Supreme Wack Job

manyboats said:

Not smart enough to buy a Rocna?

My oh my!

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Or a Sarca I said. I'm happy to admit there is more than just one ideal anchor out there.

Greetings,
Wait, what? "...ideal anchor...". I thought Ideal was a windlass.....

Yes RT that is my response to Marin's comment about my intelligence. I suppose even his dog would be smart enough to choose a Rocna. Well I won't be reading any more of his supercharged opinions. He's gone to the ignore list. Sparing w Marin has been fun for years but the fun seems to be gone.

Greetings,
So, so....THIS anchor thread is over then?

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Wait, what? "...ideal anchor...". I thought Ideal was a windlass.....

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RTF--- Here is a shot of an ideal anchor. Just thing for the typical recreational cruiser. This is what our dog tried to get us to buy after our Bruce dragged once too many times but we over-ruled him.

Marin said:

Of course one has no choice with a Sarca but it's easy enough to torque a nut, bolt, and lock washers down in the slot to ensure that the shackle can't slide. If we lost our first-generation Rocna for some reason we'd be inclined to order a Sarca. But we would either ask the manufacturer, or have it done here, to weld the slot closed at the attach end so we had just a hole to attach the rode to. We believe in reducing the risk of anchoring problems to the absolute minimum, and the slot is an unnecessary risk in our view.

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You do have a choice. SARCA supplied a slot bolt with my SS. Unbelievers can eliminate shackle travel in the slot. I removed it, no premature pull out, so far.

BruceK said:

You do have a choice. SARCA supplied a slot bolt with my SS. Unbelievers can eliminate shackle travel in the slot. I removed it, no premature pull out, so far.

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That's what I said. You have no choice but to have a slot with a Sarca, but at least you can block the slot.

The other thing I don't like about slotted shanks is that by necessity they are wider vertically (taller?) than un-slotted shanks given the same anchor weight/size. This can render the Sarca unable to fit under the anchor bail or keeper at the front of the pulpit. This will vary from boat to boat, but it would have in the case of our boat.

BruceK said:

You do have a choice. SARCA supplied a slot bolt with my SS. Unbelievers can eliminate shackle travel in the slot. I removed it, no premature pull out, so far.

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And I've been using mine in the wicked, naughty, untrustworthy slot, for 11 years, and in places where there is always alternating currents twice a night at least, and it has never happened with us either. So, as you would say Marin...go figure...

Greetings,
Ahhhh, so post #64 is redundant then?

....Manson did a smart thing by putting a shacke hole in their anchor shank along with the slot. Every Manson Supreme I've seen-- which has only been a few; they are apparently not very popular in this area-- has been shacked to the hole, not the slot...

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We pulled into Great Habour Cay to wait out some weather. There are 17 boats here which include couple of dock condos and a 130' yacht. I walked the docks to look at anchors. Excluding the 130' yacht and tenders but including the sport fishing boats and condos, I counted 11 roll bar/type anchors of which there were 6 Rocnas, 4 Manson Supremes and a European roll bar type I am not familiar with plus one of the new roll bar less high tech SS anchors.

Of the Mason Supremes, only 1 of the 4 used the slot.

Of the remaining anchors there was a mix of claws, deltas an CQR. These anchors were either on the condos or sport fishing boats. Scientific study no, but it seems to be fairly representative of the boats that we see out cruising on a regular basis.

Larry M said:

We pulled into Great Habour Cay to wait out some weather. …. I counted 11 roll bar/type anchors of which there were 6 Rocnas, 4 Manson Supremes and a European roll bar type I am not familiar with plus one of the new roll bar less high tech SS anchors.

Of the Mason Supremes, only 1 of the 4 used the slot.

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Well, no wonder, they've been listening to Marin…

Actually listening to Marin isn't necessary.
If you've just anchored and set your anchor what are the chances of the anchor not setting if it was pulled out backwards from a reversal of wind or/and current? They say the best way to set an anchor is to do it slowly. Some refer to a practice of "letting the anchor soak". That would be very similar to the resetting that would take place if the shackle ran down the slot and pulled the anchor out backwards.

So the chances of one knowing if one's shackle was staying at the head end of the shank would probably be zero. Possibly in all your 11 years of anchoring Peter the anchor just re-set.

Larry thanks for the pics and report. The 6-4 ratio sounds about right but around here there are fewer Supreme's. Perhaps it's the aggressive marketing of Rocna's by Fisheries Supply? But I suspect the slot has a lot to do w it. In this country it's probably viewed as a gimmick. Marin's an odd duck but not so strange that we can completely discount what he says. Lots of other people have similar thoughts I'm sure and since the Rocna's are there as an option most will prolly opt for the Rocna. I wish Manson had a slotless North American shank for the Supreme.

So Marin's notions shouldn't be completely discounted nor should the fact that two very knowledgeable and experienced anchor manufacturers supply anchors with the slot.

manyboats said:

.....he fact that two very knowledgeable and experienced anchor manufacturers supply anchors with the slot.

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For years American car manufactures put fins on the back ends of their cars. They were marketing gimmicks which, through the personal competition between two friends who worked at two different car companies, gradually grew in scope until it culminated with the gigantic fins that were applied to Cadillacs. The fins had no practical purpose but for a time they were viewed as essential design elements to include in a design.

I view slotted shanks in somewhat the same way. Clever idea, good marketing ploy, but in reality really aren't needed. The difference between slotted shanks and Cadillac fins is that the fins didn't have the potential to cause a problem.

While I have not seen any testimonials to this effect on this forum, on the T&T forum years ago there were several very credible entries that described incidents of shackles sliding down the shanks of Mansons and backing the anchor out. Very, very rare occurrence but it's happened.

I have only one critical requirement for an anchor design, and that is that once it's set it stays set. I'm much more interested in holding power than I am in ease of setting. This is my primary complaint about the Bruce. Easy to get an initial set but doesn't hold very well under pressure and surging loads.

There is already the risk of an anchor-- any anchor-- coming out under a strong load in a different direction because of a wind or current change. Ideally the design will promote a fast and solid reset. But to do anything to an anchor design that increases the risk of an anchor being pulled out, no matter how tiny or non-existent the designer claims that risk to be, it's a bad design in my book.

The very fact that Sarca supplies a bolt to prevent the shackle from sliding down the slot is very, very telling to me. It means that no matter what the hype, they know this is a possibility so they are covering their butt by giving the buyer the bolt. Should an owner experience having their anchor pulled out backwards because of the slot and experience a bad or dangerous situation as a result all the manufacturer has to say is. "Why didn't you use the bolt we supplied you with? Then this wouldn't have happened."

Since there is a totally no-risk means of backing a fouled anchor out-- a trip line-- to include a feature that poses even the tiniest risk of unsettling the anchor when you don't want it to be unset is putting marketing over good design in my opinion. Like the fins on the old cars, it's a gimmick. Unlike the fins on the old cars, it's a gimmick with a downside.

Except, as I mentioned before, in the case of a fisherman who deliberately anchors temporarily over foul ground and needs an easy means of freeing his anchor when he's ready to move to a new spot. Then, and only then, does the slotted shank have true value.

PS- The folks who shackle their rodes to the hole in a Manson shank certainly don't do this because they read something I wrote. In the overall scheme of things only a very tiny fraction of boaters even know this forum exists. Some of the few Mansons I've seen were on commercial fishing boats in BC and I doubt that recreational boating forums are part of their repertoire. I can only assume the boaters who shackle to the hole in a Manson or use the bolt on a Sarca do so either because they recognized the slot risk on their own or, like me, they've read or heard about instances of shackles sliding down the slot at the wrong time.

Marin wrote;
"The very fact that Sarca supplies a bolt to prevent the shackle from sliding down the slot is very, very telling to me. It means that no matter what the hype, they know this is a possibility so they are covering their butt by giving the buyer the bolt"

Absolute bull roar Marin. They obviously know there's unbelivers like yourself and giving them the option of blocking the slot so they'll buy the anchor speaks to the bottom line. You actually think they don't have faith in their own product! And I think there's probably more grief associated w the trip line than the slot. I haven't used the slot yet. I've blocked it w a bolt. But I've come to think ...
A. The shackle won't ride the slot fwd and pull out the anchor.
B. If it does pull out the anchor the odds of it not setting in/on a bottom that it had
just set on and has never failed to set on any bottom is so small it's ridiculous.

From now on I'm going to use the slot the way it was intended. Gonna have a little coming out party. I'm using a shackle that can't slide under the shank too.

Using the slot or the hole changes more than the obvious. Since I think short scope performance is important I have always used the slot w the blocking bolt before. The slot attach point is a bit higher giving the anchor a bit more throat angle that I think will allow the anchor to hold better at short scope. In a small way it does the same thing as adjusting the Fortress anchor for a 45 degree throat opening. I'm theorizing that if the hole is used maybe better long scope performance will result. More likely though I think it may increase setting ability. However if the anchor readily sets hooked to the slot ... one should be (as they say) good to go.

Good for you Eric! Let us know how it goes. I hope the fish like the look of the shackle in the slot more than Cadillac fins.

I'm done for now w my decapitated Manson Supreme. I've filled in holes and depressions to keep mud from coming up w the anchor but mostly to reduce penetrating friction kinda like cleaning up an aircraft aerodynamically for more speed or reduced fuel consumption. The idea is to reduce friction so the anchor will penetrate deeper and I intend to not only regain some holding power lost by the removal of the roll bar but to exceed that as well. The roll bar causes some resistance that may add to holding power but it's my theory that the drag being high on the anchor will pitch the anchor up some and that of course will reduce penetration and significantly .. holding power.

Pic #1
Shows how I have reduced the width of the heart shaped tip (or toe as Rex would say) to help the tip poke it's way into the sea floor.
Pic #2
With my grinder and some JB Weld (epoxy and microballons) I filled the holes where the roll bar attached to the anchor. The anchor looks more like a sailplane than the biplane it resembled before.
Pic #3
This shows how sharp the tip is now. Hope it dosn't bend easily. I think Manson used good steel here.
Pic #4
This shows the bottom. Ahead of where the roll bars were there was a hole or "V" shaped depression that probably picked up bottom material and caused some additional resistance to penetrating. Should slide along nicely now.

manyboats said:

Marin wrote;
"The very fact that Sarca supplies a bolt to prevent the shackle from sliding down the slot is very, very telling to me. It means that no matter what the hype, they know this is a possibility so they are covering their butt by giving the buyer the bolt"

Absolute bull roar Marin. They obviously know there's unbelivers like yourself and giving them the option of blocking the slot so they'll buy the anchor speaks to the bottom

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Nope, that bolt that comes with the Sarca has lawyer written all over it. If I want a Sarca but decide I want to block the slot I can go buy a bolt for five bucks at Fisheries Supply.

That bolt is supplied with the anchor because IF a boater uses the slot and IF the shackle slides down the slot and IF the anchor pulls out and IF the boat ends up on the rocks and, in the worst case scenario which is how lawyers think-- don't forget I work for a company that has a boxcar load of liability lawyers who get paid more money than God to think up scenarios like this and make sure the company can't be held liable if they happen-- maybe somebody gets hurt or killed, the anchor company can say, hey, we're not responsible. We supplied a bolt to block the slot. The fact the boater elected not to use it is the boater's fault, not ours.

You might think this is silly, but trust me, no company making a product that has the slightest chance of causing property or personal damage is going to let itself be exposed like that. They will have a cover-their-ass solution for every problem that could conceivably arise. That little bolt that comes with the anchor is Holdfast's get-out-of-jail-free card if or when somebody's anchor gets backed out by the shackle sliding down that slot and the result is personal or property damage.

The fact they supply it means they must feel it's possible. It's got nothing to do with them trying to get unbelievers to buy their anchor. If the Rocna wasn't available I'd buy a Sarca, no question, and the first thing I'd do is stop at Fisheries and buy a bolt for the slot or weld the stupid thing closed when I got it home. I don't need Holdfast to supply me with a bolt if I decide I want their anchor. I'd bet money that they supply that bolt because they're legally covering their butt. Not that they'd ever admit it publicly.

Even I realize that use of the slot is only good for a temporary anchoring, especially if there is the possibility of fouling. It's obvious any significant change of wind or current direction can result in anchor failing to hold the boat.

Amazes me how many experts we have on here who have absolutely zero experience with a slotted anchor, yet are convinced they are dangerous and will unset the anchor. Yet although they give lip service to respecting first hand experience from other posters on any other subject, on this subject, obstinately refuse to accept the evidence from those who do have such an anchor - and have never - I repeat never - had their anchor unset in such a manner, and still cannot accept this first hand experience as valid. What gives here gentlemen..? No, maybe don't answer that, because I suspect it will just be another spiel of uncorroborated conjecture and maybe a second or third hand tale from someone, who knew someone, who heard someone…you know how it goes…

Sorry, feeling a bit grumpy tonight…have to sell the boat, or not see my grandchildren much at all. (They are the other side of the world) However, at least I got the wind genny and the electric loo both going again. But actually Eric hit the nail on the head, as to why there is now a bolt suppled with the slot on new anchors - there wasn't with mine, when he said…

They obviously know there's unbelievers...and giving them the option of blocking the slot so they'll buy the anchor speaks to the bottom line. You actually think they don't have faith in their own product! And I think there's probably more grief associated with the trip line than the slot. I haven't used the slot yet. I've blocked it with a bolt. But I've come to think …

A. The shackle won't ride the slot fwd and pull out the anchor.

B. If it does pull out the anchor the odds of it not setting in/on a bottom that it had just set on and has never failed to set on any bottom is so small it's ridiculous.

From now on I'm going to use the slot the way it was intended..


Thanks Eric, like he said…so many people just can't believe it works how it is supposed to work, they gave up trying to explain it I suspect. Just saying'...

Be careful, truthfullness can be a dangerous thing here....

Well Peter you've got to admit people will look at that slot and see that it's obvious that the shackle will run down the slot and trip the anchor. Anybody w an ounce of sense can see that. Even people like Mark and Marin. And they have several ounces of sense.

Mark how many times has your Claw not set in an anchorage that it's set in before? Probably never. There's no reason to belive there's more than the slightest possibility of your anchor not re-setting. And there's already slight posibilities that your anchor won't hold your boat. The results of anchoring are not absolute like Marin wishes them to be. There is a chance you won't remain vertical today in the shower yet you will shower. There's a chance some igit will run a red light while you are going through that intersection and there's a chance the train warnings won't work as you go merrily along at speed over the tracks. There's probably a greater chance of the above going wrong than your anchor not setting or re-setting.

Personally I think the shackle will not pass UNDER the shank while the rode is horizontal on the sea floor. And right at the shank even w my short scope ways the chain right in front of the shank will (I believe) be on the bottom. And when the rode pulls backwards the attach point and the shackle will remain where it should be and pull the anchor shank around to it's new "heading".

Don't you trust your friend w your life? Peter has been doing this for 11 years and I assume he's anchored more than three times. I'm not 100% sure about this myself but I'm 999% sure. I admit it looks like bad things will happen but I have faith in my friends. I use the anchor alarm anchoring even without using a slotted anchor so my faith in anchoring is clearly not 100% or absolute even though I've never dragged .. to my knowledge. Besides I'm getting tired of that trip line. Also it's too bad there wasn't slotted anchors in the veering anchor test.

Marin it's probably a matter of both vulnerability to being sued and motivation to sell to skeptics like yourself .. and for myself re the past. Absolutes are nice but are not a part of the real world. The real world is reducing the odds of bad things happening to a minimum and/or an acceptable level. I can see where you think the slot increases the odds of bad things happening but I'm going to use the slot. If I don't report back ................

Coupla final points here. Having to set a trip line...compared to not having to...is a a PITA, as it turns a simple operation into a more complicated one, both in the going down, and the coming up. And that's aside from the added risks of the trip line fouling a prop...your or someone else's.

Same deal with a bolt in the slot. While normally no problem, because the anchor does not foul - usually - as we all know, Murphy's law works overtime when boating, so you can put your money on it, the one time you really need that tripping slot to work, you will have it bolted out. Trying to pick the right time to use a tripping line and float...or not... faces the same issue. Murphy's law will dictate when that occurs...not you...so your only recourse is to either use the tripline every time...or never...and take your chances on losing the anchor. Versus...in the case in question, leaving the bolt out of the slot...and taking the chance the anchor might be freakishly tripped by it...and then not reset virtually immediately...something which has not happened to me anyway, in about 600 anchorings, and in waters where the tidal flow reverses twice a night, (as Eric also pointed out), and being able to retrieve said fouled anchor, when and if that occurs, with little more sweat than a routine retrieval.

I ask you, which you pick...Pat or Mick..?

PS. I do however have to admit, the slot in the Manson version does 'look' more like the shackle might travel more easily back up the slot, and it does strike me that the claimed episodes of this happening reported by Marin have all been with Mansons, so I await Eric's experience with real interest.

Peter--- There are more ways to back out a fouled anchor than a trip line or a slot. We carry a couple of them on our boat in addition to the trip line, which in our experience anyway, is a snap to deploy and retrieve.

Marin said:

Peter--- There are more ways to back out a fouled anchor than a trip line or a slot. We carry a couple of them on our boat in addition to the trip line, which in our experience anyway, is a snap to deploy and retrieve.

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Absolutely, I know there are, but they are a bit of a fiddle, requiring specially prepared 'devices', (have you tried them, and did they work easily on a dark & windy wet night), and often several 'tries', and if the weather is turning nasty, and you want out of there asap…that is not the time to have to do that. Trouble is Murphy's law doesn't care about that...'s'all I'm sayin'...

Never had to try them. Our trip line works a treat.

Eric--- I don't disagree with your statements. But perhaps it's from flying or working where I work for the last bunch of years or it's from my pessimistic French father and Depression-era mother, but I'm a huge believer in doing everything possible to reduce the chances of something going wrong to as near zero as I can get them. Which means I spend a fair amount of time-- perhaps too much time--- trying to anticipate everything that could go wrong and then figuring out a way to keep it from going wrong. It's a handy trait to have in the profession I'm in, too, so it's been a beneficial attitude for my entire working life so far.

So when I first saw a slotted shank anchor, which would have been a Manson Supreme, my immediate thought was, "That's one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. It's just asking for trouble to do that."

And sure enough, I started seeing a few posts on the T&T list about Mansons being backed out by the shackle sliding down the slot. "Smart, they included a hole," I thought, and as I've stated, the Mansons I've seen around here and in BC have been shackled to the hole.

Then came Sarca with it's slot-only shank. Sure, you can jam a bolt in the slot and prevent the shackle slide problem, but if you're going to do that then why have a slot in the first place? As Peter says, there is no way to anticipate when you might want to use the slot for its intended purpose, so how do you know that the night you put the bolt in the slot won't be the night you need the slot?

So you can use the slot all the time as Peter does, and have no problems. Until you do. That fact that you CAN takes it out of my comfort zone of reducing risk to as near zero as I can get.

Now if the Sarca was the only anchor of this type on the market, well, I'd buy it and put the bolt in the slot or weld it closed and be happy as a clam. But since there are two good alternatives, one of which I feel is a superior anchor design anyway, I can cross one more risk off my list.

That's how I feel about it, anyways. Others can make their own decisions regarding slotted shanks and how to best use them.

My thoughts. The Manson Supreme has a rock slot, for use in areas with a higher probability of getting stuck. Normal setting is through using the provided hole. I use only the hole but do use a rather stout trip line and shackle through the slot for use in areas such as rivers that are known for stumps or other snags. Does it work?....no idea as thankfully have never snagged it.....yet.


From the Manson site:
Is the sliding slot a guarantee for retrieving my anchor every time from rocky or coral seabeds?
No, the sliding slot is not a guarantee but it does increase dramatically the probabilities of getting your anchor back when fouled. Occasionally the chain gets wrapped around the coral or rock, hence why you can't retrieve your anchor. If the seabed is extremely rocky we recommend a grapnel or reef anchor instead.

Just an update,

Finally tried the Supreme w/o the roll bar. Didn't work. Got a little resistance at first but it must have turned upside down. Dragged it 75' or so ... the rode acted like the anchor was kinda bouncing along.
Only time I've tried it and it won't be the last. It was blow'in 25 and not warm so I threw out the old Danforth.
I intend to try it more the way it is but I have a mod planned that may work as well or better than the roll bar .. I think.

For the first time ever my modified XYZ would'nt hook up either. Tried another mod that was evidently a mistake.

Think I'll try my 33lb Claw. Should hold my little boat easily.

So .... the anchor mod business has been poor.

hmason said:

Did you hear the one about the 3 anchors that walked into a bar.....

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Al said:

I'd bet their names were "Hook","Line",and Sinker"

Al

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ROFL!

Before reading all the anchor threads here and on the other forum, I had thought that there were Danforths and plows. Almost "Period."


A few other oddballs (Bruce, Claw) and leftovers (fishermen's, etc.)... but hardly ever saw any of the former, and only some of the local watermen seem to have the Fishermans mounted...

Oh, well, plus the Fortress, a put-together/take-apart adjustable -- and much easier to lift -- version of the Danforth.

I hadn't really paid much attention to the differences between a plow (convex fluke) and a scoop (concave fluke). I thought a Delta and a CQR were only different from each other in the number of moving parts, and that a Spade and an Ultra and whatever Mantus or Manson or whatever equivalents were all pretty much the same.

And some of those are kinda nifty with that whole take-apart/put-together thing (Spade)...

But then Rex went off about how the Excel isn't a plow -- even if it does have a convex fluke -- because it buries rather than digs constant-depth furrows (like a farm implement)... so it seemed there's more to it than just the vex/cave thing.

And then the rollbar, a righting tool, perhaps without much further impact on how (if) the fluke works. Unless it inhibits further burying, as some have said somewhere or other... (I'm so confused.)

Well, not confused, really. As I walk the docks here -- admittedly a small sample -- I see Deltas and Danforths on powerboats, and CQRs, the occasional Bruce or Claw, and Danforths on sailboats. Sometimes the "Danforth" is really a Fortress, but not so often. Don't think I've seen more than about 2 Rocnas mounted, over the last several years. (About as common as a SuperMax -- us and one other I saw this year.) I've seen no other brand of rollbar anchor mounted.

Sometime earlier this year, I surveyed the local Fleming fleet; can't remember details perfectly, lots of bling, but I don't remember much other than some Ultras (I didn't know what they were, at the time) and several Fortress models.

Seems like folks here pay lots of attention to new anchors... and folks on the docks... don't.

-Chris

I see Mason Supremes and Rocnas very frequently.

Howard