Passing and being passed

Marin wrote:


Moonstruck wrote:

I didn't look in the Colregs, but Chapman definitely says that a downstresm boat in a restricted channel has the right of way.

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I don't think there is such a thing as "right of way" in the Colregs.* There is "stand on" and "give way," but I don't recall every seeing any mention of "right of way."*Marin, I will give on the semantics of right of way and stand on.* The main reason for this is that a downstream boat with no headway on will still be traveling at the speed of the current with no control.

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The downstream exception applies (downstream superior to upstream)*to the Great Lakes, the "Western" Rivers,*and otherwise designated.* The downward-bound vessel proposes the manner of passsing and initiates the whistle signals.

Marin wrote:

of way" in the Colregs.* There is "stand on" and "give way," but I don't recall every seeing any mention of "right of way."* But I could be mistaken.

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"Right of way" isn't a concept used for normal meeting situations, but it is in the context of the upstream/downstream navigation rule.* It's an exception.

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I am not sure I agree.

I have run rivers in Alaska in jet boats for many years. If going up stream in a river at say 10 knts with the current at 10 knts. I am standing still. A*boat coming down stream is going 20 knts. Going up I can maneuver left and right in an instant.**The boat coming down will be forced all over the place by the current. It will also cover a lot of ground making a turn.
Perhaps I am equating this wrong as a jet boat has no rudder.**Direction is controled by direction of the nozzel* and the current.

Some one has to have the right of way.

Or the get out of the way.*

SD

Are Alaskan rivers subject to the upstream/downstream navigation rule?

Fortunately, all the boats on this four-day cruise were observed going downstream.

markpierce wrote:

Are Alaskan rivers subject to the upstream/downstream navigation rule?

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I'm not sure on that one. I have never heard anyone making an issue of it.

When you are on a river in Alaska.*If something happens it is sort of every man for himself. It is usually hundreds of miles to the nearest anything.

there is only about 3/4 of a million people in*a state as big as 1/2 the country.
*Thats why most people always go up river because you can always float out.
Going down river if something happens you're stuck and out of luck.

*A friend of mine learned the hard way and had to float over 200 miles to the coast when he sucked rocks in his impeller. It took him about 4 days.*luck would have it that he had shot a moose so was able to eat.
*

I have learned to field strip an outboard with just a leatherman and a pair of vicegrips.

If you can't get it done yourself there is no one to call for help.

Cell phones don't work off the road system.

SD



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-- Edited by skipperdude on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 06:23:23 PM

Moonstruck wrote:

Marin, I will give on the semantics of right of way and stand on.* The main reason for this is that a downstream boat with no headway on will still be traveling at the speed of the current with no control.

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That's true, of course.* On the other hand, if the upstream boat loses or removes power, within a few seconds or minutes depending on the size and weight*of the vessel it, too will travelling downstream*at the speed of the current with no control

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skipperdude wrote:I have run rivers in Alaska in jet boats for many years. If going up stream in a river at say 10 knts with the current at 10 knts. I am standing still. A*boat coming down stream is going 20 knts. Going up I can maneuver left and right in an instant.**The boat coming down will be forced all over the place by the current. It will also cover a lot of ground making a turn.

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Everything you say is correct, but not for the reason I believe you think.**The downstream boat is being forced all over the place and making wide turns because of*the compressed time*that results from going downstream.* The turn is made wide relative to the river because of the additional speed over the ground from the current.* The boat is covering a lot more territory in a lot less time, which tends to make*turns seem wider (they ARE wider relative to the*river bottom and banks) and move around within the banks a lot more.* Also, a narrow river generally has all sorts of mini-currents, eddies, and upwelling*that can shove a boat around a lot as it transits from one section of water moving at*x-speed into another* section of water moving at y-speed and possibly in a different direction.* Given the compression of time as you go downriver, all this jerking around can make you feel that you have less control.* And depending on what the currents, eddies, and upwelling*are actually doing, you may have less control from time to time.

Going upriver it appears that you are able to maneuver in an instant, but you actually aren't in terms of your boat's movement through the water.* But heading into a strong current your forward progress relative to the bottom and banks*is slow, so when you put the helm or motor hard over it appears that you are dashing off to the side very quickly.* It appears this way because your rate of sideways movement relative to the banks hasn't been changed by the current but your forward progress has.* So*it appears as though you can*zip back and forth very fast, because compared to your greatly reduced forward progress, you are zipping back and forth very fast.* Where your buddy doing the same thing going the other way is being carried WAY downstream by the current*so he not only moves side to side (at the same rate your are assuming equal boats) he's also*covering a huge amount*of ground down the river which elongates all his maneuvers.

As I said,*this business of how things move in a fluid that itself is moving*is a difficult concept for many people to grasp*for whatever reason.* The FAA has*a question on it's Private Pilot test that asks*what the*difference in the airspeed reading will be*if a plane flying into a 20 knot headwind turns around and flys the other way with a 20 knot tailwind.* It has always surprised me how many students get it wrong.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 04:09:25 PM

Marin wrote:


Moonstruck wrote:

Marin, I will give on the semantics of right of way and stand on.* The main reason for this is that a downstream boat with no headway on will still be traveling at the speed of the current with no control.

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That's true, of course.* On the other hand, if the upstream boat loses or removes power, within a few seconds or minutes depending on the size and weight*of the vessel it, too will travelling downstream*at the speed of the current with no control

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That is true, but the downstream boat is by definition downstream of the upstream boat.* It should pose no or little danger to the upstream boat.* If it loses power, I guess the upstream boat is burdened because he is overtaking.

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Moonstruck wrote:

That is true, but the downstream boat is by definition downstream of the upstream boat.* It should pose no or little danger to the upstream boat.* If it loses power, I guess the upstream boat is burdened because he is overtaking.

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Works for me.* Now, what horn signal should the powerless downstream boat use if it's drifting down on the powerless upstream boat before the upstream boat has a chance to start drifting the same way at the same speed?

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Marin wrote:


Moonstruck wrote:

That is true, but the downstream boat is by definition downstream of the upstream boat.* It should pose no or little danger to the upstream boat.* If it loses power, I guess the upstream boat is burdened because he is overtaking.

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Works for me.* Now, what horn signal should the powerless downstream boat use if it's drifting down on the powerless upstream boat before the upstream boat has a chance to start drifting the same way at the same speed?

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He would indicate that he is underway with no headway with 2 long blasts.* I think if there were imminent danger of collision he would sound the danger signal of 5 short blasts.

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Hiya,
** OK.* The downstream drifting boat shall be known as the downstream drifting boat and the upstream drifting errr......wait...the upstream formerly powered downstream drifting boat in the current currently drifting....ah...hold on...the burdened boat shall let pass the encumbered...um...nope, that's not it.....ah..., way shall be maintained by the give over vessel until such time that the unburdened formerly upstream bound now the lay to vessel....aw shucks...** ** And yes Virginia there IS a sanity clause.* Just not in this forum.

A vessel not under command would sound one*prolonged followed by*two short*signals when visibility is restricted, two red-all round lights spaced vertically at night, and two black balls one above the other, particularly if over 12 meters in length.* But then when do most of us are capable of showing those lights or day shapes?* Five short blasts as other vessels approach*and having a well-lighted boat at night would seem to be the way to go.* Giving radio warnings would be wise.* Anchoring might*be wise*if channel won't be blocked.

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
OK.* The downstream drifting boat shall be known as the downstream drifting boat and the upstream drifting errr......wait...the upstream formerly powered downstream drifting boat in the current currently drifting....ah...hold on...the burdened boat shall let pass the encumbered...um...nope, that's not it.....ah..., way shall be maintained by the give over vessel until such time that the unburdened formerly upstream bound now the lay to vessel....aw shucks...**

And yes Virginia there IS a sanity clause.* Just not in this forum.

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It's unfortunate, but that scene just about sums up any legal document, insurance policy, etc. You never know what you've got until you take it to the judge.

*

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
** OK.* The downstream drifting boat shall be known as the downstream drifting boat and the upstream drifting errr......wait...the upstream formerly powered downstream drifting boat in the current currently drifting....ah...hold on...the burdened boat shall let pass the encumbered...um...nope, that's not it.....ah..., way shall be maintained by the give over vessel until such time that the unburdened formerly upstream bound now the lay to vessel....aw shucks...**

** And yes Virginia there IS a sanity clause.* Just not in this forum.

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RT, how do you have such clarity* of mind.* You are a genius!* Thanks for clearing this all up.

This has been interesting, fun*and a little informative.* Marin always brings an interesting point of view.*

I didn't mean to skip over Capt. Chuck's point, but it was well taken.* Sure, you are responsible for damage caused.**However, I don't think that even a 6 knot trawler yacht would be happy following a 2 knot kayak all day.

Let's get out there cruising and do it safely and courteously.* That is the main point.*

*

markpierce wrote:

A vessel not under command would sound one*prolonged followed by*two short*signals when visibility is restricted, two red-all round lights spaced vertically at night, and two black balls one above the other, particularly if over 12 meters in length.* But then when do most of us are capable of showing those lights or day shapes?* Five short blasts as other vessels approach*and having a well-lighted boat at night would seem to be the way to go.* Giving radio warnings would be wise.* Anchoring might*be wise*if channel won't be blocked.

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If he is*bearing down on another boat, he probably won't be able to find his b------oh never mind.

*

WTF?* I go away for one day and the thread is hijackeed?

if the current is going down stream, YOU GO THROUGH THE* BRIDGE FIRST.

At Sunset Beach, it was a free for all.* People were rude.* I mean real rude.

Also I saw boats hit the cable and ruin their props when they didn't wait for the horn.

Also, there were spiders under the bridge....* They were there to feed the bats.* Only local boaters went under the Sunset Beach bridgde.h

Egregious wrote:

WTF?* I go away for one day and the thread is hijackeed?

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Woody,

Is "hijackeed" like a hybrid form of hijacking?

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Woodsong wrote:


Egregious wrote:

WTF?* I go away for one day and the thread is hijackeed?

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Woody,

Is "hijackeed" like a hybrid form of hijacking?

*





*Sorry Fellers...* Too much antifreeze...* Should have dumped it into the sea strainer and cranked trhough the genset.

The folks here that are joiners might consider getting the local Coast guard aux bunch or YC to have a one day lesson in passing.

Hop scotch with a dozen boats actually feeling what happens when being passed might be educational.

FF wrote:

The folks here that are joiners might consider getting the local Coast guard aux bunch or YC to have a one day lesson in passing.

Hop scotch with a dozen boats actually feeling what happens when being passed might be educational.

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Good idea, FF.* Having had a trawler and fast cruisers, It would be good for both types of cruisers.* When I had my trawler, at the first radio contact I would respond telling them that I would slow down and move to starboard.* Then cut speed to barely steerage way.* Of course, even if*we slowed some would come through dragging their wake with them.* Some ignore it, and don't slow.

When I took the Aux. and USPS*basic boating courses, There was not much material in this area.* When on the active instructors list at our Power Squadron for teaching piloting courses, I would add time for thoe interested in cruising the ICW.* They could stay over time if they wanted.* The two things I stressed were passing and gold symbols on the markers.* The gold triangles and squares are so important.* To my mind, neither subject was stressed enough in the course material.



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-- Edited by Moonstruck on Friday 24th of December 2010 08:35:52 AM

There is only one cure for these problems - mandatory boater education and licensing. For all boaters and all types of boats. And all states (assuming the USA).

After that, enforcement.

I am not holding my breath.

"at the first radio contact I would respond telling them that I would slow down and move to starboard"

The farther the boats are apart the longer the pass will take , 50 ft is plenty.

OK ... Now, how about meeting situations?* One isn't likely to identify the boat until it*has passed by so as to have a pre-meeting communication via radio.* The wake issue should be less since*waves would be met nearly head-on.

markpierce wrote:

OK ... Now, how about meeting situations?* ....The wake issue should be less since*waves would be met nearly head-on.

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Well, not really.* The wake coming off a boat angles back pretty sharply.* Our experience in meeting and passing a boat that's parallel to us but going the other way and putting up a big wake is that the wake will nail us pretty good with regards to rolling if we do nothing.* There is more of a rolling component to the wake than a pitching component. So we always have to turn into the wake to reduce the rolling which, if we do nothing, can be quite violent if the passing boat is a big semi-planing boat that's mushing through the water at a good clip.

Unlike restricted waterways like the ICW, no-one slows down for anybody out here unless it's a posted no-wake zone.* Even though we're just an 8-knot boat, we put out a not-insignificant wake so we always slow down when we pass sport fishermen who are trolling, mooching, or bottom fishing.* We fish this way ourselves in our 17' Arima and we know what an annoyance--- and even a danger if you're standing up in the boat--- being hit by a wake can be.* So we slow down, but from our observation (and the infuriated broadcasts on the radio from the fishermen) very few power boaters here do.* They just plow on through.

Judging by what the boats do, the prevelant attitude in the PNW in passing, meeting, or crossing situations is "I'm gonna do what I'm doing.* Everybody else will just have to deal with it."

The give-way, stand-on vessel rules seem to be rarely followed by powerboaters up here.* Most of the larger boats are running on autopilot--- we have been passed by big, semi-planing yachts where there were plenty of people aboard but nobody was actually at the helm, either down below or up above.* Presumably the helmsman was "nearby" monitoring the boat's progress or something.* We learned early onin our boating that in a meeting situation where we are the give-way vessel, we should make a course change early and obvious so the oncoming boat wil know our intentions.* We almost never see other powerboaters doing this, and in fact we have often had to change our course even though we were the stand-on vessel.* The give-way vessel simply continued (probably on autopilot) on their heading with no indication that they were going to change anything.

I will say that we rarely observe this "I have the right of way no matter what" attitude with sailboaters.* Due to our fickle winds and strong currents, most sailboats we encounter are under power.* I cannot recall a single instance of our meeting a sailboat on a potential collision course and not have them take the appropriate action either as the stand-on or give-way vessel.

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charles wrote:Example

Two big sport fishing boats were approaching me in Fla. I could not raise them on therVHF.
I made a "securite" call but specified the two sportfish at such and so MM.

I am the trawler style approaching you and you have not slowed. In order to reduce damage I will cross the leading boats wake that will place me in front of the following boat. Deal with it.

Needless to say they slowed.

Charles,

You are taking a huge risk in assuming that another boat is monitoring the radio.* If you pulled in front of another boat and there was an accident, you would have been at fault.* Even if you announced your intentions on the radio.

If you want to be safe on the water, you had better assume that all the rest of the boats are being operated by chimpanzees.*

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Marin wrote:

*The wake coming off a boat angles back pretty sharply.* Our experience in meeting and passing a boat that's parallel to us but going the other way and putting up a big wake is that the wake will nail us pretty good with regards to rolling if we do nothing.* There is more of a rolling component to the wake than a pitching component.

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Having been a sailor of 20-something-foot-long boats in windy and choppy waters, I got used to having*them lean in the wind and bounce about the wakes without benefit of radio or horn.* Holding on was often a constant exercise.* Operating a big, fat (35 by 13) trawler with all those modern gadgets will be a new experience.

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markpierce wrote:Operating a big, fat (35 by 13) trawler with all those modern gadgets will be a new experience.

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While I don't have anywhere near the experience with sailboats you have, I did some crewing on friend's sailboats in Hawaii (36' Islander and a trimaran) and I crewed on a co-worker's 30' racing sailboat for a couple of seasons after moving to Seattle.

But based on that minimal experience, I will predict that once you get used to your new boat and the snazzy electronics, you will find actually operating the boat to be very, very simple--- if not downright boring at times--- compared to the sailboats you've had.* I'm not talking about where you can go and what you will see and do along the way, and so forth. Being out on the water is a wonderful experience no matter what you're in.* But in terms of actually running your new boat and driving it from Point A to Point B, I suspect you will find it to be an absolute no-brainer compared to doing the same thing in a sailboat under sail.

You will either enjoy the fact that it is so easy compared to what you used to do, or you will find yourself wishing it were a bit more of a challenge.* I put myself in the latter group, although it's not based on my small amount of sailing experience.

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-- Edited by Marin on Friday 24th of December 2010 02:48:24 PM

If I get bored, I can always play with the fore and aft sails of the steadying rig.