Gasoline Engines in a 43

I am considering a 43 foot Tollycraft, actually yearning for one is more accurate.* I note that they come with several power options one of them being gas 454 mercruisers.

My intent is to use the boat at basically displacement speed.**Are there any problems running a gas engine continuously at low rpm in this application?* Will this engine/boat combination run at hull speed provide economical cruising?

How many hours on the engines? How many hours do you plan to use the boat per year? I would be very, very, very, very, very, let me say again, very hesitant to buy a 43 tollycraft with gasers UNLESS your use is less than 75 hours a year and you will only be lake boating with no real cruising. There are a host of reasons I say this:
1) Large, gas powered boats, particularly in this market, are very, very, very, very hard to sell, particularly if the preferred power plant are diesels.
2) E10 fuel and now potentially E15 fuel are serious items of concern and E10 is already having negative impacts on gas powered boats. E15 will be a guaranteed disaster.
3) Gas engines are inherently less safe than diesel boats due to carbon monoxide and the fact that if there is a leak they go BOOM.
4) You will miss out on the low end torque and better handling of diesels if you get gasers.

Personally, I owned a 38 gas powered sedan before I bought my trawler and I promised myself I'll never own a larger gas powered boat again. The only reason I could see getting gasers is if the price differential between that boat and the diesels is huge and worth the downside. As well, if you are honestly just lake boating and not going far from your marina, gasers can work fine. Would I ever buy a boat that large with gasers on purpose though if I was going to cruise at all or wanted to keep the boat a long time....for me the answer to that is no.
Your mileage may vary though and a lot of it depends on your intended use and cruising plans/cruising waters. In this market you ought to be able to get a diesel powered boat for the cost of gasers so I'd wait for the diesels in the right boat.

All that being said, the truth is that a gas powered 43 is better than no boat at all!!! *


-- Edited by Woodsong on Sunday 19th of December 2010 02:45:11 PM

You should be fine. Just be sure the engine comes up to temp. That goes for all engines. If it runs too cold, improper or faulty thermostat, that could lead to problems and cost economy.

As far as actual economy I can't say. I suspect it will be ok as long as you really understand that displaement speed is going to be 7.5 to 8 knot. If you are pushing a big bow wave, but not on plane and digging a big hole and the stern dropping witha attendant big bow rise you will not get good economy. I see all kinds of people doing this.

I'd guess your max displ. speed ~ 8.4k so you should stay below that. Push that limit and it will cost a bunch for the speed increase.

Get a couple of vacuum guages for the manifolds and learn to use them. There will be a point where the vac. drops sharply with a very small increase of boat speed. You want to stay below that.

Of course your idea of economy and mine may be very different. What do you expect?** Find and talk to some other owners or similar boats if you can.



-- Edited by C lectric on Sunday 19th of December 2010 02:51:01 PM

I would side with woodsong. A 43 ft boat with gassers seems mis-matched.

Gas engines always (at any load) have a fuel/air mixture of about 14 to 15 to 1. Diesels can be as low-as 60-1 at idle and near 15-1 at WOT so diesels are about as efficient/inefficient as gas engines at full throttle so you can see where that leaves you at near idle speed. One can push a 32' 8 ton trawler at 7 knots w a 120hp diesel burning 1.5 to 2 gph but that won't happen w a gas engine. I'd guess 3 or 4 gph*** ....maybe/probably worse. In this example if you had a 40hp gas engine you'd be better off burn wise. That's the bad news. Good news is that you'd have a very smooth and quiet engine for a great ride in your boat. More good news is that you can under load gas engines to almost any degree you want because they generate lots of heat at very low speeds (there goes the efficiency) but as C lectric says you need to keep up the coolant temp to propper levels (190 approx). I have a friend in Washington state that has 2 318 Chryslers in his 38' wood Tollycraft. He runs 7-9 knots all the time.
I'd call him if you like.

Not sure what the fuel tanks are made of in the Tollycraft, but ethanol destroys some (not all) types of fiberglass fuel tanks. This type of deterioration can take years. Would really suck to end up with a bilge of E15 (spark Boom).

Ted

I am familiar with the Tolly line, the 43 seldom if at all had gassers. Is it aftermarket conversion per chance? The GM 8.2 diesel is quite common in the 43. The 43 is one very fine trawler.*I've been on a 43 that originally had 8.2s and new John Deeres were installed. Is this vessel on yachtworld.com, where did you see it?

The 44, a very different hull from the 43,*had gas and diesel, I've been on several. Go to theTolly website and look up the specific model information - there is lots of good info there. The 44s make great conversions to diesel, many have been done. This past summer I was on a 44 that had been recently converted using Cummins 6bts, a lovely boat it was.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Sunday 19th of December 2010 04:25:22 PM

You folks really nailed most of the main pro and con points the way I expected them to be. Nobody mentioned the lack of diesel odor, the number one reason I am interested in the gasser. The number one biggest reason I don't think I'll go there is the big bang theory.

While we both hate the smell of deisel, I am afraid of gasoline explosion even more.

Is the 60:1 mix the reason that people say that deisels have less carbon monoxide danger?

We intend to take our next boat up the Inside Passage after retirement. Perhaps we may go all the way to Skagway, who knows.

Budds Outlet wrote:

You folks really nailed most of the main pro and con points the way I expected them to be. Nobody mentioned the lack of diesel odor, the number one reason I am interested in the gasser. The number one biggest reason I don't think I'll go there is the big bang theory.

While we both hate the smell of deisel, I am afraid of gasoline explosion even more.

Is the 60:1 mix the reason that people say that deisels have less carbon monoxide danger?

We intend to take our next boat up the Inside Passage after retirement. Perhaps we may go all the way to Skagway, who knows.

Click to expand...

The standard arguments apply, and all of them seem to be here.* Now, let's talk about actuality.* Many people who used the cost argument against diesels, said I can buy alot of gasoline for that cost difference.* True-------if they will.* What I seem to find is that the gasoline boats sit at the dock, and the diesels go cruising.* It is hard to stomach the high marina prices and less efficiency of gasoline.* So, to me if you want a dock queen that could be hard to sell a gasoline boat is the way to go.* If you want a boat for cruising and resale, you can't beat a diesel.* YMMV.

*

I'm not much afraid of the "Big Boom". I've only seen one boat go boom. I'm 71 and I've been all around boats since I was 10. The people who go boom are irresponsible, stupid or both. Complacency enters into the picture w everybody to some degree though. Once you've cranked a gas boat up 639 times and haven't blown up it seems safe. But if a fuel line ruptured while underway pissing gasoline all over the place * * * ..well * * ...but Iv'e never heard of a responsible person blowing themselves up. I'd put gas engines in my boat if not for the obvious reasons for the smoothness and quietness. *A very smooth and quiet boat would be almost ecstasy to me.

sunchaser wrote:

I am familiar with the Tolly line, the 43 seldom if at all had gassers. Is it aftermarket conversion per chance? The GM 8.2 diesel is quite common in the 43. The 43 is one very fine trawler.*I've been on a 43 that originally had 8.2s and new John Deeres were installed. Is this vessel on yachtworld.com, where did you see it?

Click to expand...

Yes, its on Yachtworld.com*
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1980/Tollycraft--2027125/Olympia/WA/United-States

*There are two others on Puget Sound for about the same price and they are both deisels.* One has the 8.2 Detroits and the other has 3208 Cats.* I'm not budgeting a repower into a boat purchase so one of*the diesels is probably my most likey target unless another one comes on the market.

You're in the right place to find a good Tolly. I would avoid the 8.2 diesel like the plague. I was on a 43 Tolly with 3208s, 210 hp NA version. It was a very nice vessel. The last year for the 43 was 1985 I believe. For grins, check out the 48s.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Sunday 19th of December 2010 06:08:57 PM

DavidM wrote:

I just went through the same, gas vs diesel, debate. The boat was built in gas or diesel and was a late 80s Cape Dory 28 Cruiser. The diesel boats were about $15K more than the gassers. I plan to use the boat for about 100 hours each year and*cruise at 12*kts where the gasser would use 9 gph and the diesel 6 gph. The difference would add up to about $1000 per year.

David

Click to expand...

Hi David, good to see you over here.* I remember your discussion on the Downeast Cruisers site.* It was valid then as it is now.* As I said, YMMV.* I think there is a big difference between a 28' single run at displacement speeds and a 43'

I have a close friend with a 36' Carver that gets little use.* In fact he has run the entire ICW and many other places on my boat.* His is a planing hull that to cruise at the designed cruising speed costs almost $10.00 per mile in gasoline.* Because the diesel boats at the Yacht Club cruise at over 20 knots, he can't keep up with them without even exceeding that.* About $1,000.00 in fuel for a 250 mile trip is hard to take.* Therefore his boat sits at the dock and has been for sale for almost 2 years.* He and I had the same discussion before he ordered the boat.* Now, he wishes he had bought diesels.*

I think that his boat is right on the border line at where diesels make alot of sense.* A 43' I think is definitely in the diesel category.

I know that you will get alot of use out of the Cape Dory.* They are a pretty rugged boat with a salty, downeast look.

*


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Sunday 19th of December 2010 07:53:16 PM

Hey all, Say have any of you diesel powered folks been successful with the waste vegetable oil conversion.
There are some appealing deals on trawlers at the moment but the fuel cost is a real blister.
Been shopping for a sailboat but I would be jazzed to get a trawler and hedge my fuel expense.

I am 45 and have seen 2 boats go BOOM!!! ANd one of those incidents haunts me to this day. CO poisoning would be the other reason. I like air conditioning. I like running the generator. I will not sleep if there is a gasoline engine running in my boat. Also, diesel engines thrive on work....gasoline engines cringe....I cringe when pushing them hard. I know my engine(s) enjoy a good workout if they are diesel powered. That may be an emotion, but that is why we are here now isn't it?

Baker wrote:

I am 45 and have seen 2 boats go BOOM!!! ANd one of those incidents haunts me to this day. CO poisoning would be the other reason. I like air conditioning. I like running the generator. I will not sleep if there is a gasoline engine running in my boat. Also, diesel engines thrive on work....gasoline engines cringe....I cringe when pushing them hard. I know my engine(s) enjoy a good workout if they are diesel powered. That may be an emotion, but that is why we are here now isn't it?

Click to expand...

Right you are John.* I know from previous discussion with Dave that he is sort of a minimalist and doesn't use a generator.* I have had two friends who were very knowledgable about boating die from CO poisoning on their boat.* One remained in a coma for 10 years before dieing.* They were anchored in a cove reading on a Sunday afternoon, and went to sleep*with generator and A/C going.* Even on my diesel powered boat I have CO detectors.

Like you, I have been in marinas when two boats went boom!* However, with careful maintenance, bilge checking, proper ventilation, and fume detectors that risk should be minimized.* If you can swing it, diesel is better.* If not I would just buy a gasoline powered boat and be very careful.

*

I'm only 36 and I have already seen one boat go BOOM! 36' wellcraft express blew up @ the fuel dock at our marina and sent 2 to the hospital. Another couple that we are friends with almost died in a raft up with some friends (we happened to not be on the lake that weekend) due to CO poisoning in their less than 1 year old gas powered sedan cruiser made by a very well known builder.

But ignoring the gas safety issues.....as a yacht broker I simply cannot overstate to anyone reading this the difficulty you will have in selling a gas powered boat in this market. Only buy a gaser if you are getting it even WAY below today's FMV. My 2005 Silverton 38 Sport Bridge took 2 years to sell and it was absolutely, positively spotless and immaculate. The engine room was cleaner than most boat salons! The depreciation on a newer gas powered boat will make your head spin and you simply don't want an old gas powered boat with high hours. My advice to folks that buy larger gas powered boats these days is to put a sales sign on it the day after you buy as it will take you 2 years to find a buyer and by then you may actually be ready to sell.

I see this every day and really, I could not state enough how much happier you will be with the diesels. Besides, smelling like a diesel mechanic is kind of fun!

Really- the best suggestion I could make would be to see if you can sea trial the same boat with gasers and then another of same model with diesels. You will instantly know which power plant you would rather have...the difference in handling and performance is beyond unmistakable.

Ok...off my soapbox!

Woodsong, I really appreciate the advice from a broker that deals with this on a daily basis. I will most probably want to sell the boat during my lifetime and while I realize I will sell it for less than I pay for it, being able to sell it at all will be the most important.

As to smelling like a diesel mechanic, I don't think the Admiral will see that as a positive. However, daughter #2 says she likes the smell of WD-40! I think that must have come from helping me wrench my motorcycle when she was young. She's now a well paid mechnical engineer.

Do diesels more completely burn their fuel thus producing less CO than gas engines?

-- Edited by Budds Outlet on Sunday 19th of December 2010 09:43:11 PM

-- Edited by Budds Outlet on Sunday 19th of December 2010 09:43:52 PM

Hey Woody,I didn't know you were a broker! I have a lot of respect for you not strut'in your business here on the forum and you've been a great contributor. Thank you Tony.
Spot on about the gas boat value. BUT * "You will instantly know which power plant you would rather have...the difference in handling and performance is beyond unmistakable."
I would think the test ride would heavily favor the gas boat w sooo much more smoothness and probably about 1/3 the noise. Then there's the smell issue. Dosn't bother me but many or even most don't like diesel smell. Any performance elements noticed on a test run should also favor gas. * * ?????????

Gee, if you don't smell diesel, you're not on a real boat.*... Feel blessed if you don't smell sewage.

Eric,
I'm here to talk trawlers and learn from you all and that will always be my reason for hanging out here! Truth be told, I do two things...I own a commercial real estate company (which is what makes me be able to afford to be a boater myself!) and yes, I am a yacht broker too and doing pretty darn good at it as well but shhh....that's our secret that I'm a broker! Boats are my passion and I guess I like selling things on land and sea. *

I think it depends on which diesel engines we are talking about. *If some Detroit Diesels, then yes, the noise is a major factor! *I've got a little 135hp perkins in our Monk and that thing is as about as quiet as a mouse. *Ok, maybe not THAT quiet, but pretty darn quiet for a diesel....not terribly louder than the twin 8.1 HO Crusaders I had in our Silverton. *Up on the bridge you really can't hear our engine at all and unless at too low of an RPM at idle, it's not bad in salon whether at idle or beyond. *Here's a vid from our flybridge:


And from our salon:


Both were taking @ about 7.5 knots and the noise you here from the bridge video is the sound of water, not an engine.


No doubt diesels are typically a good bit louder and rumblier but if you drive the same model one with gasers, the other with diesels, performance will just about always favor the diesels, unless you want an absolute quiet ride and no odor (gotta love that ODORLESS Carbon Monoxide!!).


Personally though, I think the writing is on the wall that gas engines in large boats is pretty much a disaster waiting to happen as we bring more E10 and soon E15 online, fuel prices climb, etc. *Gasers have their place and serve their purpose (i.e. great lake boats and I sell a lot of those type of larger lake boats in the 38-50' range) but 9 times out of 10, IMO, diesels win hands down. *I know I have no intention of ever owning a large gas powered boat again but that is just me! *I think Baker said it earlier...you can feel gas engines cringe at the thought of working hard while diesels want to go and go and go harder still.


From an economic standpoint give me 2 identical models of same age and equipment except one gas and one diesel and the diesel powered one will sell before the gaser 9.9 times out of 10 and that is a fact. *Exception to this would be large boats that are most often gas powered, say like the carver 406 aft cabin, or the sea ray 38 sundancer, etc. *I like to be model specific and the Tolly 43 is a 30,000 lb boat per specs, surely more after gear, fuel, and water. *That is a LOT of weight to push around with gas engines.


P.S. Only 3 tollycraft *43 sales in all of 2010- would you like to guess how many of those were gas powered? * (that would be zero!)


-- Edited by Woodsong on Sunday 19th of December 2010 10:57:27 PM

DavidM -- You say you wouldn't worry about a DD 8.2 - I take it you have owned and maintained one that is 25 years old?

The last thing I'd want in a trawler is a gasoline engine.* Trawlers and diesel engines are nearly synonomous.** They need each other.

"Large, gas powered boats, particularly in this market, are very, very, very, very hard to sell, particularly if the preferred power plant are diesels."



This is purely a local problem.

On the great lakes almost every boat that CAN be moved with gas IS.

The short season , ease of maint , and lower maint costs , as well as the local desire to marina hop* AT SPEED! all is in favor of GAS.

Over the decades the lakes folks have learned how to live well and prosper in the tiny season they endure.

Underloading and slobbering is a DIESEL hassle from too light loads , not a gasser hassle.

A simple look at the number of gas boats vs diesels shows the EXPLOSION myth is Bull Sh/T.

A Mercruiser does have hassles with its cheapo exhaust , Crusaiders would be prefered if re-poweing.

"Will this engine/boat combination run at hull speed provide economical cruising?"

Economical cruising is NOT done at hull speed .

Hull speed is the sq rt of the lwl times 1.34 and is 2x or 3x as much fuel burn as using .9 to 1.15 as the* multiplyer.

The big gas engines are usually chosen where 200 hp or less (each) is required to get up on the plane to move rapidly to the next O'nite spot.

If you are heading 2000 mi to the Carib for the winter Gas would not be the best choice, for the usual 100 hour a year inshore boater , gas would be first choice.

Get and read Dave Pascoe's book before opening your wallet!.

-- Edited by FF on Monday 20th of December 2010 06:18:18 AM

Surprisingly, diesel boats burn too. I saw the remains of 16 of them in Portland 5 years ago in a dock fire.

I'm with Fred and Eric, a well maintained gas vessel is just fine in the right short trip application - in fact quite superior to diesel for anything up to 34' or so in the typical Searay or Formula. A reasonably new gas Formula in the mid 30 foot range*with the latest*EFI big block V8s is one very fine vessel for lake or FL fun. High speed diesels, in these same vessels,*above 250 hp with outdrives have been a maintenance headache.

The "explosion" of outboard sizing and numbers on an Intrepid or Yellowfin are another gas phenomena. And this is with in excess of 300 gallons of fuel in the bilge of these 70 mph beauties.

As noted by Woodsong and others, the bigger issue today is the alcohol political lobby for mandating E-10 or 15 in the US. The latest* bills before Congress*extends this largess. The issue is well beyond boats as all too many cars and pickups older than 2006 (this is according to latest from EPA) are at risk for fuel system issues.

One thing for sure, the Tolly*43s and 44s that have racked up 2 - 3000 hours on their 25 year old*454s are a testament to gas in a big boat. And I would guess there are about about 1.5 + million inboard gas vessels, older than 20 years and*larger than 20 feet operating in NA.

All this diatribe aside, unless for conversion purposes, I would not buy a larger Tolly with gas for salt water distance cruising. Do not, I repeat, do not venture into a Tolly with DD 8.2s without good hands on skills for diesel and cooling system maintenance or a big wallet.

No doubt gas engines have their place and serve their purpose...I would just hesitate to have a 43 Tolly with gas engines when right now on the market you can get the same boat with diesels, preferably the 3208's.
Saying all of this though, I am sure owning a 43 Tolly with gasers would still be fun and if bought at the right price could very much be worth it....just make sure you buy it right I guess is all I am saying.

Never seen a diesel boat go BOOM... Gasoline boats exploding is NOT a myth. ANd if you think that, you are likely the same dumbass that smokes cigarettes while putting gas in your car because you haven't exploaded..... YET!!!! You get on a gas boat and read all of the placards reference blowers and such. You get on a diesel boat and no such placards exist. An engine room blower is NOT even required on a boat with diesel engines. IT IS REQUIRED on a gas boat with inboard engines....complete with placards on how to operate it. I wonder why!!!

Actual numbers for a conversion of a 39 Angel from Ivecos to Cats: over 100k. Could have been more but the owner found a pair of Cats for cheap. He got started before knowing all the things that had to be done: Engine beds, Water lines relocated, Exhaust runs moved and increased diameter, electrical supply moved and redone, shafts moved and increased in diameter, new props, hatches enlarged. Etc.

A pace 36 that was on sale here did a Yanmar repower which also included an 8kw generator....$85k....TTL out the door.

I saw* a beauty of a gas fire at Lake Powell a few years ago - at the gas dock as a houseboat was refueling. Old gas fill hoses the culprit. Years ago in St Louis a house boat burned with leaking fuel tanks, - caused by a jealous wife shooting into the boat as the husband and his secretary lunched aboard.

The old boat gas issues will dramatically escalate unless the government backs off the ethanol loading - which likely won't happen. But with new boat gas sales outpacing diesel about 50 to one, and with half drunk smokers and ill maintained boats galore, gas BOOMs will continue to happen as you note John.