle area, I don't recall just where and as he later related, conditions begged him, for the first time, to shove those throttles as far forward as they could go.

In the mid eighties, before the Kelso plant was sold I asked and was given permission to have my PS class tour the facility. "Tolly" himself was there and I don't recall ever seeing a grin as big as his that day.

I've always liked the Tolly but for one reason or another haven't kept it at the top of any list. Although "four fifty four" is a significant deterrent when pondering a six buck gallon. The 40 in Princess Louisa, with crusaders, hit 48 GPH on that gallop. I've owned other boats with 454s and I could watch the needle fall.
Restraint is not my best quality.

Click to expand...

Go for 34' 37' 40' 44' 45' or 48' Tolly with diesels. 34'ers were all gas (I think)... some repowered with diesel. Ours gets pretty good mileage on twin 350 gassers at just below hull/7.58 knots... at approx. 7 knots it gets 2 + nmpg. Cruising with a single running... 5 knot speed - near 3 nmpg. Full plane at 16 to 17 knots... 1 nmpg. WOT... OMG nmpg!!

GPH Boating Daze! - Art

Hawgwash · Jul 31, 2015

MurrayM said:
While not proclaiming to be an expert, stern tying has gotten us squeezed into some pretty tight spots. The tightest so far was in McMicking Inlet, Campania Island, on BC's north coast.

It was so tight there was a danger of our boat rubbing on rocks at low tide with a wind pushing from one side, so we dinghied out a smaller second anchor, and dropped it on the stern quarter of the windward side. (We were gone hiking for most of the days, so wouldn't be there to tighten & loosen the sternlines as the 17 foot tides moved in and out).

The bow and amidship anchors limited Badger's movements to pretty much the vertical plane, and we could be gone all day without worrying.

Still working up the nerve to try tying to trees in a narrow cleft in the rockwall / shoreline without using an anchor at all...gives me butterfies in the guts just thinking about it

Oh, I don't know Murray. The way you figured that one out and could go off for the day sounds pretty expertish to me. Don't you just love 17 foot tides?

The compromise I was getting at was not so much the tight quarters inside an anchorage but the ones getting into them. If you have access to CHS 3535 (inset 2), take a close look at the entrance to Smugglers Cove. A great example of many nooks and crannies between Vancouver and AK.

Hawgwash · Jul 31, 2015

Art said:
Go for 34' 37' 40' 44' 45' or 48' Tolly with diesels. 34'ers were all gas (I think)... some repowered with diesel.

In these parts almost all of them 40 and under were/are gas, from what I've seen. That makes for some exceptional buys, but not for me.

MurrayM · Jul 31, 2015

Hawgwash said:
The compromise I was getting at was not so much the tight quarters inside an anchorage but the ones getting into them. If you have access to CHS 3535 (inset 2), take a close look at the entrance to Smugglers Cove. A great example of many nooks and crannies between Vancouver and AK.

Ahhh...now I gotchya...that's a needle threader/keel scraper for sure!

Hawgwash · Jul 31, 2015

MurrayM said:
Ahhh...now I gotchya...that's a needle threader/keel scraper for sure!

You got it and I'm sure you've seen a few up your way.
Could run a 42 in there on plane but no amount of KY on a 50 PH would squeeze her in there. Mainly because, as the skipper of the Costa Concordia forgot, the stern turns, not the bow.

BandB · Jul 31, 2015

Baker said:
I still have no clue what type of boat or boats y'all have...

Wifey B: Fast but not super fast and slow but not super slow...

And lots of Rib's.

Riva and Westport....

Narrowed our loop boat down to a 60' Hatteras or a Sea Ray L 650 Fly. That will sort of be our "Trawler", but we already cruise like trawler people, just a bit faster.

Fastest boat we've ever owned was a 30' Cobalt. It would run over 50 knots, once hit 55. Well, take that back. A center console about 60.

mahal · Jul 31, 2015

Baker said:
I still have no clue what type of boat or boats y'all have...

It's suppose to be a secret but I remember seeing a picture of a 70' to 100' yacht that looked like (but probably not) a Baglietto in his/her avatar.

BandB · Jul 31, 2015

mahal said:
It's suppose to be a secret but I remember seeing a picture of a 70' to 100' yacht that looked like (but probably not) a Baglietto in his/her avatar.

Wifey B: No Baglietto....you might have seen a Riva sometime but not that big.

MurrayM · Jul 31, 2015

Hawgwash said:
You got it and I'm sure you've seen a few up your way.
Could run a 42 in there on plane but no amount of KY on a 50 PH would squeeze her in there. Mainly because, as the skipper of the Costa Concordia forgot, the stern turns, not the bow.

Thinking outside the box...PDQ 34 power catamaran with 2'4" draft?

PDQ 34 Power Catamaran

Gulf Comanche · Jul 31, 2015

Old School is 38' by 12'. The only thing I would change, if I could, would be 1' starboard and port, then it would be 14' wide. I think width makes more difference than length, comfort-wise anyway.
Mike

Art · Jul 31, 2015

Gulf Comanche said:
Old School is 38' by 12'. The only thing I would change, if I could, would be 1' starboard and port, then it would be 14' wide. I think width makes more difference than length, comfort-wise anyway.
Mike

38' loa div by 14' beam = 2.7

34' loa div by 12'6" beam = 2.7

We really like size and scope of our 34' / 12'6" classic 1977 Tollycraft tri cabin Pleasure Boat!

Codger2 · Jul 31, 2015

Pineapple Girl said:
we've been perfectly happy with our 35 foot sundeck for the past five years, until we looked at a 40' Europa.

"Blasphemy" I say! I thought you were an Ocean Alexander gal! :nonono:

BruceK · Jul 31, 2015

Pineapple Girl said:
we've been perfectly happy with our 35 foot sundeck for the past five years, until we looked at a 40' Europa.

Which one?
Maybe the Clipper 40 Europa, which may be an MT40 over there, as marketed here. Some with twins, most with a single/thrusters both ends. An update on the IG36, with gains and losses. So far, the 200K changeover hasn`t made enough sense to motivate a swap. I can certainly see the advantage over a sundeck, provided you accept no aft cabin.

Baker · Aug 1, 2015

MurrayM said:
Thinking outside the box...PDQ 34 power catamaran with 2'4" draft?

PDQ 34 Power Catamaran

Those are great boats but not terribly cheap. Also the staterooms are more sailboat like. You get a "nook" covered with a thin cushion. But hard to beat the other spaces as well as economy. The cats are the one boat where there is no "hump" and you can take advantage of the 9-12 knot speed range without any penalty for having to climb over that hump.

mahal · Aug 1, 2015

I have a GB36, my previous boat was a Silverton 312. My regrets are that I bought too small, I miss the sedan configuration and it's too slow for my limited boating time right now. But I can't justify moving up now being that we only use the boat about six times a year on a good year so we make it work.

I also wonder if had I moved up to a bigger boat like a 42'er if I would be satisfied or would I then long for a 46'er. Is "shoulda, coulda, woulda" more about the person or the boat?

Pineapple Girl · Aug 1, 2015

Codger2 said:
"Blasphemy" I say! I thought you were an Ocean Alexander gal!

The Europa we saw is an Ocean Alexander. First time I'd been on one. Wow.

djones44 · Aug 1, 2015

Codger2 said:
We caught the same disease about 3 years ago for exactly the same reasons. We were off the coast a couple of days ago, cruising at 10 knots and experiencing uncomfortable rolls. We kicked the speed up to 13 knots and had a great ride. (I can always slow down but having the ability to match what the sea throws at us is priceless.

Shhhh...this is the trawler forum...

Shoulda, coulda, woulda...

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

TF Site Team/Forum Founder

Moderator Emeritus

Guru

Guru

Guru

TF Site Team/Forum Founder

TF Site Team/Forum Founder

Guru

Guru

Attachments

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Guru

Moderator Emeritus

TF Site Team/Forum Founder

Guru

Moderator Emeritus

Senior Member

Similar threads