Repowering with a Tractor Motor

I am in no way an engineer, and in fact I have no idea what the pros and cons of your project are Janice, but I've followed your blog a bit, and I truly wish you a heartfelt good luck in whatever choices you make.

manyboats said:

Another idea ....
Put a 90 elbow between the cooler/riser box and the exhaust manifold mounting the riser/box crossways or athwartships. Rigid mounting to keep the riser moving in sync w the engine will solve the mounting issue. Some changes in the wet exhaust run may be necessary.

Re the space in your boat this could be an advantage and a side exhaust may even become attractive.

Click to expand...

The riser/manifold will run cross wise.

Hoses go forward to the heat exchanger (also mounted athwartships)

Then to the water lift muffler and out the side of the boat.

And thank you for the words of wisdom. It's taking me time to wrap my head around it all and there's a lot to comprehend, at least for me.

The water pump is bought -- it's big. It's a KubotaHydPump-GP036-2

I have gathered the input and tomorrow will have a long chat with the mechanic. I need to better understand the why's for the choices made. And I've PM'ed some for permission to quote you online (in my article) as I want the mechanic to read your words too.

Please, if you've been contacted, say yes. This is important to me and for anyone else who is following in my wake.

We all can miss important items -- minutia is often far more important than we would like to think and it's the little things that doom some projects. It's not just one thing though -- often it's a cascade effect.

I do not want that to happen to my Seaweed. This has been a nightmare and I want to make sure that the choices made are smart ones. Project Management is not a strong suit of mine so your input (all of you!) is critical so I can understand potential pitfalls, and hopefully correct them.

Thanks. And it's okay. I know everything I've done has not been 100% right by the book. Improvisation is like that -- some stuff works and some does not. I'm always smarter in hindsight. And I am capable of learning.

Janice,
Here is my riser setup. Built by Marysville Marine Exhaust in Marysville WA for $750. All SS and not water jacketed .. just water injected.

The green hose carries the spent seawater to the near top of the riser (fairly high) and the "T" at the bottom of the green hose is for water injection to the PSS shaft seal.

The riser is mounted w 4 studs on the exhaust manifold. One of the studs can be seen and they are further apart that it looks. Re Vibration and mechanical security the outlet rubber hose to the lift muffler is quite stiff and my plastic (Poly Flex) engine mounts don't allow much engine movement even at idle. But not much engine vibration is felt on the boat.

I've never seen underneath the heat shield blanket so don't even really know what it looks like but it's very effective shielding the engine compartment and stray human parts from getting burned on the exhaust parts. The insulation on that red wire is completely intact and not damaged by the exhaust.

I was in Alaska when this was installed on Willy. I had no input re the design short of telling MM Exhaust about my boat. Everything was what they thought it should be. Don't know how I could improve on it after almost 10 years and 800 hrs of use. I had fairly constant trouble w the cast iron that was on my Yanmar (previous boat) and sought out a more trouble free riser. The typical cast iron risers are fine but require replacement close to once a year. They don't take much trouble to replace and clearly are the cheapest riser solution. Things get more complicated as the riser is built higher.

So I submit the standard hardware usually employed for this mission is simple, direct, economical and effective. Any variations takes one into the world of experimentation. A place I'm fairly comfortable in to an extent few here would follow my trail.

As I've said I kinda like your "riser/manifold" but re what some of the other more conservative guys have said there is definitely room for troublesome events or "miss-functions". Loosing your coolant or even catching fire probably won't happen and if anything resembling that happens you have good experience and seamanship to deal w whatever.

Marine automotive engine conversions were quite common in the 50s and many people did much or even all of the conversions themselves. Anyway if you do implement your over and under engineered "riser" do share your experience and include all the details.

Go it, and thanks Eric. You've been very helpful. Thank you.

Janice, how far into the project are you -- really?


In terms of money, of course, but also intellectual and emotional commitment?


Far enough in that there's no turning back? Or investigating/comparing other options?


I'd suspect folks here can help, either way... but knowing how much flexibility you have at this point could maybe help focus comments...


-Chris

Ranger I think she's committed, at least in her mind.

I can't imagine a small elbow costing $500. And re what Marty (PackMule) said there's plenty of used stuff available however an elbow would not be a good thing to get used unless it was .. not used.

I originally scanned Janice's link but just read Doug R's comments and I also thought the air pocket would be a problem but simply rerouting the small plumbing nipples may/should solve that problem. I would be thinking in on the bottom and out on the top near the water injection nipple. I also noticed the shape of the "tank" would require 45 degree elbows not 90s as it appears in the drawing.

At this point I see two very big problems. My suggestion of cross mounting and "V" struts will require very stout hardware and excellent mounting points. Success? Probably but maybe not. The other problem is metal expansion and contraction. The outside of the box will always be relatively cool but the internal pipes and 45s will be very much hotter. The box will want to grow in all directions but the pipe will grow lengthwise much more so. It will want to bust out at one end. Also the cool water injection pipe will be attached to the outer mass of metal (box) and the internal heavy and very hot pipe. Makes me wonder if there are any other weldments inside attaching the internal pipe to the outer box. If so there will be a great tug-o-war going on between the box and internal pipe. If not a lot of forces will be acting on the one thing holding (or trying to hold) the internal water injection pipe to the box.

Janice, Doug Rs input seems very good to me. Read it again and see if anything comes to mind.

It's possible some very inexpensive steel pipe and elbows (90s) plus an iron marine elbow could replace the magnificent box but at this point I don't think it's viewed as an option but at some point that may be a consideration.

What does your Exhaust manifold look like Janice? It's hard to imagine a two stud/bolt attachment.

ranger42c said:

Janice, how far into the project are you -- really?


In terms of money, of course, but also intellectual and emotional commitment?


Far enough in that there's no turning back? Or investigating/comparing other options?

Click to expand...

Time wise Chris? Too much.

The engine must be used. I simply cannot replace/switch that part. The peripherals however? I'm not tied to anything.

Living on a boat that doesn't move is simply sub-standard housing with a nice view. It is necessary for Seaweed to be mobile and she's not.

I love my boat.

What's done so far: (and I will not admit how long this had taken)

#1) Hayes Bell housing ordered, bought/installed (6 weeks between order and delivery)
#2) braces for motor mounts installed (aluminium angle iron thru-bolted to stringers)
#3) Pump bought
#4) manifold/riser built

it didn't fit. Okay, measurements were perfect, everything built then the motor was put on the motor mounts, aligned perfectly, and the bulkhead (structural) was in the way. Barely.

Options included adding a bend (pipe, not box) in the unit or moving the motor forward. Decision made to go forward. That involved the purchase of:



#6) heat exchanger gifted to me

Those are the major components done. I *was* thrilled to be THISclose (theoretically) to completion. It's my understanding what is left is to align the motor, install water pump and begin sea trials.

Okay, wiring too and add the alternator. A friend on Bemused has a 60amp alternator that may fit from when he upgraded to a Balmar 120. We are not sure if it will fit -- if not I'll give it back to Rick when I get to the east coast. Unless he comes over here first.

As far as the engine goes: I'm using the Kubota. That's a certainty -- can't afford another and this one is paid for. The marinization is the sticky spot. Nothing is written in stone though of course I would prefer to use what I've got rather than spendmore money that I do not have.

Side note: For some reason (okay, I pay my bills on time) I have good credit and therefore have options financially. That still means I have to pay the bills though and that concerns me. [I was one of those TARPed out of existence when "we're from the government and only rich bankers will be harmed" during the banking crisis so my nestegg is gone.]

HOWEVER, I am not intransigent regarding this project. If there's a better way (that is within my budget) I'm open to change. And that's why I posted here and elsewhere. I'm hearing one side (my mechanic's) and needed outside input.

It's like when Son was small. His surgeon was "the" doctor who wrote the books on how to do the surgery. Well, results were less than spectacular and no one in the Miami area would suggest any other solutions. Finally I took him eight hours away to another physician of equal stature in a related specialty who had his own sense of direction. I followed that one and though not perfect, it was better.

[For the curious: Son was born with a severe bi-lateral cleft lip and palate. In the 21 years he lived (had a heart attack 13 April 2002) he spoke clearly and perfectly two days. Then the surgery ripped loose. There were multi-pronged efforts to fix the birth defects and related issues, vision, hearing, speech, etc. And I loved him just as he was...]

Anyway, that is probably far more detail than you wanted, but there you have it. I am open to change. And I do welcome suggestions.

Kubota motors were used in Onan gensets, I have one. MDKD-8, 18hp. Lots of parts available.

Good luck with your project.

Quick Question for Eric. When I went to put in a link to Marysville Marine Exhaust I'm coming up with a company called National Marine Exhaust. Is that the same place that built yours?

Google says: nationalmarineexhaust.com/
Aug 26, 2014 - We are an OEM supplier of the largest boat builders in · the US. ... Our exhaust solutions can improve mileage, extend the ... Seattle, WA USA.
Google+ page · Be the first to review
3710 136th St NE, Marysville, WA 98271
(360) 659-2983

Thanks.

Yes my bad.
National M E it is.
Even the big fishboats have their exhaust systems made by NME. Very well respected company.
The $750 price I mentioned was from 10 years ago you should know.

In the Philippines using automotive diesel engines in boats is done all the time and is consider normal. I have an engine from a front end loader built in the late 60s and also have an automotive transmission in our boat which has a clutch and three forward gears.
Really what I wanted to say is this living simple can get pretty complicated.
Best of luck on your project and thinking out of the box.

janice142 said:

Time wise Chris? Too much.

The engine must be used. I simply cannot replace/switch that part. The peripherals however? I'm not tied to anything.

...

As far as the engine goes: I'm using the Kubota. That's a certainty -- can't afford another and this one is paid for. The marinization is the sticky spot. Nothing is written in stone though of course I would prefer to use what I've got rather than spendmore money that I do not have.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, that makes it easier to only focus on ideas that'll further your goal.

Have to admit, I got nothin'. Dunno so much about how to marinize an engine from scratch.

The only thought I had been wondering about earlier -- and the reason I asked -- was whether it'd still be feasible to get an already-marinized version (I think you sad Beta?), or another likely already-marinized engine from somewhere (somebody said used, not yet rebuilt Yanmars) and pay for some of it by flogging the Kubota.

Off the table... Full speed ahead!



No doubt in my mind it can be made to work. I've got a 22-hp Yanmar in my tractor, and it runs like a champ. I'd expect it'd be similar to recycle that rascal into a boat like yours!

-Chris

ranger42c said:

Fair enough, that makes it easier to only focus on ideas that'll further your goal.

Have to admit, I got nothin'. Dunno so much about how to marinize an engine from scratch.

Click to expand...

I don't either Chris, and I'm not having fun. Okay, maybe a bit because I do like to understand how things work. It's just the process has been so drawn out...

At present I'm doing some serious pondering. There's been a lot of information to process (thanks to TF'ers) and tomorrow is the day of reckoning with the mechanic.

I sent him links to my article with the notes from folks here added to the piece. And on Thursday will listen to his response. The offer privately of an exhaust manifold plays into it too. Truly, I just want this job done.

Project Management is a definite skill set I lack. I've let this slide all too long and been complacent when I should have been a squeaky wheel. However, I am learning.

Wish me luck. Prayers too would not be unwelcome. And for the folks who are shopping through my Amazon links, wow and thank you! This month so far is the best ever (since 2005) so I'm grateful. Very, very grateful.

Thank you. I am humbled by the kindnesses and the education you've been willing to impart. It's been far more helpful than you can possibly know.

Tomorrow I'll let 'cha know what the fallout is. Argh.

Good luck Janice. Hope everything works out.

What are these Amazon links? Stuff for sale?

cardude01 said:

Good luck Janice. Hope everything works out.

What are these Amazon links? Stuff for sale?

Click to expand...

Oh me too cardude01. So much so! I've let this go on far too long and could kick myself. I was supposed to be in the Christmas Boat Parade if that tells you anything. Argh.

I need to bone up on my Project Management skills. I used to have them. Heck, I was a manager decades ago. Just writing about the problems has solidified my resolve though. That's helpful too.

I placed Amazon links (a button in the top left corner of every page) on my site. When someone uses my link to buy anything on the Amazon site, a small amount is deposited into my bank account.

Prices are the same whether you to use my link go directly to Amazon.

Anything bought through my link helps. Even one cent books count toward the total items, though the free Kindle books don't.

I feel your pain, Janice. Dragging on with projects began for me about 3 years ago. I still have two that are unfinished after 2 of those years. I'd like to blame sources outside myself but in the end, it's me. Meanwhile, I'm working to complete the ones I have and not taking on any more till they are.

What is the weight of this boat that will operate with a 18Hp peak engine rating?

janice142 said:

I don't either Chris, and I'm not having fun. Okay, maybe a bit because I do like to understand how things work. It's just the process has been so drawn out...

At present I'm doing some serious pondering. There's been a lot of information to process (thanks to TF'ers) and tomorrow is the day of reckoning with the mechanic.

I sent him links to my article with the notes from folks here added to the piece. And on Thursday will listen to his response. The offer privately of an exhaust manifold plays into it too. Truly, I just want this job done.

Click to expand...

It'll get better, as you proceed.

A thought did occur to me. You mentioned in your blog that there are variations of Kubota engines that have been marinized by Beta and Universal.

Are any of the Beta or Universal versions based on your particular Kubota? Or a very similar Kubota tractor model?

If so, might it be that some of the Beta or Universal marinization parts could be incorporated into your installation? Which in turn might mean you maybe need to invent fewer solutions?

-Chris

Seems like there are a lot of true marine engine options out there. I'm baffled why you choose the route you did. And while I wish you good luck with it, I really suggest you rethink the water jacketed manifold thing. Even now.

Yanmar 3TNE 20 HP Complete Marine Diesel Engine Transmission | eBay

FF said:

What is the weight of this boat that will operate with a 18Hp peak engine rating?

Click to expand...

You're think'in 18hp is not enough I'm guessing.

Not even close to a FD hull so I'll bet It'll need about 8hp per ton and She can't be over 3 tons. So worst case scenario is that she's going to be a little underpowered but she probably dosn't run but 5 or 6 knots. Willy takes 18hp to make 6 knots and weighs 8 tons. Six times the weight (but FD) so maybe the Shucker will happily go 5.5 knots on about 10hp and close to 6 knots on 12 or 14. But the skipper may not be too happy w the little Kubota work'in fairly hard. That would probably work OK but a 27hp 3GM 3cyl would be a lot better bet. But those DI Yanmars are noisy though.

As Bill has shown there are plenty of these engines out there.

I asked her about the Kubota's exhaust manifold, got no response I and sure don't like the two stud exhaust mount. Fine for a tractor (maybe not even for that) but not w heavy exhaust pieces hung on.

I agree w others .. needs a WC exhaust.

Large marine engines from the industrial pile are usually worth overhauling.

Farm implement or light duty truck engines usually need to be removed to be rebuilt , but the many commercial rebuilders can keep the costs down.They will last as long as when new if done properly.

Longer if a good shop does a blueprint job.

To my mind a used lawnmower motor or small "marine diesel" rebuild is seldom worth the effort as so few have the expertise that the job is easily botched.

Esp if the boat yard "mechanic" not the brand dealer does the work.

********

3 HP per ton works for most cruising boats although the large relative house area in small boat makes them more breeze sensitive.

There are 3 Albin 25 in FL at a dock, most run happily at -1/2 gph ,,,7 or 8 HP .

However they do not have much superstructure, and are sleek like a sail boat.

With the low cost Euro, here is a direction for the very adventurous.

SCAM MARINE - Marine Engines, Gensets and Nautical Equipment - Ship Technology

I think this is what her hull looks like. Hp to tons of displacement?


EDIT: Shipping weight of this vessel was listed at 4,082 kg.

That looks like a hard chine semi displacement hull with a deep probably ballasted keel. Both design factors- SD and deep keel work against efficiency. My guess is about 5 hp per ton. So at about 4.5 US tons it will take 20-25 hp.

You can probably pull 12 hp continuously out of that Kubota with out too much noise or stress. That will probably get you to a S/L of 1.0.

David

An 18hp Kubota I think is a two cyl. Man those twos run rough as cobs. Three cyl much much smoother, hopefully it's a three.

Ski,
Are the twins w a 360 or 180 crank?
I remember the old British motorcycle twins... All had 360 cranks so the pistons rose and fell together. They had a large and heavy counterweight and were remarkably smooth at low speeds but the'do buzz your fingernails off at high Rs.

In came the Japanise twins .. all w 180 cranks. Relatively smooth at high revs but grab a handfull at the bottom end and you'd be sure you were riding a single. Their power pulses were like this .. .. .. .. where the 360 crank was . . . .

Three lungers weren't that smooth on motorcycles as there wasn't' much mass to bolt the engine to. But in boats the triples do very well I think.

Yup I'd be think'in that Shucker is not very efficient. I'd want 30hp. The Shucker would make an excellent subject for a hull extension .. at the stern and turned up like a FD hull. Turned up clear to the WL 15hp would be fine but 24hp and turned half way up may be better. Turned all the way up would be extremely speed limiting .. like a brick wall at 5.5 knots. But she'd be a better boat. Atkin designed a boat w a flat bottom very similar to the Shuck and spec'ed 9hp. She had a very easy rockered bottom though and the Shucker lacks that.

But if Janice can swing another engine w WC exhaust I'd be
cheer'in. If I were her I'd be look'in at Craig's List and e-bay while getting around a bit w an old OB on the swimstep or similar.

I think the Kubota twins are 180deg cranks, but not 100% on that. So pistons "sorta" cancel, but firing intervals are wildly off. Idling low they go: da da....da da... etc, hallmark of the 180 crank. Just like the bikes.

Only twins on the planet should be two strokes.....

manyboats said:

I asked her about the Kubota's exhaust manifold, got no response I and sure don't like the two stud exhaust mount. Fine for a tractor (maybe not even for that) but not w heavy exhaust pieces hung on.

Click to expand...

Looks like Janice responded in her blog to a couple of your comments... not sure which, or whether relevant to the mount...

-Chris

It is raining this morning so I had a few extra minutes to kill. I have been following this thread and decided to check the old "interweb" for more information about the Schucker Gulf Packet 23 and how they were powered.

First I ran across this in a listing:
"This vessel is a Schucker "Gulf Packet" built in Bradenton, Fl by a company better known for it's rugged 40' to 50' cruising motorsailers. In the early 80's James Schucker, the designer/builder, was faced with declining sales due to soft economy and high production costs of his large motorsailers and trawlers; faced with imminent closing of the facility and remaining stockpiles of raw materials and hardware, he designed the 23' Gulf Packet as a last try at a niche market. Six of these craft were built to the same high standards, and using the same hardware, as their larger sisters. Rugged, roomy, seaworthy and unique, four were gas-powered, and two had small diesels. But they were quite expensive for their length...and no further boats were built. The company closed it's doors."
"Engine Type: Single Inboard, Engine Make: Peugeot, Engine Model: Indenor"

Then, this from another listing:
"Schucker 24' Gulf Packet, 1983. S-Pisces Peugeot 4-60, 400hrs."

Finally, this from a current Schucker Gulf Packet 23 listing:
"Originally gas-powered, boat was apparently repowered in 1987 with a Pisces Indamar 4 cyl 62hp FWC diesel. Access through pilothouse deck hatches, and access hatch fwd. Engine uses glowplug preheating and starts instantly. It does not burn oil, nor has it ever overheated. 3000 hrs. Fuel consumption averages about 0.8 gal - hr @ hull speed, 6 kts. Max speed 7 kts. Fuel system consists of two wing tanks, P & S aft, about 40 gal each, supplying fuel via dedicated demand electric transfer pumps, through separate primary fuel filter - water separators, to a common 12 gal 'day tank'. The day tank feeds the engine through a Racor secondary filter and engine-mounted tertiary filter via electric lift pump; fuel return to day tank only. This system is what you would expect to find on large commercial vessels, and is extraordinary on a 23' trawler. All fuel passes through three independent filter systems! Total capacity of approximately 92 gal yields a cruising range of about 600 nm."

From this limited amount of information, I concluded that some were powered by 60-62hp Peugeot-based marine diesels. Assuming 18-20hp/gal/hr they likely produced 14.4-16hp to drive the boat at 'hull speed' which I assume is S/L 1.34. That would mean the LWL is around 20' which looks about right. At 6 kts, that Kubota would be working pretty hard when factoring in the transmission and bearing losses. Further, the prop would have to be pretty much optimal for the combo.

It looks like the designers felt the boat needed quite a bit more power, and Janice's website even refers to a GM V8 powerplant which at a minimum would have been 190hp or so. Even with diesel power, the numbers point to a SD hull with sufficient power to run considerably faster than S/L 1.34.

My take is that the Kubota 18hp diesel is going to be on the small side, possibly even too small, but should work if the cruising speed is kept below 6 kts. Conditions like head seas, wind and current, even a dirty prop or bottom, could easily drive the power requirement beyond 18hp though.

Just $0.02 worth of food for thought.

Best of luck Janice!

Capt.Bill11 said:

Seems like there are a lot of true marine engine options out there. I'm baffled why you choose the route you did. And while I wish you good luck with it, I really suggest you rethink the water jacketed manifold thing. Even now.

Yanmar 3TNE 20 HP Complete Marine Diesel Engine Transmission | eBay

Click to expand...

FWIW, for Janice's benefit, if useful...

There are at least 7 different Yanmar 3TNE engines. Looks like this is the smallest, the 3TNE68. Our genset engine is the next size up, a 3TNE74, but the fact it's in a generator means it's not immediately geared (heh... get it? ) for propulsion.

There are also at least three 4TNEs.

-Chris