Sometimes big engines are an advantage
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Hey - Wait a second! Read post 147 again... What bout gals on boats??? Let's get Baker back onto his photo routine; with best in class female picts. Can't possibly leave that part of boating unattended!
Ted (OC Diver)--- I am well aware of the"definitions" of the term "trawler" as applied to recreational boats on Wikipedia and other places. This doesn't make this use of the term correct. It simply shows us where all those kids who flunked English in school ended up working.
Northern Spy
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Well then, how do you feel about the word "gay"? The definition of that word has changed significantly during our lifetime.
Either that or Maria was trying to tell us something in West Side Story...
Language is dynamic.
Either that or Maria was trying to tell us something in West Side Story...
Language is dynamic.
hmason
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Do you remember the SS United States?
United States had the most powerful steam turbines of any merchant marine vessel, with a total power of 240,000 SHP (shaft horsepower) delivered to four 18-foot (5.5 m) diameter manganese-bronze propellers. This gave her the greatest power-to-weight ratio ever achieved in a commercial passenger liner, before or since. The ship was capable of steaming astern at over 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), and could carry enough fuel and stores to steam non-stop for over 10,000 nautical miles (19,000 km; 12,000 mi) at a cruising speed of 35 knots (65 km/h; 40 mph).[16]
Imagine what she could have done with nuclear power.
Howard
United States had the most powerful steam turbines of any merchant marine vessel, with a total power of 240,000 SHP (shaft horsepower) delivered to four 18-foot (5.5 m) diameter manganese-bronze propellers. This gave her the greatest power-to-weight ratio ever achieved in a commercial passenger liner, before or since. The ship was capable of steaming astern at over 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph), and could carry enough fuel and stores to steam non-stop for over 10,000 nautical miles (19,000 km; 12,000 mi) at a cruising speed of 35 knots (65 km/h; 40 mph).[16]
Imagine what she could have done with nuclear power.
Howard
Gay isn't a definition of an actual thing. Gay is a definition of a state of mind. To that end, it's meaning hasn't actually changed in some respects.
Trawler is a definition of an actual thing. The use of the word "trawler" to describe a toy boat is simply a marketing ploy to try to project the image of one thing onto another thing even though the other thing isn't remotely like the real thing. It's a marketing gimmick, no more, no less, and the boating world fell for it.
A real trawler is still a trawler. Its definition hasn't changed at all.
Ted (OC Diver)--- I am well aware of the"definitions" of the term "trawler" as applied to recreational boats on Wikipedia and other places. This doesn't make this use of the term correct. It simply shows us where all those kids who flunked English in school ended up working.
Good on you Marin,
While I generally hold to the principles of brevity, wit etc., I've got to say that I'm really enjoying your special brand of pedantic proxility being exercised on this thread.
Keep it going!
cheers,
djones44
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Displacement hulls will always be the baseline for boating, as will hull speed for our 30-60' designation. A tailored boat optimized for 7 knots, yet can crawl up onto the plane when required, with a flatter bottom aft - anybody here have one of them?
I had an old Turner 26' lapstrake that was flogged as an "express cruiser", soggy and heavy, so maybe we can revive....no, there's too much of the go-fast idiom in there... ;-)
I had an old Turner 26' lapstrake that was flogged as an "express cruiser", soggy and heavy, so maybe we can revive....no, there's too much of the go-fast idiom in there... ;-)
Nomad Willy
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eagle419,
I hope so too but I think he's beat this one to death.
jones,
"Optimized for 7 knots" .. .?
How could it plane then?
Possibly a Handy Billy that has basically a FD hull well under hull speed and a bit of rocker aft but straight enough to plane when the stern squats and the bow up a bit. I would call that particular boat as having a SD hull. But it comes fairly close to your description.
I hope so too but I think he's beat this one to death.
jones,
"Optimized for 7 knots" .. .?
How could it plane then?
Possibly a Handy Billy that has basically a FD hull well under hull speed and a bit of rocker aft but straight enough to plane when the stern squats and the bow up a bit. I would call that particular boat as having a SD hull. But it comes fairly close to your description.
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Wayfarer
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Actually, this is in many ways very similar to the 'trawler' situation. The gay community consciously took a word that meant one thing, and used it effectively to brand itself. Very few English speaking people would associate the word 'gay' with its original definition these days. While it technically still means 'happy,' if you walk into the wrong room and shout how gay you're feeling today, it could be quite hazardous to your health.
Dynamic indeed.
Wait... What was the question again?
O C Diver
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Ted (OC Diver)--- I am well aware of the"definitions" of the term "trawler" as applied to recreational boats on Wikipedia and other places. This doesn't make this use of the term correct. It simply shows us where all those kids who flunked English in school ended up working.
If the the phrase "Recreational Trawler" or "Trawler Yacht" is correctly attributed to the founder of Kadey Krogan, it's probably unlikely that he failed English and clearly did very well for himself.
Ted
Well, we don 't know that he didn't fail English. Just because he was a good boat designer doesn't automatically mean he had a good command of the language.
More likely he'd already fallen for the bogus scam of attaching a term that defines a commercial fishing boat to a recreational boat in an attempt to buff up the image of the recreational boat. Or perhaps he helped create the scam in the first place.
As to doing well for himself, I know of a former Yugo dealer who became a multi-millionaire passing Yugos off as being "just as good as a Ford or Chevy" to an initially unsuspecting public.
I'm not saying a Krogen is a bad boat. I'm saying it's not a "trawler" by any stretch of the imagination except apparently in Mr. Krogen's who I would have thought would have known better.
And if Krogen actually is the one responsible for attaching the name "trawler" to a boat that isn't one, well, then shame on him for misleading the boat-buying public.
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Daveo
Veteran Member
Eagle 419
"Good on you Marin,
While I generally hold to the principles of brevity, wit etc., I've got to say that I'm really enjoying your special brand of pedantic proxility being exercised on this thread.
Keep it going!"
I'm with you on this
, but why is your picture on the trawler forum a sailboat??
"Good on you Marin,
While I generally hold to the principles of brevity, wit etc., I've got to say that I'm really enjoying your special brand of pedantic proxility being exercised on this thread.
Keep it going!"
I'm with you on this
, but why is your picture on the trawler forum a sailboat??I'm with you on this
HAha! That get-home/steadying rig on a 37 tonne timber workboat hull doesn't make my boat a "sailing boat" Daveo - it's still just a "motor boat" to me!
Maybe we should ask the others to comment at length?
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O C Diver
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Well, we don 't know that he didn't fail English. Just because he was a good boat designer doesn't automatically mean he had a good command of the language.
More likely he'd already fallen for the bogus scam of attaching a term that defines a commercial fishing boat to a recreational boat in an attempt to buff up the image of the recreational boat. Or perhaps he helped create the scam in the first place.
As to doing well for himself, I know of a former Yugo dealer who became a multi-millionaire passing Yugos off as being "just as good as a Ford or Chevy" to an initially unsuspecting public.
I'm not saying a Krogen is a bad boat. I'm saying it's not a "trawler" by any stretch of the imagination except apparently in Mr. Krogen's who I would have thought would have known better.
And if Krogen actually is the one responsible for attaching the name "trawler" to a boat that isn't one, well, then shame on him for misleading the boat-buying public.
Marin, maybe you should explain why you think the public was misled or this is a scam. The original recreational trawlers were 7 to 9 knot displacement hull heavy weather capable boats. Certainly fishing trawlers have those characteristics. Don't remember seeing any adds depicting recreational trawlers towing nets behind them. So where is the scam? How has the public (other than maybe you) been misled? The consumer liked what they saw and purchased it. Sorry if the name offends you. That doesn't make it misleading or a scam.
Ted
kulas44
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So, apparently now Mrs. B is a gopher and James S. Krogen was a liar/misleading/failing in school/scam artist. Tell me again Marin, what are you ? that qualifies you to comment on the renowned designer/architect James S. Krogen. I dont know about Mrs. B, but she seems to have some fairly serious credentials,like, really big time stuff.
Britannia
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Well, we don 't know that he didn't fail English. Just because he was a good boat designer doesn't automatically mean he had a good command of the language.
More likely he'd already fallen for the bogus scam of attaching a term that defines a commercial fishing boat to a recreational boat in an attempt to buff up the image of the recreational boat. Or perhaps he helped create the scam in the first place.
As to doing well for himself, I know of a former Yugo dealer who became a multi-millionaire passing Yugos off as being "just as good as a Ford or Chevy" to an initially unsuspecting public.
I'm not saying a Krogen is a bad boat. I'm saying it's not a "trawler" by any stretch of the imagination except apparently in Mr. Krogen's who I would have thought would have known better.
And if Krogen actually is the one responsible for attaching the name "trawler" to a boat that isn't one, well, then shame on him for misleading the boat-buying public.
As a Krogen owner and a recovering pedant I have to jump in here.
This has been a fascinating thread on which I have many opinions. Let me start here with the "much ado about nothing" regarding the term "trawler."
Firstly, the English language is defined by usage, not by rules of grammar or books written by Latin scholars who wish to arbitrarily tie it to a dead language. [You can ask me later why the split infinitive is just fine.] Language reflects culture and culture changes. So does language. If the word trawler becomes used by a generation to mean a pleasure boat that goes slowly, then that is what it means. I used to be a language pedant, until I realized the absurdity of it. By all means have a rich vocabulary and interesting sentence structures, but let's not attempt to freeze our language to some arbitrary point in its evolution just because that's how it was when we learned it.
I have the original brochure for my Krogen 54. The text is also available online. Here's the key description of the boat that James Krogen described as both a "Passagemaking Trawler" and a "Trawler Yacht":
"Her seagoing heritage stems from the rugged North Sea fishing vessels that must work on, whatever the weather."
So what's wrong with that? It seems to me that Mr Krogen used the term "trawler" as an affectionate hommage to the boat's heritage. Indeed the boat has all the seaworthiness characteristics of its fishing counterpart. How many customers felt cheated when they found out that the vessel came without appropriate gear to haul nets?
Richard
djones44
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I think Krogens were, for some decades, notable power yachts for making sea passages within a certain range and length of boat. In the postwar blue water sailing expanded, and Krogen et al caught that wave for blue water powerboating. By then the dated boats & engines of the 30's and 40's were being replaced.
Wifey B: Shame on Ford too....they lied and misled. Look at the bazillions of poor victims who thought when they bought a Mustang they were getting a horse.
But then I remember the lady who said she had no use for a stupid cell phone, because she wasn't in jail and didn't plan to go.
Now, Spam should certainly sue that their long built reputable name has been corrupted into unsolicited email.
But then I remember the lady who said she had no use for a stupid cell phone, because she wasn't in jail and didn't plan to go.
Now, Spam should certainly sue that their long built reputable name has been corrupted into unsolicited email.
N4712
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Wifey B: Shame on Ford too....they lied and misled. Look at the bazillions of poor victims who thought when they bought a Mustang they were getting a horse.
But then I remember the lady who said she had no use for a stupid cell phone, because she wasn't in jail and didn't plan to go.
Now, Spam should certainly sue that their long built reputable name has been corrupted into unsolicited email.
This right here!!!
Someone give this woman a damn prize!
BruceK
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Don`t get over excited about words like "scam" and "misleading", commonly used by journalists, tabloid press and others, for the purpose of sensationalism.
The harder the fish bite the greater the fisherman`s satisfaction.
[Note; Not a Site Team Opinion]
The harder the fish bite the greater the fisherman`s satisfaction.
[Note; Not a Site Team Opinion]
The depth of ignorance on the part of the buying public can truly be amazing at times. The fact so many here have bought into the notion that a toy recreational boat is a 'trawler" which is a term describing a method of fishing and the boat used to do it with shows how effective this particular marketing scam really was.
The scam, for those of you who still don't get it, was to make an inexpensive pleasure boat aka cabin cruiser appear to be more rugged and "tough" than it really was by sticking the name of a commercial fishing vessel on it in the hopes that the toy boat crowd would be fooled into thinking they were getting a much more capable, strong, better built boat than they actually were. It's marketing hype pure and simple and the fact that so many people, including most of the people on this forum apparently, bought into it shows how successful the hype was and how gullible the boat-buying public actually is.
Yes, language evolves where it makes sense, but that doesn't mean that every incorrect or ignorant use of a word is automatically correct. It just means the user is ignorant, at least of the language.
The fact the boat manufactures picked "trawler" back in the 70s when all this started, was just a happy accident. They could have picked "troller" or "seiner" or "dragger" or "crabber" and it would have worked just as well. Then you lot would be heartily defending the notion that your boats are "recreational seiners" or "recreational draggers" or, if we apply a more modern commercial fishing term, "recreational combination boats."
It would still be as stupidly wrong, but I'm sure the cabin cruiser crowd would have bought into any of these other fishing boat types as heartily as they bought into "trawler."
There are two things that really annoy me: revisionist history and ignorance of one's language. I don't give a crap what a person wants to call their boat. But using the word "trawler" to describe the kinds of boats everyone on this forum has tells me a hell of a lot more about the owner than it does about the person's boat which these days is as likely to be a SeaRay as a Grand Banks.
Ironically American Marine, whose Grand Banks line of boats became the quintessential example of a "recreational trawler" in the boat-buying public's eyes, never called them that. Grand Banks, Llc does today, of course. They have to as the incorrect use of this term has become so ingrained in the boating world they'd totally confuse their market if they didn't.
The folks at American Marine, however, were clearly paying attention in school during the lessons on nouns and they called their new Grand Banks boats exactly what they are: "Dependable Diesel Cruisers." Meaning, for those of you who have a tough time with all definitions, a boat to go cruising in, not the warship, which of course got its name for the same reason only with guns.
The scam, for those of you who still don't get it, was to make an inexpensive pleasure boat aka cabin cruiser appear to be more rugged and "tough" than it really was by sticking the name of a commercial fishing vessel on it in the hopes that the toy boat crowd would be fooled into thinking they were getting a much more capable, strong, better built boat than they actually were. It's marketing hype pure and simple and the fact that so many people, including most of the people on this forum apparently, bought into it shows how successful the hype was and how gullible the boat-buying public actually is.
Yes, language evolves where it makes sense, but that doesn't mean that every incorrect or ignorant use of a word is automatically correct. It just means the user is ignorant, at least of the language.
The fact the boat manufactures picked "trawler" back in the 70s when all this started, was just a happy accident. They could have picked "troller" or "seiner" or "dragger" or "crabber" and it would have worked just as well. Then you lot would be heartily defending the notion that your boats are "recreational seiners" or "recreational draggers" or, if we apply a more modern commercial fishing term, "recreational combination boats."
It would still be as stupidly wrong, but I'm sure the cabin cruiser crowd would have bought into any of these other fishing boat types as heartily as they bought into "trawler."
There are two things that really annoy me: revisionist history and ignorance of one's language. I don't give a crap what a person wants to call their boat. But using the word "trawler" to describe the kinds of boats everyone on this forum has tells me a hell of a lot more about the owner than it does about the person's boat which these days is as likely to be a SeaRay as a Grand Banks.
Ironically American Marine, whose Grand Banks line of boats became the quintessential example of a "recreational trawler" in the boat-buying public's eyes, never called them that. Grand Banks, Llc does today, of course. They have to as the incorrect use of this term has become so ingrained in the boating world they'd totally confuse their market if they didn't.
The folks at American Marine, however, were clearly paying attention in school during the lessons on nouns and they called their new Grand Banks boats exactly what they are: "Dependable Diesel Cruisers." Meaning, for those of you who have a tough time with all definitions, a boat to go cruising in, not the warship, which of course got its name for the same reason only with guns.
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angus99
Guru
As one who believes every word of ad copy I read, why was I not informed of this Machiavellian ploy to mislead the boat-buying public before I bought? I have half a mind to sue everyone from the designer's estate to the yard, previous owner, broker and surveyor for conspiring to prey on my credulous simplicity. Would everyone who fell for this insidious scheme and believed they were buying a boat capable of pulling shrimp nets off the coast of the Carolinas please raise their hands? We can make this a class action.
kulas44
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IIRC, George Beuhler called some of his originall designs "trollers" due to there west coast heritage. For some reason that never really caught on. I guess he wasnt trying hard enough to mislead all us "ignorant" folks. And now of all things, he's trying to convince us that his latest (and most successfull) design is in fact a medium size waterfowl.
O C Diver
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It's taken about 100 of your ranting posts for me to figure out your problem. You're PR Advertising obsessed as that is more or less what you do for a living. You think we actually pay attention to names and the advertising slick that your ilk produce. Here's a hot flash; we're not Walmart shoppers; I didn't read the advertising brochure till after I bought the boat. The name trawler has no more meaning to me than the sheep logo on my Dodge pickup. Calling it a "Ram" pickup truck didn't sway my buying decision.
Do you feel ignorant, duped and scammed by American Marine for marketing a "Diesel Cabin Cruiser" that implies traveling great distances in a reasonable time frame like a warship? Clearly they had no right to mislead you with the term "cruiser" by implying reasonable speed. They probably should have classified your boat as a "Diesel Cabin Slug" as you describe the boat being so incredibly slow. So how long did you live in ignorance under this marketing deception scam? It's hard to imagine that a man of such great intellect could be conned into thinking that 7 to 10 knots was actually "Cruising". I suppose you could try some deflection by saying, " Your needs have changed". But we all know you were suckered by a slick marketing name that clearly deceived you. Sorry you were so ignorant when you bought your "Cabin Slug".
Ted
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