Traveling from Montreal to Albany, NY

We are planning a trip on the Erie Canal to Buffalo and then out Oswego to 1000 islands, NE to Montreal and then to Albany via Champlain Canal. Our 37 Nordic Tug has a bridge clearance of 15'. A hole in my plans is Montreal and places south to Albany. Any help for this section of,our travels would be appreciated. Departing Baldwinsville, NY August first. Planing on being at Norfolk by October first.

Your bridge clearance is perfect. My best advice is to not have a plan, and stick to it.

I haven't done the Erie Canal yet. It may be my next trip, actually. I have done the 1000 islands several times, though. Have you been up there before, or will this be your first time?

Champlain canal has one lock with a 16' height limit.
The limit on the Erie from Waterford to Oswego is 19'.
I understand it's closer to 16' on the Erie after the Oswego turnoff but I've never been.
The Richelieu/Chambly and the Rideau have around 22' clearance. My 21' mast made it under everything but it can be exciting.

Wayfarer said:

I haven't done the Erie Canal yet. It may be my next trip, actually. I have done the 1000 islands several times, though. Have you been up there before, or will this be your first time?

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First time. I am trying to figure out if after the thousand islands is it better to enter the Erie at Oswego and head east or do the champaign canal? It will be our first time for both

Personally I think Lake Champlain is a funner and more beautiful cruising ground than the Oswego/eastern Erie. A little champagne doesn't hurt either, in moderation of course. If you want you can hang a right after leaving the Champlain canal system and explore the Erie for a ways.

If it was me, I'd head up for Montreal and down through Champlain, only because I'd never done it before. By all accounts, Champlain and the québécois canals are a nice trip. The trip eastward from Oneida Lake to Albany is reportedly the less interesting part of the canal. There aren't nearly as many interesting places to stop as there are in the B'ville to Buffalo section. It is pretty, though.

Mister Boatpoker has a good write up on the canal here: http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Cruising the Erie Canal.htm

Forum member CharlieNoble has a great blog as well. From pages 17-15 (backwards because blog) are his cruise up the Hudson and Champlain to Montreal and back down again. Definitely worth a read there.
http://mikepanderson.blog.com/page/17/

I wish I could be more helpful, but those areas are still on my bucket list as well!

Have you considered the Rideau? I highly recommend it. You can cross Lake Ontario, go explore the thousand islands for a few days. But rather than continuing out through the gigantic locks of the St Lawrence to Montreal, back-track (it's not far) to Kingston and check into Canada. Then go up the Rideau to Ottawa. It's an awesome trip and your boat is perfect for it. The culmination is the stair step lock that descends down through the middle of Ottawa depositing you in the Ottawa River.

Now follow the Ottawa River down to Montreal where it rejoins the St Lawrence. You have at least one big lock on the Ottawa, and maybe more but I can't remember. The big one it the Carrilon(sp?) that is something like a 70' drop. Once you rejoin the St Lawrence you will have to go through two of the big St Lawrence locks to get around Montreal, but you bypass I think three others. The big locks are a pain in the butt. Each morning they publish a pleasure craft locking schedule, but that typically turns to rubbish in about 5 minutes. In practice, you pull up to a waiting dock, and wait. Eventually they will lock you through, potentially with dozens of other boats. The wait can be 30 minutes or 6 hours. So the fewer of those locks the better in my opinion.

Montreal, by the way, was one of our all time favorite stops. If you haven't been to one, go see the Cirque de Soleil show. It's right next to the big city marina.

From Montreal you continue down the St Lawrence which is now tidal since you are past the last lock. Travel needs to be timed to take advantage of the current or it becomes difficult to cover the distance between ports. Sorrell is where the Richlieu joins the St Lawrence, and you can head back south to Champlain. We did not go back through Champlain, but rather continued out the St Lawrence, around the Canadian Maritimes, down the coast of Nova Scotia and Maine, back to Gloucester which is our home port.

We blogged about the trip at MVTanglewood.com. Check the index. I think the trip was in 2012.

Have fun!

Some sound advice there. Even if you don't take the Rideau (I would,) you should at least spend a night or two in Kingston. It's a really pleasant city. Lots of stuff to see and do, tons of good food and drink. Confederation basin is a good place to stay. It's right downtown, and I've never had any trouble getting a dock. I've always make a reservation anyway.

Clayton, NY is another one you should make time for. It's a great little town. The Wooden Boat Museum is worth an afternoon on its own.

Pgitug said:

First time. I am trying to figure out if after the thousand islands is it better to enter the Erie at Oswego and head east or do the champaign canal? It will be our first time for both

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Champlain is prettier. The lake and the locks.

Not trying to hijack the thread but have a related question.

Was doing a little homework / preplanning on a trip on the Champlain, probably south to north, thru the lake, from the Hudson up to the St Lawrence.

The guides I was reading stated that Lake Champlain, along with being a "No Discharge" zone, is also a "Zero Discharge" zone, meaning no gray water discharge either, and the guides stated that just locking the valves no NOT sufficient, that the plumbing had to be disconnected and capped.

How can this be done? I don't know of any smaller boats that have any measurable gray water storage capacity, maybe a 5-15 gal tank under floor.

What have anyone passing thru this area done? On most boats you wouldn't be able to much more than just wash your hands, let alone take a shower or wash dishes.

BerettaRacer said:

Not trying to hijack the thread but have a related question.

Was doing a little homework / preplanning on a trip on the Champlain, probably south to north, thru the lake, from the Hudson up to the St Lawrence.

The guides I was reading stated that Lake Champlain, along with being a "No Discharge" zone, is also a "Zero Discharge" zone, meaning no gray water discharge either, and the guides stated that just locking the valves no NOT sufficient, that the plumbing had to be disconnected and capped.

How can this be done? I don't know of any smaller boats that have any measurable gray water storage capacity, maybe a 5-15 gal tank under floor.

What have anyone passing thru this area done? On most boats you wouldn't be able to much more than just wash your hands, let alone take a shower or wash dishes.

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Lake Champlain does have a special rule that requires you to totally remove the discharge hose from your Y valve to your through hull. The normal rules of locking it do not apply.

Not sure about grey water, but it does appear to be the case.

That's enough for me. I am going to travel the Erie up to Montreal and back to the Erie.

I'm not aware of any gray water restriction, but Vermont and NY have a requirement that the blackwater discharge be "visibly disconnected". I'll use this thread to continue complaining to VT about this. It regularly drives boaters away. I actually think it's illegal since it's still federal waters, but until someone challenges it, there will be no change.

Twistedtree- what is the penalty if found to not have the discharge disconnected?

I don't know. I found it all in the on line regs for the two states, but don't recall fines. It became moot for us because we didn't have the air draft and we were only going one way and preferred the erie and rideau.

This isn't the original reg I found, but it pretty much states the same thing except the original mentioned Lake Champlain specifically as Zero Disch also.


SL 7. Marine Sanitation Devices (MSDs)
The MSD requirements on New York
State waters are dictated by
both federal and state law,
depending on where the vessel is operated. On
the state's land-locked lakes, all marine
sewage must be kept aboard the vessel in a
Type III MSD (holding tank) and pumped ashore
at a marine pumpout facility. No sewage di
scharges are allowed on any land-locked lake
located completely within New York’s borders.

On Canandaigua, Skaneateles,
Greenwood (Orange County) Lakes, and Lake George, any
vessel equipped with a toilet, sink, tub, etc., whic
h results in the drainage of wastewater must
have all such material drain into a holding tank
so that it may be pumped ashore at a marine
pumpout facility. Overboard lines
from these systems must eith
er be sealed or removed.


Vessels operating on the Great Lakes, State Canals, Hudson River, Long Island Sound, or on
tidal waters may discharge sewage overboard
only after it has been treated in a USCG-
certified Type I or II MSD. Type I MSDs may
not be used on vessels greater than 65 feet.
Recent legislation now permits localities situated
in tidal areas to adop
t No-Discharge Zones.
In the State of New York the following are No
-Discharge zones: Mamaroneck Harbor, Lake
George, East Hampton, Greater Huntington/Nor
th Port, Port Jefferson Harbor Complex,
Peconic Estuary, and part of the Hudson Rive
r. When operating on No-Discharge Zones,
sewage may only be stored on board a vessel in
an approved Type III devi
ce for later transfer
to a marine pumpout facility. When operating
on Lake Champlain, bo
aters must have their
MSD rendered inoperable and all over
board lines disconnect
ed and plugged.


I don't have any problem with the MSD portion of the laws, all modern vessels are setup for it anyway.
But gray water also?? I'm not familiar with any vessel equipped to contain all gray water.

The same thing applies to Canadian inland waters, the hose from Y valve to thru hull must be removed, locking it out is not acceptable. Portable toilets are outright illegal. Grey water is not an issue. There are also strict rules for salt water. Fines can be up to a maximum of 1 million and/or vessel seizure if unable to pay. Fines are supposedly commonplace but I have never heard first hand of any one being fined ....then again it is not something one would brag about either.

I highly doubt they do random checks specifically on system compliance, rather they check when they have cause/desire to board you for other reasons.

Found a publication that states it, no discharge of gray water into lake Champlain.

Start on page 7 thru page 9

IT IS ILLEGAL TO DISCHARGE TOILET WASTE, RAW
SEWAGE, AND GREYWATER INTO LAKE CHAMPLAIN.

http://www.lakechamplaincommittee.o..._VERSION_-_For_Web_with_Flynn_Ave_Address.pdf



So we're back to the original question, what do cruisers on the lake do? Do transients have to spend thousands on modifications just to pass thru?

I'll tell you what they do. They keep grey water discharge to a minimum and use a minimal amount of highly eco friendly soap when they do, so the water going overboard looks and is very very clean. I have never heard (which to be sure is probably not a scientific sample) of any cruiser being investigated for grey water discharge capability on the lake, even when being inspected for black water which indeed they are very strict about. Skipping the lake over this issue is silly, unless you are just incapable of controlling the amount you discharge and the products you use to clean yourself and your dishes, preferring to produce big flows of sudsy scum on the water.

Thanks for finding that reference. I usually go back to the actual laws since they contain all the exemptions and details often left out of pamphlets like the on you linked to, but for the moment let's assume there is no exemption for transiting boats....

As a Vermont property owner and great supporter of the state, I sadly have to suggest that people NOT transit through Champlain because of these regs. For me, disconnecting, and of course plugging the overboard hoses would have been a major pain in the butt. They are all quit inaccessible, it's a messy job likely to leave shet in the boat, they would need to be disconnected before entering, and then the whole process would have to be reversed on exit. And the gray water rule is simple impossible to comply with. So by the letter of the law, one cannot comply, and therefor should not visit Vermont. I think that's bad for the state.

Alternately, one could do as Caltexflanc suggests and disconnect the black water hoses and just tread lightly on gray water, and hope for the best.

As for the legality of it all, I'm now lawyer, but have looked into it in the past. Here's the logic that leads me to believe these regs are illegal:

1) The EPA allows for no discharge zones (NDZs), but states have to apply for them, show they have adequate pump out facilities, etc., then teh EPA approves them. States cannot unilaterally declare an NDZ in federal waters.

2) The EPA does not regulate gray water discharge (except possible on much larger boats).

3) Federal waters, which are the subject of the EPA regs, are any waters navigable from open ocean. That would make the Hudson and up though Champlain to the Canadian boarder all federal waters.

4) The EPA prohibits states from creating regulations more restrictive than the EPA's on federal waters. States can do whatever they want on state waters, which are waters NOT navigable from the ocean. So Lake George can be regulated solely by NY State.

5) The VT and NY laws are more restrictive than the EPA laws, therefor should not be allowed. They are more restrictive since they require modification of the holding tank system. And they are more restrictive because they regulate gray water.

It seems to me that a simple solution would be an exemption for visiting boats. Then you just need to figure out how to define a "visiting boat".

If I may interject with a friendly stopover recommendation, anyone traveling from Oswego to Kingston really should stop in Sackets Harbor. I'm here for the first time today, and am smitten. Beautiful, quiet little town steeped in history. Quaint downtown with lots of good food and drink. Great stop. Highly recommended.

We spent a few days in Kingston about 5 yrs ago, great little brew pup right up the street.

We were to big for the smaller canals, had to stay St Lawrence and Welland.

Wayfarer said:

If I may interject with a friendly stopover recommendation, anyone traveling from Oswego to Kingston really should stop in Sackets Harbor. I'm here for the first time today, and am smitten. Beautiful, quiet little town steeped in history. Quaint downtown with lots of good food and drink. Great stop. Highly recommended.

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Are you staying at Navy Point? We stayed there about 15 years ago and enjoyed it. Sacketts Harbor Brewery was nice and we enjoyed touring the battle grounds. We love the 1000 Islands, last visited in 2012. It's a 4-5 day trip for us from Buffalo. Be sure to stop in Cape Vincent on your way up, one of our all time favorite ports.

+1 for the Rideau loop. You have time for that route. You won't regret it.

Wayfarer said:

I haven't done the Erie Canal yet. It may be my next trip, actually. I have done the 1000 islands several times, though. Have you been up there before, or will this be your first time?

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Can you tell me what are the high lights of the 1000 Islands?
I am going to spend a few days in Kingston and tour Boldt Castle. But what other places would be worth the stop?
We will be departing in a week so I am trying to make some definite plans.
Thanks

Kingston is a great town. Lots to do and see. Confederation basin is the place to stay. Right downtown. They don't have fuel or pump out facilities, though. They will take reservations via website only, and only if you register more than 48 hours in advance. You'll likely be able to get in there even without a reservation. There always seems to be space available.

I can definitely recommend Clayton. It's a nice town with several marinas, and a nice municipal dock. There's power, water and pretty decent showers and heads. The antique boat museum is an interesting diversion, and there are several nice shops. Bella's and the Wooden Boat Brewery are both very good. Also, if you need any work done, the mechanics at French Bay Marina are very good. There is an unbelievable wealth of spare parts at French Creek Marina. An older gentleman by the name of Wilburt has built an incredible empire there. If he doesn't have what you need, nobody does.

Alexandria Bay is a bit more crass, a bit more party town. There are lots of places to get loud and drunk. I don't recall ever having had a great meal there, so I can't make any recommendations in that department. Riveredge resort has nice docks, a pool, bar, restaurant, power and water, but is a bit pricey.

A big part of the draw for me is the natural beauty of the area. I get lots of joy from just weaving around the islands. Make sure you have good charts. There are lots of rocks and shoals that aren't marked.

The Lake Fleet, Navy and Admiralty islands are beautiful. There are lots of Canadian national park islands with docks and heads, but little else. No power or water. They're inexpensive and fill up quickly. If you're into boat camping, they're worth a look.

You'll want to see Boldt Castle, for sure. I've also heard good things about Singer Castle on Dark Island, but haven't been, myself.

Cape Vincent is a town I remember fondly, but I haven't been there in a long time, so I'm not sure how it looks these days. Same for Gananoque.

Have a great trip! Let me know if you have any other questions.

Wayfarer said:

Kingston is a great town. Lots to do and see. Confederation basin is the place to stay. Right downtown. They don't have fuel or pump out facilities, though. They will take reservations via website only, and only if you register more than 48 hours in advance. You'll likely be able to get in there even without a reservation. There always seems to be space available.

I can definitely recommend Clayton. It's a nice town with several marinas, and a nice municipal dock. There's power, water and pretty decent showers and heads. The antique boat museum is an interesting diversion, and there are several nice shops. Bella's and the Wooden Boat Brewery are both very good. Also, if you need any work done, the mechanics at French Bay Marina are very good. There is an unbelievable wealth of spare parts at French Creek Marina. An older gentleman by the name of Wilburt has built an incredible empire there. If he doesn't have what you need, nobody does.

Alexandria Bay is a bit more crass, a bit more party town. There are lots of places to get loud and drunk. I don't recall ever having had a great meal there, so I can't make any recommendations in that department. Riveredge resort has nice docks, a pool, bar, restaurant, power and water, but is a bit pricey.

A big part of the draw for me is the natural beauty of the area. I get lots of joy from just weaving around the islands. Make sure you have good charts. There are lots of rocks and shoals that aren't marked.

The Lake Fleet, Navy and Admiralty islands are beautiful. There are lots of Canadian national park islands with docks and heads, but little else. No power or water. They're inexpensive and fill up quickly. If you're into boat camping, they're worth a look.

You'll want to see Boldt Castle, for sure. I've also heard good things about Singer Castle on Dark Island, but haven't been, myself.

Cape Vincent is a town I remember fondly, but I haven't been there in a long time, so I'm not sure how it looks these days. Same for Gananoque.

Have a great trip! Let me know if you have any other questions.

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Hey Thanks for the input. Clayton looks good as does the Singer Castle, which we will tour on our way to Brockville. Brockville will be a far as we go and then we will make a U turn back to Oswego.
Appreciate your time.

My pleasure entirely. enjoy!