Work while cruising
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ksanders
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Actually the only way to avoid paying both sides of Social Security is to file as an subchapter S corporation.
You can't avoid all of the Social Security because you have to draw a paycheck and be paid a reasonable wage for all actual work performed. those paychecks have to have Social Security witheld just like any employer and since you own the company you are in fact paying both halves of the Social Security for those wages.
The savings come in when your business makes a profit(after it pays your wages), that profit flows in to your personal income as unearned income, with the earned income portion being reported on form W2 just like any other job.
If you DO NOT file under subchapter S then all income from the business flows into your personal income as earned income and you will pay both halves of Social Security on it.
An LLC is a state function, not a federal function, so it has no bearing on your federal tax status. A LLC is meant to provide protection of the LLC owners (members), from liabilities incurred by the LLC, whereas a sole proprietorship or a partnership offers no such protection. Forming an LLC also offers things like registration of business name, etc... under the laws governing corporations in the state where the LLC is formed.
I've been through this for a decade and a half. As my business grew I was first forced to change my accounting method from "cash" to "accural", then I decided to change my federal tax status to subchaper S to avoid Social Security on business profits. My wife and I now draw regular paychecks and have done so for years. Profits are distributed as well and are accounted for separately.
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You are absolutely correct sir. I should have been more specific.
We are a sub S Corp.
Dumped the SET I was saddled with as a sole proprietorship, as well as the benefits you mentioned above.
Thanks for the clarification.
(That's why I do what I do, and leave the CPA stuff to the CPA's.
OD
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
You sounded like you had it down cold, I just wanted to make sure others considering the same path understood the full pricture.
I was just filling in some gaps if you will.
An LLC does have bearing on federal tax status. Here are the basic rules.
Depending on elections made by the LLC and the number of members, the IRS will treat an LLC as either a corporation, partnership, or as part of the LLC’s owner’s tax return (a “disregarded entity”). Specifically, a domestic LLC with at least two members is classified as a partnership for federal income tax purposes unless it files Form 8832 and affirmatively elects to be treated as a corporation. And an LLC with only one member is treated as an entity disregarded as separate from its owner for income tax purposes (but as a separate entity for purposes of employment tax and certain excise taxes), unless it files Form 8832 and affirmatively elects to be treated as a corporation.
An LLC that does not want to accept its default federal tax classification, or that wishes to change its classification, uses Form 8832, Entity Classification Election, to elect how it will be classified for federal tax purposes. Generally, an election specifying an LLC’s classification cannot take effect more than 75 days prior to the date the election is filed, nor can it take effect later than 12 months after the date the election is filed.
The keypoint is that every situation is slightly different as every state has different rules and the method in which you handle the setup of the entity will impact your federal tax filing. So, get expert assistance, especially at the time you start the business entity.
I've seen or known of so many people over the years adversely impacted because they filed one form a few days late, a form such as 8832. I've seen people thinking they'd be treated as an S-Corporation and finding the paperwork wasn't filed and they were a C-Corporation so had both Corporate taxes and personal taxes involved.
Then the complexity extends to state income taxes, unemployment taxes, requirements for workers' compensation coverage, legal rights to conduct business in the state and treatment as a foreign entity.
Another issue the others mentioned is the payment of salary to oneself within your Corporation. You must pay a "reasonable amount" as salary. Now determining a reasonable amount isn't as easily done as said. However, if you have a profitable corporation whose revenues are a result of your personal work and you fail to pay salary and subject part of the income to payroll taxes, then the IRS will often determine it is 100% subject to payroll taxes, that essentially you're just self employed.
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I think Wayfarer is in a different category due his merchant marine employment status.
I am employed in New Jersey, live in Florida and work in many states. I just spent three weeks in Texas. There is a clause in the tax code that provides for MM types. Most accountants don't know about these because they don't deal with them on a regular basis.
I don't pay NJ state taxes. Federal taxes only. My current accountant needed an education on this in the beginning. She is comfortable and used to it now.
Don't get me started on travel deductions.
I am employed in New Jersey, live in Florida and work in many states. I just spent three weeks in Texas. There is a clause in the tax code that provides for MM types. Most accountants don't know about these because they don't deal with them on a regular basis.
I don't pay NJ state taxes. Federal taxes only. My current accountant needed an education on this in the beginning. She is comfortable and used to it now.
Don't get me started on travel deductions.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
OK, I stand corrected there. We when we set up our LLC we did nothing. We defaulted to a partnership. (we did this before we even had money for a CPA)
Years later we made an election to change to a S corp. Our CPA said it was a one time election.
The issue of what is "reasonable" pay is very relevant. What we do is log 40 hours per week. The pay we receive is in what we feel is a reasonable range if you were to write out the specific job duties of what we do. We might have erred on the high side even.
In order to dispute that the IRS would have to show that our wages were not reasonable. That is a fight they probably would not waste much time on. Where they would get involved is if we did not log regular work weeks of hours.
We do it just as you do. While our situation is quite complex, it's really not difficult to determine "reasonable" based on normal wages for equivalent jobs. We err on the high side too. While there is the seemingly negative aspect of employment taxes on that amount there are also group benefits including health insurance, life insurance, and 401-K.
I'm sure they do occasionally, but I've never personally known the IRS to dispute anything that came close to reasonable in this regard. I have known them to take situations where no salary was claimed and declare it all compensation subject to employment taxes and add on substantial penalties. I've also known states to jump in on unemployment taxes and workers' compensation requirements too. Unemployment taxes in Florida for the first 2 and a half years are 2.7%. Then it's based on experience.
FF
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The initial question was how to work while" Cruising."
A std white collar job , using the internet will require far more connectivity than most boats can obtain underway.
Is cruising is being tied to a dock for months , moving once or twice a year?
After living aboard for a couple of decades , which required a dock to go to work from,
I consider a day at the dock NOT to be Cruising , just house boating.
A std white collar job , using the internet will require far more connectivity than most boats can obtain underway.
Is cruising is being tied to a dock for months , moving once or twice a year?
After living aboard for a couple of decades , which required a dock to go to work from,
I consider a day at the dock NOT to be Cruising , just house boating.
We enjoy working while traveling, real estate income does not care where we are
Now that's a great answer!
Build an income rather than a business.
AusCan
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I work a 4 weeks on / 4 weeks off rotational shift and fly to and from my workplace. Many remote mine sites and oil & gas facilities offer this type of work cycle. This allows much more time to cruise than the average Monday - Friday work cycle.
I've been doing this for 30 years and would recommend it to anyone who has the required skills looking for a alternative way to still make a good income while still having time for cruising. Although I currently return to the home port due to boat limitations, in the future I may do extended cruising and just fly to work from wherever I am at the time.
I've been doing this for 30 years and would recommend it to anyone who has the required skills looking for a alternative way to still make a good income while still having time for cruising. Although I currently return to the home port due to boat limitations, in the future I may do extended cruising and just fly to work from wherever I am at the time.
While I'd agree if that dock remains the same one, if it's a different dock every two or three days, then I'd consider that cruising.
Would you consider this cruising?
Day 1-Fort Lauderdale to Daytona Beach 12 hours.
Day 2-Daytona Beach
Day 3-Daytona to Fernandina. 7 hours.
Day 4-Fernandina
Day 5-Fernandina to Savannah 9 hours
Day 6-Savannah
Day 7-Savannah
Day 8-Savannah to Hilton Head 3 hours
Day 9-Hilton Head
Day 10-Hilton Head to Charleston 6 hours
Day 11-Charleston
Day 12-Charleston
Day 13-Charleston to Myrtle Beach 9 hours
Day 14-Myrtle Beach
Day 15-Myrtle Beach to Beaufort, NC 13 hours
Day 16-Beaufort
Day 17-Beaufort to Hampton 14 hours
Day 18-Hampton
Day 19-Hampton to Washington 11 hours
Day 20-Washington
Day 21-Washington
Day 22-Washington
Day 23-Washington to Cape Charles 13 hours
Day 24-Cape Charles
Day 25-Cape Charles to Annapolis 11 hours
Day 26-Annapolis
Day 27-Annapolis
Day 28-Annapolis
Day 29-Annapolis to Baltimore 3 hours
Day 30-Baltimore
Do you consider that 30 days of cruising or 12 days of cruising and 18 of houseboating?
Yes, but does FF consider it cruising?
We just returned from a few days in/on crystal river. As I have on many other occasions when we travel I was able to run my business from my smartphone. This included putting out a couple of fires and handling a few time sensitive matters.
A tablet or laptop would have been much easier, but this was more convenient this time.
My thought for the full time cruiser, is build a business "income" rather than having a "job."
Like one of the members stated, real estate doesn't move (most of the time-lol), and doesn't care where you are.
If the wife and I are ever fortunate enough to cruise, either full or part time, I don't really want to work. I would rather enjoy the travel, the destinations and the people we meet, than tie ourselves up working.
If you just want to stay busy, or if we you're going to be in an area for a prolonged period, maybe consider some volunteer work with a local charity, marine ecology group, or maritime based (preferably) youth group. That would be our goal at least.
As far as travel outside of our home state, if we did decide to do something "commercial", most of the work that I Would be doing would be short term (1 day to maybe 2 weeks at a time) consulting or training. My wife would either assist me, or being a retired RN, might find a local PRN position.
If required, we'll just deal with the local states taxes and move on. Not enough $$$$ to worry about.
A tablet or laptop would have been much easier, but this was more convenient this time.
My thought for the full time cruiser, is build a business "income" rather than having a "job."
Like one of the members stated, real estate doesn't move (most of the time-lol), and doesn't care where you are.
If the wife and I are ever fortunate enough to cruise, either full or part time, I don't really want to work. I would rather enjoy the travel, the destinations and the people we meet, than tie ourselves up working.
If you just want to stay busy, or if we you're going to be in an area for a prolonged period, maybe consider some volunteer work with a local charity, marine ecology group, or maritime based (preferably) youth group. That would be our goal at least.
As far as travel outside of our home state, if we did decide to do something "commercial", most of the work that I Would be doing would be short term (1 day to maybe 2 weeks at a time) consulting or training. My wife would either assist me, or being a retired RN, might find a local PRN position.
If required, we'll just deal with the local states taxes and move on. Not enough $$$$ to worry about.
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ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
FF My wife and I work while actually cruising. All it takes is an internet connection and a phone.
Most places are covered by cellular telephones now days. If your cruising grounds take you out of cellular range then there's satellite.
Thats the situation we are in. There is no cell service where we prefer to boat so we use KVH high speed satellite and phone service. It's not cheap but it allows us the freedom to go where we want to go.
Our business model is the sale of high capacity power switching, measurement and generation equipment. In order to do this we need access to phone and internet during our "work day". As technology has progressed we find ourselves answering most questions via email, then finalizing the deal with a phone call.
Auscan You are 100% correct about rotational work. It is in my opinion the hidden gem in work life. I work a 2 week on 2 week off rotation at the Prudhoe Bay oil field in Alaska. I've been working this kind of shift with only a small "break" for 20 years now.
What that means is that I have 10 two week vacations a year and two three week vacations a year. That is a lifestyle changer. People do not realize what life is like having this much time off, and earning the premium salaries the oil companies pay us for the kind of work we do.
As an FYI all I have to do is show up at the Anchorage Alaska airport. The oil company takes it from there. They feed me, provide a private room to sleep, buy my clothes, and anything else I need. Literally all I have to do is show up ready to work.
It has allowed me to start and grow a business, with my wife taking care of things half the time. That is part of the plan. At 58 in just a few years now I will leave the oil field and run my business full time. That will be my retirement. I will still technically be "working" but will have my business income to supplement our pensions. That will make life decisions much easier than being on fixed income or living only off of savings.
Most places are covered by cellular telephones now days. If your cruising grounds take you out of cellular range then there's satellite.
Thats the situation we are in. There is no cell service where we prefer to boat so we use KVH high speed satellite and phone service. It's not cheap but it allows us the freedom to go where we want to go.
Our business model is the sale of high capacity power switching, measurement and generation equipment. In order to do this we need access to phone and internet during our "work day". As technology has progressed we find ourselves answering most questions via email, then finalizing the deal with a phone call.
Auscan You are 100% correct about rotational work. It is in my opinion the hidden gem in work life. I work a 2 week on 2 week off rotation at the Prudhoe Bay oil field in Alaska. I've been working this kind of shift with only a small "break" for 20 years now.
What that means is that I have 10 two week vacations a year and two three week vacations a year. That is a lifestyle changer. People do not realize what life is like having this much time off, and earning the premium salaries the oil companies pay us for the kind of work we do.
As an FYI all I have to do is show up at the Anchorage Alaska airport. The oil company takes it from there. They feed me, provide a private room to sleep, buy my clothes, and anything else I need. Literally all I have to do is show up ready to work.
It has allowed me to start and grow a business, with my wife taking care of things half the time. That is part of the plan. At 58 in just a few years now I will leave the oil field and run my business full time. That will be my retirement. I will still technically be "working" but will have my business income to supplement our pensions. That will make life decisions much easier than being on fixed income or living only off of savings.
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cardude01
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Kevin,
Props to you for formulating and executing a well thought out retirement plan. It's not easy to do.
I have struggled in my transition from full employment to full retirement. My first try I became very bored, and after two years I gave up and started the used car lot I have now. I have a good manager and only work 10-15 hours a week and can leave for fairly long periods, but it's still always on my mind. I plan to sell the lot to the manager in 3-4 years and try full retirement again.
Props to you for formulating and executing a well thought out retirement plan. It's not easy to do.
I have struggled in my transition from full employment to full retirement. My first try I became very bored, and after two years I gave up and started the used car lot I have now. I have a good manager and only work 10-15 hours a week and can leave for fairly long periods, but it's still always on my mind. I plan to sell the lot to the manager in 3-4 years and try full retirement again.
Full retirement for me lasted exactly....zero long. Now we are younger but still. First I agreed to do occasional one day type projects for my former employer. I do those fine from wherever I am. If we're cruising, we'll just take a day and spent it on a project. Then it was buy a small business of some sort just to satisfy my business oriented mind. My wife is the one who knew before I did that was something I needed. Well, to me, it's a hobby. Whether it makes money or not is irrelevant. We have great people working for us and it takes very little time and never impacts our cruising. If we're home for three weeks, we'll likely spend three or four days maximum in the office. When cruising, we check emails at night and otherwise maybe participate in a Friday morning staff meeting every couple of weeks and maybe make a phone call in response to an email once every week or two. But mentoring our key people and directing things to our desired methods isn't work to me. If it becomes work, I'll get out. So, in total, I'm guessing all of that "hobby work" I perhaps average spending 20 hours a month. I do have enough confidence in those running things for us, that it is not always on my mind.
One thing I do as well is compartmentalize. Unless there's something very urgent, we don't get called on business when out. So far, there's never been anything that urgent in 2 1/2 years. If it's something that we need to discuss over the phone, we are asked in an email to call. We only check business emails at the end of our day. Now it does require a tremendous amount of trust as our CEO and CFO have tremendous authority. Outside of our corporate office most people aren't even aware we exist and they are the "face" of our company.
Now, I'm not suggesting this will work for others, but I am suggesting for some of us, 100% working to 100% retirement may be too drastic. For instance, if you sell the business to the manager, maybe you get a small consulting arrangement where he emails you and you call in occasionally and go by when home.
I like to say that today my vocation is boating. Business is just an avocation or really a hobby just like music and tennis and basketball. My wife does the same with designing and directing implementation of reading programs.
I think for those who take old boats and rebuild them or who work a lot on their boat, it's a bit the same. If you can find a business you can do online it's great if it will pay for your communication. Maybe it's just taking a hobby one has and emphasizing it more. As much as we love boating, we're not of the nature to limit our lives to one activity.
Someone mentioned volunteering and that is something that can be done wherever you happen to be.
I'm going to be a bit contrarian here. I understand the appeal of running a business part-time while doing something else, but that is not a "best practice" for success.
So then there are the traditional white / blue collar jobs for wages - not much to add there.
Then there's the portable trade - lots of options, as others have said look at the sail community for ideas.
Which brings us to the "work from home" professional world. I happened to read a great article on this a couple of days ago: http://blog.idonethis.com/working-from-home-transition/
I suggest anyone thinking of this type of work read that piece (I'm actually friends with one of the people mentioned - that's why it showed up in my Newsle feed). And really think about bringing your A game while sitting on a boat.
The boat offices I've seen - spare staterooms on KKs, Hatterases, et cetera - I sure wouldn't want to sit in there for hours on end. With crummy connectivity. With distractions. Just to be on the boat.
My boat is 12 minutes from home. With solid wi-fi. And a couple blocks downtown Bellevue (Seattle's "Eastside"). I've tried numerous times to "work from boat" and it's been an unsatisfying experience. I can deal with it if I have one or two teleconferences in a day and maybe some email. But serious work requiring (for me) multiple monitors and high-speed remote connections? It's not pleasant boating OR working.
So then there are the traditional white / blue collar jobs for wages - not much to add there.
Then there's the portable trade - lots of options, as others have said look at the sail community for ideas.
Which brings us to the "work from home" professional world. I happened to read a great article on this a couple of days ago: http://blog.idonethis.com/working-from-home-transition/
I suggest anyone thinking of this type of work read that piece (I'm actually friends with one of the people mentioned - that's why it showed up in my Newsle feed). And really think about bringing your A game while sitting on a boat.
The boat offices I've seen - spare staterooms on KKs, Hatterases, et cetera - I sure wouldn't want to sit in there for hours on end. With crummy connectivity. With distractions. Just to be on the boat.
My boat is 12 minutes from home. With solid wi-fi. And a couple blocks downtown Bellevue (Seattle's "Eastside"). I've tried numerous times to "work from boat" and it's been an unsatisfying experience. I can deal with it if I have one or two teleconferences in a day and maybe some email. But serious work requiring (for me) multiple monitors and high-speed remote connections? It's not pleasant boating OR working.
In some ways, it's like working from home. It works for some and absolutely doesn't for others.
We're for the most part absentee owners and that's a situation I'd typically recommend strongly against, but it works well for us and might in a situation where you had a great manager you really had confidence in. One technique is to let that manager buy into the business through their work.
I guess what I'm saying is that some of us break all the rules, but things still work out great for us. That doesn't, however, mean it's for others. Kevin and his wife find it works for them, we find it works for us.
If you're going to be working on your boat, you cannot cut corners. You can't depend on cell service or WIFI at marinas. You must have connectivity for internet and phone and you must have all the equipment you need on board-computers, monitors, printers. It has to be a truly functional office to work for you. So already you have costs and the profits must be enough to justify them. Also, if you have others working for you on land, you must empower them to make all the normal operating decisions they need to.
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Guru
BandB own a business, it doesn't own them. Best practice for success is being accomplished by them. They make the necessary money for the lifestyle desired. Sure they could stay there and probably hammer out another 25-35% profits but so what? They are not into slavery.
2 eye opening books are "The E Myth" by Michael Gerber. Basically dispelling the notion that if you know widgetts, you can run a widgett business. Wrong.
"The 4 hour workweek" by Tim Ferris. Band B are living this scenario. They empower trusted, trained employees to run the majority of their business, while having management imput and direction. No micro management here.
Yes, we are doing it. But that doesn't mean the warnings aren't also appropriate. As to another 25-35% profits, I seriously doubt it. Being limited to overall guidance and direction and independent of day to day operations lets us add value but without impeding what others can accomplish.
We also don't depend on the business profits for basic living or cruising and that changes the equation dramatically. I can't honestly say, if we did, would we be as worry free about it as we are. I doubt it.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
For me running our business isn't being locked in a stateroom/office, it's sitting in the salon, or the pilothouse using a laptop.
Its also not really doing that full time either. We get maybe 10 phone calls a day, and another couple dozen emails we have to deal with.
The rest of the work is order entry and order closeout, but not like people imagine. Our average sale is something over $2,000 so its not like we do allot of orders in a day.
The only issue is we have to be available. Many of my customers call based on a emergency. We have to answer the phone, determine the equipment he needs to get back up and running, then get it shipped out, often via next day air. We make a living by getting the part you need in your hands to get your facilities lights back on.
The other part is just bidding jobs. Sens out a quote, and specifications. Some back and forth on the application, then a month later we get a call or an email with an order.
Communications from the boat, or a hotel room is essentially the same as from the office. If we don't answer the phone the call route's to our live answering service. Our customers do not like voicemail and neither do we.
Its also not really doing that full time either. We get maybe 10 phone calls a day, and another couple dozen emails we have to deal with.
The rest of the work is order entry and order closeout, but not like people imagine. Our average sale is something over $2,000 so its not like we do allot of orders in a day.
The only issue is we have to be available. Many of my customers call based on a emergency. We have to answer the phone, determine the equipment he needs to get back up and running, then get it shipped out, often via next day air. We make a living by getting the part you need in your hands to get your facilities lights back on.
The other part is just bidding jobs. Sens out a quote, and specifications. Some back and forth on the application, then a month later we get a call or an email with an order.
Communications from the boat, or a hotel room is essentially the same as from the office. If we don't answer the phone the call route's to our live answering service. Our customers do not like voicemail and neither do we.
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n36511
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Thanks for all of the great responses. From all of them it is easy to see that this is a very broad topic. My interest lies more in what to do while in retirement to make a few extra bucks here and there. I am not interested in starting a full time business or carrying that kind of responsibility. Just interested in jobs that can be picked up in various ports. My wife and I expect to cruise up and down the east coast spending a couple months at a time going from port to port. That could mean staying at one dock or anchorage for as long as a month or so, or as little as a day. Some interesting jobs that have come up in discussions outside this board are:
Backfill bartender - Usually a cash job and can make $200 or so a night. I like the thought of this as I am a people person. Not sure I want to close a bar down at 2am though.
Delivery captain - Really appeals to me as I can work on getting the necessary licensing and reputation, I love boating, and wife wants to work as mate. Would allow us to travel together and make a few bucks here and there.
I have IT skills but in the last 8 years have been in a functional managers role. I could figure out something in this field, however, not sure I want the responsibility of having to answer the call when the customer experiences issues of some sorts and needs immediate help.
Backfill bartender - Usually a cash job and can make $200 or so a night. I like the thought of this as I am a people person. Not sure I want to close a bar down at 2am though.
Delivery captain - Really appeals to me as I can work on getting the necessary licensing and reputation, I love boating, and wife wants to work as mate. Would allow us to travel together and make a few bucks here and there.
I have IT skills but in the last 8 years have been in a functional managers role. I could figure out something in this field, however, not sure I want the responsibility of having to answer the call when the customer experiences issues of some sorts and needs immediate help.
West Marine? The pay is the pits but the benefit of getting boat parts cheaper is an incentive. They always seem to be looking for part time help. If you work in one location for a while successfully maybe you can fill in at the various stores as you cruise?
You mention your experience in IT. What experience do you have in bartending and relevant to a delivery captain? I know currently you're on Lake Lanier with a gas powered Carver but didn't know if you have coastal experience with different boats or not.
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n36511
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Good question. Bartending - zero. Coastal cruising - limited. Have bareboat chartered a few sub 45' on the east coast for a week at a time (ft Lauderdale, Miami, no name harbor, etc). There are chartering opportunities locally as there are entry level bartender opportunities locally as well.
I am asking these questions as I am 43 and will be eligible for full retirement at age 50 from my company. Where I am at now, I know I don't want to stay in corp America any longer than I have to. I also don't think I will want to spend the time and effort to build any major business after that point...however I will still want to be into something. The wife and I want to move the boat to the coast and do some east coast cruising and over to the Bahamas once in a blue moon. All that being said, I have 7+ years to hone skills/take off hours odd jobs if it looks like it may be something that is portable and can follow me to whatever port I land in.
Based on tour last couple of posts, I'd probably recommend something that pays you whether you're there or not. Rental properties with a management company in place is o e example.
That'll keep the steady money flowing along with whatever retirement income you may have from your current job.
As far as bar backing, little experience is required for that gig. If you intend to bar tend, you'll either need some experience or be able to prove your abilities. While the cash is ok, you still probably end up with the same tax hassles at the end of last year depending on the state and local governments.
What does/did your wife do for employment? Are her skills such that PRN opportunities exist?
There's always the possibility of doing odd jobs around the marina wherever you happen to be. Might have the benefit of cash only payment and some bene's in the fees department.
That'll keep the steady money flowing along with whatever retirement income you may have from your current job.
As far as bar backing, little experience is required for that gig. If you intend to bar tend, you'll either need some experience or be able to prove your abilities. While the cash is ok, you still probably end up with the same tax hassles at the end of last year depending on the state and local governments.
What does/did your wife do for employment? Are her skills such that PRN opportunities exist?
There's always the possibility of doing odd jobs around the marina wherever you happen to be. Might have the benefit of cash only payment and some bene's in the fees department.
