Passing and being passed

The radio protocol thread had drifted over into passing.* It is a subject that I would like to explore further.* This probably applies more to those that cruise the ICW than others.* I can think of no other place that there are great stretches of miles and miles of narrow channels.

First here is my picture of the proper pass.* The overtaking contacts the overtaken boat by radio.* If no contact, then the proper horn signal.* The over taken boat should acknowledge with radio or sound the same signal.* If not, there is a problem.* I will usually ask the overtaken boat to slow, and I will give a slow pass.* With an expenienced skipper at both wheels, it usually works like a little dance.

We cover great distances and cruise usually at 25-27 knots.* Therefore, we do alot of passing.* My pet peave is when there is not acknowledgement fron the overtakn boat.* A boat at hull speed is pushing a good bit of water.* You can tell how fast they are running by the length and sag of the wave on their boat.* If a boat's hull speed is 8.5-9.5 knots I am going to have to go about 10 to*12* knots to pass with any control.* That throws a good sized wake.* I could probably pass at 27 knots with not much more wake.

Boats cruising at 14-15 knots present a different problem.* When they don't respond I just have to blast past to climb and jump their wake and get around.
I do not like waking another boat, but I feel that they have a responsibility to do the courteous thing and do a proper pass.

I would like thoughts on this from faster and slower boats.* I am ready to take the hits.* Hope I gave you all a good pass.

Moonstruck wrote:

I would like thoughts on this from faster and slower boats.*

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It seems to be a non-issue out here.* Boats do pass close to other boats simply because people tend to use the same routes to and through the islands but I've never heard a horn signal used in the twelve plus years we've been doing this kind of boating.* Even the ferries don't use their horns for passes or meets.* Very few semi-planing boats like Bayliners and whatnot that are running at 12, 14, 16 knots or more slow down for anything.* So you keep an eye on them and if they pass close enough to nail you with a big wake we just turn into it and ride it out.

We occasionally hear a reprimand by a boater on the radio to another boater that's passing with too large a wake but since nobody ever says who they are or where they are, just "Thanks for the wake, a*shole," it's impossible to know who they're talking to.

I could probably count all the times I've heard*a boat horn on the water out here*(not counting when it's foggy) on one hand.* We test ours a few times a year to make sure it's working and of course we use it in the fog.* But that's it.

*

I travel at 7-8 knots.* When a boat approaches me from behind I usually slow down to let them pass, but I really appreciate a radio call.* Just say "Polly P. how 'bout a slow pass" and I'll say back "Roger slow pass to my port, thank you." and so on.

I sometimes need to pass a sail boat who is motoring.* If they don't answer radio, I give them two blasts and go on by.

I've found that the RADAR comes in handy in telling me from a long distance whether I'm being overtaken or whether I'm overtaking another vessel when the difference is very small.* This way I can call them well ahead of time and say "hey I'm overtaking you at .5 knots so why not just slow down so we can get this overwith..."

Woody

Marin wrote:


I could probably count all the times I've heard*a boat horn on the water out here*(not counting when it's foggy) on one hand.* We test ours a few times a year to make sure it's working and of course we use it in the fog.* But that's it.


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Marin, because we deal with narrow channels and shoaling waters, I use my air horn quite a bit.* There are many times that an outboatd boat will cut in front of me thinking he doesn't have to deal with my wake.* Many are so noisy that they do not hear their radio or my horns.* You can imagine their surprise when they look back and see a 42' boat on their stern.* Some don't see us then.* I have seen some very surprised looks when they see that big bow easing up beside them.* I will motion for them to slow.* Few do.* Even in our seemingly wide open waters, you had better be careful about straying from the channel.* It can ruin your day.

With our very narrow channels and shallow waters their are many passing stories out there.* It is probably rhetorical to discuss it.

Oh yeah, over here it seems that Sea Rays have the right of way in all situations.* They must teach it when they buy the boat.

*

If I meet a SeaRay in The Rockpile he best slow down.* I'm staying in the middle.

Oh yeah, and if he was listening to his VHF he would have heard my securite call saying I'm coming through and it will be tight in the real messed up section around the VORTAC station.

Egregious wrote:

If I meet a SeaRay in The Rockpile he best slow down.* I'm staying in the middle.

Oh yeah, and if he was listening to his VHF he would have heard my securite call saying I'm coming through and it will be tight in the real messed up section around the VORTAC station.

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Woody, correct about the rock pile.* All those dive service and prop shop signs on the shore ain't there for nuttin.

*

Quite common to slow for passing and even meeting boats on the ICW here (Central Florida) usually a quick call on the VHF works fine.* If there is no response I signal with horn and act accordingly, this works 90% of the time.* Funny thing is the sailboats (Hey, I sail too, don't get me wrong here) seem to be less likely to monitor or respond to*the VHF, but if they are making 6 knots or so, even a relatively slow pass from me*at 9 or 10 knots will*push around a little*most smaller boats who then show 'the finger' or suddenly find the VHF mike to let me know I am 'responsible for my wake", I try to explain sometimes that to slow down (they are inevitably motoring in the ICW) to a couple of knots will allow me to pass at idle which is 5 knots and it will be quicker and much smoother than forcing me to overtake going at*9 or 10.* I usually cruise at only 8-9 knots or so anyway so if I am overtaking someone they have to be going pretty slow and they aren't losing any time, but for the sake of a safer pass it they don't slow down I actually have to speed up a little..
What also irritates the heck out of me is other*power guys that call for a pass*so I slow to idle then they power down to just slow enough to create a huge wake from their bow and stern and wave as they go by knocking the crap out me.* A few weeks ago a guy in a big Bayliner did this to me but obviously didn't see (or more likely didn't have a clue) the Florida Marine Patrol guys in front me just putting along, who promptly fired up the blue lights and were pulling him over for a little chat moments later.* We happily waved as we idled by.

Avista wrote:



*Funny thing is the sailboats (Hey, I sail too, don't get me wrong here) seem to be less likely to monitor or respond to*the VHF, but if they are making 6 knots or so, even a relatively slow pass from me*at 9 or 10 knots will*push around a little*most smaller boats who then show 'the finger' or suddenly find the VHF mike to let me know I am 'responsible for my wake",

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Yep, that has happened many times.* A large sail boat at hull speed is moving pretty good.* Few respond.* Horns just seem to make them mad.* When I come around at about 9-10 knots they reach into their companionway for their mike and give the royal salute.* I will usually come back with, "sorry I didn't realize your radio was working.* You didn't answer my call".* Then it can go down hill from there.

For some reason smaller boats do not know how to kill a wake.* They seem to drag it with them right into their slip.

*

It is rare around here for the overtakEE to slow down to allow a TIMELY wakefree pass. So you end up waking them and then educate them if they decide to finally pick up the VHF. I use the question and answer method...

"So Captain, how fast are you going.....7kts.....and how fast do you expect me to go to get around you in this decade and not wake you".....always a long pause and then the light comes on.

Another issue on the GICW is the terminology reference the towboat captains. While they may not use their horn per se, they do refer to how many "whistles" they will "see you on". ...ie..."...Flyin' Low, we will see ya on the two whistle"... If he is the overtakER in this situation, that means he will pass his starboard to your port. If y'all are bow to bow, then 2 whistles is a starboard to starboard pass.....just like the horn signals suggest. Anyway, if you are in the GICW, you need to make yourself familiar with this regardless of whether you actually use your horn.

Moonstruck wrote:

Woody, correct about the rock pile.* All those dive service and prop shop signs on the shore ain't there for nuttin.


*

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I know a guy who made a living off the rockpile!* Interestingly, he said he also made a living from aligning shafts on BRAND NEW BOATS since the manufacturers were too lazy to let their boats soak for 48 hours and then adjust the alignment, before delivering them.* Just wanted to get them out the door.

Avista -- for some reason, some boat owners seem to think that because they are going slowly, that they must not be making a massive wake.* They don't understand that the area between displacement and planing is giant wake territory.

*

Baker wrote:

It is rare around here for the overtakEE to slow down to allow a TIMELY wakefree pass. So you end up waking them and then educate them if they decide to finally pick up the VHF. I use the question and answer method...

"So Captain, how fast are you going.....7kts.....and how fast do you expect me to go to get around you in this decade and not wake you".....always a long pause and then the light comes on.

Another issue on the GICW is the terminology reference the towboat captains. While they may not use their horn per se, they do refer to how many "whistles" they will "see you on". ...ie..."...Flyin' Low, we will see ya on the two whistle"... If he is the overtakER in this situation, that means he will pass his starboard to your port. If y'all are bow to bow, then 2 whistles is a starboard to starboard pass.....just like the horn signals suggest. Anyway, if you are in the GICW, you need to make yourself familiar with this regardless of whether you actually use your horn.

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John, I have run into that many times.* On the GICW I never heard a tow use a security call.* They just say what section of the waterway they are in and which way bound.

The rivers work the same way.* Just say one or two whistles.* BTW, when meeting or passing in a curve, it is usally better to take them on the inside of the turn.* The tow usually swings to the outside.* Those guys really appreciate knowing what we are going to do.* I have had very few tows that would not answer a channel 13 call.

*

Yep, they are always listening....and if you ever find yourself West of the Houston Ship Channel(Boliver Roads), the use Ch16 as the common traffic advisory freq.

IN almost 5 decades I can count the good passes on one hand.

The technique takes practice ,skill and understanding of boat behavior.

The passing boat stays on the plane and aims for a close pass,(shortest distance ) at the "proper" spot* astern the passer chops the throttle , his boat falls off the plane and when his speed drops to about 1-2K above the target the throttle is advanced to maintain that speed.

He passes close by at 1 or 2k above the target , since the passing boat is usually longer there is no huge displacement wave as neither boat is at hull speed .

When 50 ft ?of target is passed and another 50 ft to get the passers stern wave fwd of the target , its on the pin ,big black belch of stink, almost no time lost , and no excess rock and roll.

Since these skills are seldom understood or practiced , I would simply prefer the passer to run at flank, turn into his wake , and carry on.

" If a boat's hull speed is 8.5-9.5 knots I am going to have to go about 10 to 12 knots to pass with any control."

This is one fallacy , most sail and many displacement power drivers will not pay 3X the fuel burn for "hull speed". So passing can easily be done fairly slowly with no loss of time, and no hull speed wake.

Our 90/90 travels 6.5K in 28ft of LWL,33LOA not a huge distance to get by.

-- Edited by FF on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 05:53:19 AM

FF wrote:


" If a boat's hull speed is 8.5-9.5 knots I am going to have to go about 10 to 12 knots to pass with any control."

This is one fallacy , most sail and many displacement power drivers will not pay 3X the fuel burn for "hull speed". So passing can easily be done fairly slowly with no loss of time, and no hull speed wake.

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FF, agree on all points but the above.* There are many out there running hull speed.* I have passed many large sail boats that were pushing a wake.* Big sag in the water on the side of their boat.* Trawler yachts sometimes do the same.* In a narrow channel, it doesn't make for a good pass.

Thee are many power boaters that do not know how to kill a wake.* When I run up near the stern of the overtaken boat, I chop the throttle completely to drop off plane and let the wake wash under me.* The stern will lift as it does.* Then the pass can be done with no discomfort to anyone.*

We do alot of passing.* Our planned trip back to the Chesapeake this spring is about 1500 miles.* We will see alot of boats.* That's why we run offshore if the weather is cooperative.

*

good thread and info here!

For what I've put out for a Kahlenberg horn*, I think I'll be using it first.* If that doesn't work, perhaps I'll help clutter up the airways.* But then, I don't think I'll be passing many motorboats.* Sailboats?* They don't signal/radio.

*It has taken two weeks for the horn to pass through China's customs.*... Just found out there is a 40% duty on such imports coming from the U.S and 1.5% for imports to the U.S.* Is that how we define "fair trade?"* Fortunately since the horns will be installed on a Chinese export, there won't be any duty.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 10:23:06 AM

The Physics should also be considered when Passing a boat in a narrow channel.

Sush as the Bernoulli effect.* The bodily movement of a ship toward the near bank due to a decrease in pressure as a result of increased velocity of flow of water past the hull in a restricted channel.

Also as you pass the bows will move away from each other while the sterns come together.

SD

skipperdude wrote:

The Physics should also be considered when Passing a boat in a narrow channel.

Sush as the Bernoulli effect.* The bodily movement of a ship toward the near bank due to a decrease in pressure as a result of increased velocity of flow of water past the hull in a restricted channel.

Also as you pass the bows will move away from each other while the sterns come together.

SD

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Exactly, and when in the cut sections like the rock pile behnd Myrtle Beach near Little River you should not do any pasing.* It is only in the icw cuts that it is a significant problem, but that is why an overtaking boat with small rudders needs to have enough water going past the rudders for control------especially if you are dealing with a bow wave off the overtaken boat.

*

Moonstruck wrote:

...*that is why an overtaking boat with small rudders needs to have enough water going past the rudders for control------especially if you are dealing with a bow wave off the overtaken boat.

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I'll let RickB worry about the drag created by "oversized" rudders.

*

Moonstruck wrote:

that is why an overtaking boat with small rudders needs to have enough water going past the rudders for control--.


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*The reason the downstream boat has the right of way over the boat going up streem. Boats moving up stream have more control because of the flow moving past the rudder.,

SD

*

markpierce wrote:

For what I've put out for a Kahlenberg horn*, I think I'll be using it first.* If that doesn't work, perhaps I'll help clutter up the airways.* But then, I don't think I'll be passing many motorboats.* Sailboats?* They don't signal/radio.

*It has taken two weeks for the horn to pass through China's customs.*... Just found out there is a 40% duty on such imports coming from the U.S and 1.5% for imports to the U.S.* Is that how we define "fair trade?"* Fortunately since the horns will be installed on a Chinese export, there won't be any duty.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 10:23:06 AM

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On the ICW here in Florida much of it is*in residential areas so as a courtesy to those folks we simply try to stay off the horns if not really needed.* We usually use Ch* 13 for the 'bridge to bridge" calls and on low power too of course so the airwaves aren't really that cluttered up, at least around here.* I can't even remember when I heard any of the larger rigs includings tugs and tows use their horns, it's mostly the smaller folks with the hand held air horns.* Like was posted earlier*we make a quick call something like "Lady Dee, would you like to slow up for a two whistle slow pass?"* Most of the time the reply is "Roger, thanks" the whole deal takes 10 seconds.

*

I typically run at about 7 knots so I don't pass many boats. I do get passed by a lot of boats though. Not trawlers, mostly smaller center consoles and runabouts. There's no boater education requirement in South Carolina so many of these boaters do not know or care about the wakes they are creating. There's a law in SC requiring "no wake speed" within 50 feet of another vessel. They don't seem to know about that law either and I don't see it being enforced. On one trip on the ICW, the same CC passed and waked me three different times within a half hour or so. I don't expect someone to slow down to 8 or 9 knots in a small boat, but they could stay a little futher away in most cases when they pass.

Out my way, the waterways pass mostly industrial or agricultural areas, and along the Strait there is 24/7 train-horn activity that can be heard from several miles away.

Egregious wrote:

If I meet a SeaRay in The Rockpile he best slow down.* I'm staying in the middle.

Oh yeah, and if he was listening to his VHF he would have heard my securite call saying I'm coming through and it will be tight in the real messed up section around the VORTAC station.

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Woody, here is a picture of Sea Rays coming through the Sunset Beach swing bridge.* Never mind that I and a couple of South bound boats behind me were there first.* There was a SeaRay cruise that came up on the other side.* They all pushed through first and gunned it.





*Yep, they seem to have the right of way!

No wonder.* Checked out all*of Sea Rays*current models and they all look basically the same.* That should attract the same type of personality.* The company's advertising would also strengthen that trend: "Purchase from Sea Ray and you get much more than a boat. You get a lifestyle that is unmatched in the marine industry."

markpierce wrote:

No wonder.* Checked out all*of Sea Rays*current models and they all look basically the same.* That should attract the same type of personality.* The company's advertising would also strengthen that trend: "Purchase from Sea Ray and you get much more than a boat. You get a lifestyle that is unmatched in the marine industry."

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Mark it seems to upset them a little when they are cruising at 22-24 knots, and I pass them.* They will not slow, so if there is room, I will put it up to about 32 knots and jump their wake.* I was behind one where everything slowed down near Cabbage Key, FL.* I asked if he would give me room for a slow pass.* He came back with, "just how fast do you cruise capt.".* I said that, "we had been making 27 knots".* The raidio went quiet.* In a minute or so he came back with, "proceed capt."* He was out of sight about Captiva.* The most courteous SeaRay driver I have run across.

*

skipperdude wrote:*The reason the downstream boat has the right of way over the boat going up streem. Boats moving up stream have more control because of the flow moving past the rudder.,

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That's actually not true, and is a question (when applied to airplanes) that trips up a ton of student pilots taking their Private Pilot exam.

A boat going x-speed through the water in any direction*will go that speed--- and see the same rate of waterflow past the rudder--- regardless of what direction the body of water is moving.* The boat is simply driving around in the water.* The fact the whole*body of water is moving in a particular direction has no relevance whatsoever on the speed of the boat through that water.* Regardles of whether the boat is going upstream or downstream, the boat will be going the same speed through the water no matter which direction it heads,* hence the speed of the water past the rudder will be the same, hence the steering control wil be the same.

What changes is the speed of the boat relative to the bottom and the shoreline and docks and stuff. A boat going upstream will be going--- relative to the bottom and shoreline--- x-speed through the water minus the speed of the water going the other way.* A boat going x-speed downstream will be going--- relative to the bottom and the shoreline--- x-speed plus the speed of the water.* A boat going x-speed directly across the direction of the current will be going--- relative to the bottom and shoreline---*x-speed forward over the bottom*but at the same time it will be carried downstream at the same speed as the current.* So the course over the bottom*will be diagonal.

Boats going downstream may appear to their drivers that they have less control.* They don't.* What they have is less time to do anything because they are going faster relative to their surroundings.* Where the boat going upstream is being slowed by the current relative to the surroundings and so there is all kinds of time to maneuver before getting to something.* But in both cases the boat itself is going the same speed through the water and has the same degree of control*(assuming the same power setting going both ways.)

The way I explained it as a flight instructor was to*think of it as walking through a train.* If the train is going 80 mph toward Chicago and you can walk at a speed of 3mph, is it any harder for you to walk to the front of the train than the back of the train?* No, it's not and you'll be walking 3mph with the same effort either direction.* But relative to Chicago, when you walk toward the front of the train you'll be moving toward Chicago at 83 mph and when you walk to the back you'll be moving toward Chicago at 77 mph.* Your boat in a current is no different.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 02:01:52 PM

Marin wrote:


skipperdude wrote:*The reason the downstream boat has the right of way over the boat going up streem. Boats moving up stream have more control because of the flow moving past the rudder.,

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That's actually not true, and is a question (when applied to airplanes) that trips up a ton of student pilots taking their Private Pilot exam.

I didn't look in the Colregs, but Chapman definitely says that a downstresm boat in a restricted channel has the right of way.* I have asked my niece, Caroline who is a decent paddler, to demonstrate the reason for this.* Oblerve.

Jeff B. this was in New Zealand. You may recognize the place.



*

Moonstruck wrote:

I didn't look in the Colregs, but Chapman definitely says that a downstresm boat in a restricted channel has the right of way.

*

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I don't think there is such a thing as "right of way" in the Colregs.* There is "stand on" and "give way," but I don't recall every seeing any mention of "right of way."* But I could be mistaken.

The reason a downstream boat is considered the stand-on vessel is obvious, or should be.* As I said, it is no less maneuverable than the upstream vessel but it has a lot less time--- and depending on the speed of the current perhaps a LOT less time-- to maneuver clear of things that aren't being moved by the same current.* Where the give-way vessel going upstream has more time to maneuver clear of obstacles because of its lower speed relative to the bottom, the shoreline, and things attached to the shoreline and bottom like bridges and stuff.

But a vessel going downstream in a current and a vessel going upstream in the same current are closing on each other at exactly the same rate of speed they would be if they were approaching each other (at the same power settings) in dead calm water.

Boat speed through the water is generated by two things--- the power being applied to the boat and the wind.* Boat speed over the ground and relative to anything attached to the ground is generated by the power setting, the wind, and the current.

PS-* I suppose I should have said "Boat speed through level water...." as opposed to the water in your illustration where gravity is playing a major role in boat speed

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 02:27:02 PM

We have done about 20 trips on the ICW and have seen and experienced about everything. One of our website posts, says a lot, http://tinyurl.com/dnanlh including some info on passing. But if we want to cite the letter of the law, if another boat does not slow down enough so that you can safely pass, you being the burdened vessel, than according to the rules of the road, you do not pass if you can't do it safely and there is no rule requiring the boat being overtaken to slow down. I know many are going to argue the fact but if it ever came in front of an Admiralty Court, you would be at fault. The biggest issue and complaint we hear over and over is the failure of the boat being overtaken to respond to the radio. We slow a lot of them down by pointing a camera at them as they approach from the stern. We do always answer the radio and slow down for faster boats. Chuck


-- Edited by Capn Chuck on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 02:32:13 PM