Interesting idea as the ability to detect the human voice is so advanced today.
Florida fishing teenagers missing.
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Interesting idea as the ability to detect the human voice is so advanced today.
It took 11 minutes to clear it up. They couldn't have waited 11 minutes before announcing and asked the question themselves. The rush to be first is what drives me crazy.
I remember years ago, early in my career, getting a call from a newspaper reporter. She was working on a story regarding a new facility to be built and wanted to confirm her information. I told her "no comment". She insisted. I repeated and told her if and when we had something to say, we'd say it and I would be glad to take her phone number. She then said, "I have a deadline today and I just wanted to be sure that what I was reporting was accurate." That's when I told her that if she chose to report information that she didn't know was accurate then that was her problem and was very unprofessional. That it was not our problem and no one would be commenting.
Let's see..I have rumors. I don't know if they're true or not. I have a deadline. So I'm going with them.
There was a time that all information was verified with at least two sources before it was published. It wasn't that long ago. I worked for a newspaper one summer during high school. I remember reporters taking stories to the editor but being put on hold until they could find a second source.
After an hour at the home of Cohen, they left the home and reaffirmed that the search is "Active and open."
psneeld
Guru
Actually...I wouldn't be suprised if the USCG was calling off the active search and someone with all the wrong intentions stepped in and told them to continue....
The press actually might have only beat that "someone" to the punch by minutes.
The press actually might have only beat that "someone" to the punch by minutes.
It could be. Obviously as they approach a reasonable in water survival time limit, calling it off becomes more probable. As to right or wrong intentions, I don't know that there are any. Yes, there's pressure to keep going. But if bowing to that pressure with an extra day or so gives both the family and the greater population more assurance, then it may well be worth it. If I was calling the shots, which obviously I'm not and won't ever be, I'd lean toward one or two days beyond the time the experts and I had concluded there was no real hope. I would also be having someone visit with the families about now informing them we were very close to that time and preparing them for it. There are times bowing to public pressure a bit may be worth it. If it takes a little extra to leave people able to say "I know they did all they can" then I'd do it.
More likely the press got a very sound bite from discussions taking place but the final call hadn't been made. Perhaps calling it off was even the recommendation from the officer who announced it wasn't called off. I'm sure the Captain doesn't have final authority.
psneeld
Guru
That's why the experts should make the call and no one else.
Bowing to external pressure sends the wrong signal to the rescue crews who trust their lives to the well seasoned, expert superiors who are the ones who send them out in harms way. A responsibility strongly endorsed by those in that position.
SAR crews who don't absolutely trust their operations officer are capable of doing all the wrong things for all the right reasons. Trust in the USCG in superiors is no different than the front lines of a battle....as I have been told by many a crossover pilot.
Not properly calling off a search is the baby version to a degree of sending an army in for a whim to satisfy someone's interests and not worth the price of casualties.
Politics should only be about elections..but unfortunately it spreads it's poison far beyond.
Bowing to external pressure sends the wrong signal to the rescue crews who trust their lives to the well seasoned, expert superiors who are the ones who send them out in harms way. A responsibility strongly endorsed by those in that position.
SAR crews who don't absolutely trust their operations officer are capable of doing all the wrong things for all the right reasons. Trust in the USCG in superiors is no different than the front lines of a battle....as I have been told by many a crossover pilot.
Not properly calling off a search is the baby version to a degree of sending an army in for a whim to satisfy someone's interests and not worth the price of casualties.
Politics should only be about elections..but unfortunately it spreads it's poison far beyond.
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We must agree to disagree on that subject then. However, I would not do it unduly long nor do it without full discussion with those in charge of the USCG effort. It would simply be "can we please continue an extra day, knowing it's just for the families and others concerned."
I fully respect you feel that is wrong.
Part of it too is that there are no absolutes. There is no point in time at which we can say with 100% certainty they're dead or say we wouldn't find their floating dead bodies if we continued. Nearly certain, yes.
As equating with a front line of battle, I don't. There isn't the same risk. They are not comparable situations.
Now back to the facts, rather than our opinions. Fact is, the search continues and the chances of success have diminished to being very small.
Agree 100%!!
Politics and power plays (little kingdoms) need to be left out of the equation!
You know my friend, although it may fly in the face of my previous response to psneeld, I'm going to have to give you kudo's on this post
By doing what you suggest, we take the matter from a purely technical aspect, to a more human level. If it were my kid or loved one, I'd want to know without question, that everything possible was done to find them.
By taking it a step or two further than what the "experts" suggest, and keeping it open a couple more days, you give the family an opportunity to adjust and in a way, come to grips with what may be the reality of the situation
The cost to keep it open a day or two longer can be astronomical to the "taxpayer"; however, IMHO we piss away way more money than that on useless governmental projects! Besides, these people are taxpayers too, and deserve everything they pay for.
But to drag it out "just to pacify some political motive". that's where I'd say we draw the line. Then again, than God, I don't have to make that call.
OD
Off Duty: There's no right or wrong way to handle it. Regardless it's a horrible, no win situation.
As to the hoax, I know nothing more about it. It could be a rumor not intended to cause harm but believed. I actually heard someone say after the boat was found, "That's great they found the Florida kids." This was in NYC and I had to correct them. But all it would have taken was them telling a friend who posts it on facebook and a thousand others pass it on.
As to the hoax, I know nothing more about it. It could be a rumor not intended to cause harm but believed. I actually heard someone say after the boat was found, "That's great they found the Florida kids." This was in NYC and I had to correct them. But all it would have taken was them telling a friend who posts it on facebook and a thousand others pass it on.
Surprisingly, our local news outlet had this information about the same time you were posting. My first thought was that the AP had messed up but then I wondered if they were right and then the decision was quickly over ruled. I also wondered if the three agencies showed up to give the latest status, but also to lay out the realities, and prepare the family that a decision was going to be made to end the search soon.
SAR political hypocrisy was never so high than in the UK Cheeki Rafki incident. The boat was sailing to the UK from the Caribbean when it lost its keel and capsized in a storm last year. Two PLBs were heard for a short time and the USCG sent out planes even though it was really pushing the range limit. The boat was found all but under water and no survivors. The search was called off but the UK press had a fit so the US went back and searched some more. Eventually, a diver went under the boat and found the life raft still in place an no sign of life in the hull.
It was pretty obvious the crew on watch most likely had on the PLBs. Given the water temperature and weather conditions anyone in the water was not going to last long if they were still alive after the capsize. The crew down below is not likely to have made it out of the boat and were likely working on trying to fix/found the water leakage and pump out the boat when it capsized. There was radio communication to shore and it was known they were having problems including flooding.
The hypocrisy was that a short time later,a boat returning to the UK from the continent was over due. The UK searched for a day or so and then ended the search. The man showed up later in his damaged boat. Not one word was said about the search ending for this guy and they had not even found his boat much less finding an keel less, capsized boat. The decision was made to give up the search but since it was not the US giving up the search, the UK press did not have a fit. I was really shocked the UK stopped searching so quickly for that guy.
Later,
Dan
Dan,
That's what I meant earlier, buy it could go either way.
My "guess", and that's all it is for now, is it was probably a little of both
chester613
Senior Member
I saw on Facebook they were found. I hope that's true. A lot of FB stuff is BS.
No, they have not been found.
Thanks
psneeld
Guru
Sure not much to say.....though I think there was discussion of a storm in one newsreport I read...wonder how much research was put into that end of it?
If a storm or more went through the area the boys might have been. ....it may shed some light on an overturned boat at least.
If a storm or more went through the area the boys might have been. ....it may shed some light on an overturned boat at least.
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I don't know if any of you are participating in the search, but if you are - or would like to - the reporter from WPTV in West Palm just said the following:
Per @BrianEntin, WPTV reporter, message from families, if you want to join searches, land, sea, or air, contact findperryandaustin@gmail.com
I have just volunteered, and am more than willing to come over from Ft. Myers to be a set of eyes and ears. If you have a boat and would like to add me as a crew dog for the weekend, please PM me.
Per @BrianEntin, WPTV reporter, message from families, if you want to join searches, land, sea, or air, contact findperryandaustin@gmail.com
I have just volunteered, and am more than willing to come over from Ft. Myers to be a set of eyes and ears. If you have a boat and would like to add me as a crew dog for the weekend, please PM me.
The fishermen in the area reported a storm. Sounded like a rather typical South Florida storm. The only working theory I've heard to this point is:
1. They were going outside, where they aren't supposed to and to the parents' knowledge normally don't. Bahamas rumors but not confirmed.
2. May have had engine problems as cover was removed.
3. Unable to motor, got caught in a wave and flipped.
4. Due to swiftness of current in gulf stream were unable to get back to the boat.
The investigation really just gets full speed now. The reality is that we may never know. For the family, the grief is also just starting. Acceptance will have to come at some point and then mourning. To this point they've been focused on recovery. Then on top of that a legal process that serves as a harsh reminder. It's not as important with kids, but with adults getting them legally declared as dead can take years and it puts families into arguing what they hate most to think.
I'm sure there will be outrage from all directions. Outrage the search is stopped. Outrage over boating laws. Outrage toward the parents. I hate that aspect where a tragic event is capitalized upon for pushing agendas. Yes, I know things I would have done differently and I'm sure the parents have thought constantly about how they might have prevented it. But the reality is we can't protect kids from all risks and especially if we want them to live full lives. There are tens of thousands of kids on football fields (American football) and it's a far more risky sport than boating or fishing. As parents, we do our best and, sometimes, it's just not good enough. But that doesn't mean we failed. It means something horrible happened.
The worst loss by far anyone can ever experience in life is the loss of a child. Many never get though it. I don't know that I could. Just typing this and imagining losing someone who isn't even technically our child brings tears. And I also have tears for what those parents are going through.
psneeld
Guru
The primary search area is probably off South and North Carolina now....but mopping up a huge search area can involve investigating anomolies.
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psneeld
Guru
Actually...
1. the motor cover could have and probably came off after the boat flipped,
2. piw drift as fast as the current so if the boat had flipped staying with it isn't hard except in a bad storm,
3 And there is no real investigation further on the USCG end that I know of unless asked by someone astronomically high up the food chain..maybe Law Enforcement will..but I haven't heard of many after action investigations at all, unless foul play was suspected...and no leaks of that as of yet.
Outrage the search has stopped?..well it will roll off the backs of the pros that did their job and did it well...we will see what the weaker segment of government does. There will be more outrage by the populous to continue a search after the pros call it off and any taxpayers money go into it....been there, done that....got the retirement hat.
1. the motor cover could have and probably came off after the boat flipped,
2. piw drift as fast as the current so if the boat had flipped staying with it isn't hard except in a bad storm,
3 And there is no real investigation further on the USCG end that I know of unless asked by someone astronomically high up the food chain..maybe Law Enforcement will..but I haven't heard of many after action investigations at all, unless foul play was suspected...and no leaks of that as of yet.
Outrage the search has stopped?..well it will roll off the backs of the pros that did their job and did it well...we will see what the weaker segment of government does. There will be more outrage by the populous to continue a search after the pros call it off and any taxpayers money go into it....been there, done that....got the retirement hat.
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Agree. I would expect that searching from Ponce Inlet up to JAX would be more for looking for the cooler, life jackets, bait bucket, etc.
Latest ROFFS report (7/31/2015):
Today’s Update:
The eddy that we have been following southeast of Charleston, SC is centered near 79°10’W & 31°55’N. It continues to move northeastward. There may be a smaller eddy (2-3 mile diameter) along the western boundary of the Gulf Stream by the eddy, but the clouds have prevented us from confirming this. It is likely to coalesce with the larger eddy and create more turbulence in the flow. Note that the elongated finger-filament of Gulf Stream now extends from 79°00’W & 32°10’N all the way back (southwest) to St. Augustine. The southern end is near 80°45’W & 31°50’N. The flow of the blended Gulf Stream water in the filament is southwestward to St. Augustine and a blend of this water with the coastal waters extend to Flagler Beach. Off Daytona Beach the water is moving northeastward. The boys could be in this elongated filament as they could still be rotating around the eddy. Note that there are two relatively smaller (2-3 mile diameter) eddy features moving northward between Daytona Beach and Jacksonville Beach and a smaller one yet east of Fernandina Beach, FL centered near 79°30’W & 31°20’N. This northernmost small eddy is likely to affect the shape and circulation of the eddy that the boys could be in. We do not think that the boys will be along the western boundary of the Gulf Stream south of 31°00’N. We anticipate that the eddy southeast of Charleston (centered near 79°10’W & 31°55’N) will continue to move in a northeast direction. However, we are uncertain if it will reach the Georgetown Hole fishing area (centered near 78°35’W & 32°32N), or turn more eastward like many eddy features do. Note that the flow of the water east of Charleston, SC still is eastward.
Bottom Line:
The search area continues to increase considering the various movements of the water masses to carry the boys. We are now uncertain how much our analyses are assisting the search although we continue to receive calls asking for direction from pilots and boaters. Our best estimate is that the search should continue around the eddy area, the area where the eddy is traveling, as well as, the filament of blue water that extends southwestward to Jacksonville – St. Augustine. If your reach is only off Flagler Beach, FL it is worth a look as well. IF the boys were not caught in the eddy circulation then they would be far east of Charleston, SC headed northward toward Cape Hatteras.
Again we are hopeful that these analyses will help people direct their search efforts to areas where there are increased chances for Austin and Perry to be found alive.
I'm not familiar with how the private effort is being organized (I'm in Massachusetts at the moment), but the real primary targeted area would now be far north of Florida.
I see the next best hope of seeing them, if they're floating, the fishing fleets off the coast of NC, Hatteras, etc. I'm guessing the flow pattern would put them in that area in another couple of days. Unfortunately, the flow pattern spreads out considerably the further north you follow it.
From the USCG:
Together we covered an area just shy of 50-thousand-square-nautical miles (57,500 miles). It ranged from the Jupiter Inlet up to Cape Hatteras, North Carolina and 270 miles to the east of Savannah, Georgia
Just giving perspective of how far north the target area would be now.
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