Are Nordic Tugs worth the money?
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The conversation in this thread has been about raised side decks - with valuable storage below - compared to wider accommodations above waist height (and a corresponding loss of storage). But that's leaving out what might be the most attractive configuration - the substantially increased value of the side deck when it's covered.
Most of my boating has been in the PNW where rain is an issue more than tropical sun, but the same principle applies - keeping the elements off of the deck and accommodations.
If you are working the side deck - going through the locks, hand-lining a small boat, helping someone raft up, docking in an unfamiliar slip / fuel dock / whatever - and it's raining (or worse, snowing!) then there is truly no substitute to being able to stand under cover. And to having your side entrances under cover.
And even in the relatively mild summers in the PNW I have seen the advantage of keeping direct sun off of the cabin sides (particularly the glass areas).
IMHO once your vessel reaches a certain size (40' LOA?) then the value of increased width in the saloon starts to diminish - unless you typically carry so many guests that they (or you) feel crowded.
Most of my boating has been in the PNW where rain is an issue more than tropical sun, but the same principle applies - keeping the elements off of the deck and accommodations.
If you are working the side deck - going through the locks, hand-lining a small boat, helping someone raft up, docking in an unfamiliar slip / fuel dock / whatever - and it's raining (or worse, snowing!) then there is truly no substitute to being able to stand under cover. And to having your side entrances under cover.
And even in the relatively mild summers in the PNW I have seen the advantage of keeping direct sun off of the cabin sides (particularly the glass areas).
IMHO once your vessel reaches a certain size (40' LOA?) then the value of increased width in the saloon starts to diminish - unless you typically carry so many guests that they (or you) feel crowded.
Nomad Willy
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refugio,
We lived in SE Alaska for 8 years, didn't have covered side decks and didn't even have a covered after deck. When we went north it was high on the to-do list but just never seemed important enough to move on the issue. And of course there were downsides to the addition of such covers. Just because something looks like it may be a good thing dosn't mean one should jump up and employ it. I've seen pics of the Mainship in question (I'm quite sure) and consider it top heavy. My opinion dosn't make it so .. but just say'in.
caltexflanc,
Re your post 55 I am trying to compare an average run of the mill boat acceptable to most to a standout extraordinary product that well known for it's fine construction and excellent design. They are not in the same class to compare. But the Mainship may indeed be a good average boat. And a good average boat gives good average service for many years.
I think I saw a Mainship 34 yesterday. It was definitely wide and had an oddly designed fore cabin and upper bow. Kinda looked a little houseboat like to me.
As to my top heavy coment earlier the top hamper may be justified as the beam may support it.
If so then another performance factor enters the picture and that is a possible high level of drag in the hump speed range. Wide boats tend to run at high angles of attack at speeds just above the mathematical hull speed and below planing speed.
The NT on the other hand is narrower than most boats and therefore runs more efficient than most at the above mentioned speeds.
Looking to possibly purchase one of these two boats dosn't make much sense. It would be a bit like comparing an SUV to a sedan. If one was suitable to for the buyer the other would be very unlikely to be.
We lived in SE Alaska for 8 years, didn't have covered side decks and didn't even have a covered after deck. When we went north it was high on the to-do list but just never seemed important enough to move on the issue. And of course there were downsides to the addition of such covers. Just because something looks like it may be a good thing dosn't mean one should jump up and employ it. I've seen pics of the Mainship in question (I'm quite sure) and consider it top heavy. My opinion dosn't make it so .. but just say'in.
caltexflanc,
Re your post 55 I am trying to compare an average run of the mill boat acceptable to most to a standout extraordinary product that well known for it's fine construction and excellent design. They are not in the same class to compare. But the Mainship may indeed be a good average boat. And a good average boat gives good average service for many years.
I think I saw a Mainship 34 yesterday. It was definitely wide and had an oddly designed fore cabin and upper bow. Kinda looked a little houseboat like to me.
As to my top heavy coment earlier the top hamper may be justified as the beam may support it.
If so then another performance factor enters the picture and that is a possible high level of drag in the hump speed range. Wide boats tend to run at high angles of attack at speeds just above the mathematical hull speed and below planing speed.
The NT on the other hand is narrower than most boats and therefore runs more efficient than most at the above mentioned speeds.
Looking to possibly purchase one of these two boats dosn't make much sense. It would be a bit like comparing an SUV to a sedan. If one was suitable to for the buyer the other would be very unlikely to be.
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I lived aboard in Juneau 30 years ago - can't imagine not having my covered aft deck to take wet gear off to keep it out of the boat.
I give up - what could be a negative aspect to having covered side decks? You keep the boat cleaner, keep the precipitation away from windows, decks, and the troublesome joint between them, have more boat deck space, have a handy overhead for fishing poles, hooks and gaffs, and lighting. And you protect your crew. Where's the downside?
sunchaser
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Eric -Thanks for a bit of honesty. Keep it up. Oh by the way, my covered side decks are a good working platform from which to clean the fly bridge windows. 
Scary and Kevin, you are right - an NT 32 is not as big as a Bayliner 4788 or Hatteras LRC.
And for those fine vessel owners who see the sun rising and falling over their KK logos, other brands do indeed have asymmetrical side deck designs.
Scary and Kevin, you are right - an NT 32 is not as big as a Bayliner 4788 or Hatteras LRC.
And for those fine vessel owners who see the sun rising and falling over their KK logos, other brands do indeed have asymmetrical side deck designs.
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ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
I would love side decks. Nothing negative about them at all!
I would not trade them for the extra feet of salon width though, and thats the real issue. Boats are choices, this for that.
Scary and Kevin, you are right - an NT 32 is not as big as a Bayliner 4788 or Hatteras LRC.
Of course not, but we are not comparing a 32' boat with a 47' boat. At this point we are considering whether the space lost in the salon to side decks something we prefer.
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We're use to side decks. Could we function without them however? Of course. In fact we do. Our sport boat technically has what it calls decks but we never try to actually get on them and stand on them.
We actually use our side decks more than most as we go to the bow a lot. It's an area used greatly on our boat. But if we didn't have them then walking through wouldn't be the end of the world. In docking and tying, we use the engines and thrusters and do very little manually until we're perfectly in place. However, with two people or more it's easy to have one fore and one aft. And with one person, I don't really think they should be running from the helm down the side to the stern. They need to remain close to the side door from the helm. We prefer side decks but that's just personal preference. No strong argument I'd make one way or the other.
And, yes, our side deck is covered. I hadn't really thought about it and had assumed all were. Now I have to look more at others. It just seems logical it would be so you could use the side in rain and also as protection for the boat.
We actually use our side decks more than most as we go to the bow a lot. It's an area used greatly on our boat. But if we didn't have them then walking through wouldn't be the end of the world. In docking and tying, we use the engines and thrusters and do very little manually until we're perfectly in place. However, with two people or more it's easy to have one fore and one aft. And with one person, I don't really think they should be running from the helm down the side to the stern. They need to remain close to the side door from the helm. We prefer side decks but that's just personal preference. No strong argument I'd make one way or the other.
And, yes, our side deck is covered. I hadn't really thought about it and had assumed all were. Now I have to look more at others. It just seems logical it would be so you could use the side in rain and also as protection for the boat.
Nomad Willy
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refugio wrote;
"I give up - what could be a negative aspect to having covered side decks?"
Just the expense, windage, weight and invitation to put even more weight up high on the boat. Mostly weight and that's a problem w most things one adds to a boat. But for a livaboard it dosn't make much difference. You talk a strong case for then but I don't see them on your boat. That boat of yours would have fit in nicely at the Willard gathering last weekend. And re your "case" there are definite advantages .. several that you point out. Everything on a boat has it's advantages and disadvantages.
We live in a culture of mass mass produced products and lawyers to keep things in check so we're very used to thinking of weight as a bad thing. Like everything else weight has got to pay for itself on the benefits/liability scale and not cause safety issues that aren't acceptable and strike a good balance. And if your'e living aboard in Juneau covered side decks would be a plus BUT in that case the wide body boat would be FAR more desirable than covered area that could have been "house". I do relate to Juneau as I was born there and lived there numerous times.
Speaking of side deck covers Peter B has very lightweight cleverly designed side deck covers as I recall.
Kevin,
Humor and extremes often part of making a point.
"I give up - what could be a negative aspect to having covered side decks?"
Just the expense, windage, weight and invitation to put even more weight up high on the boat. Mostly weight and that's a problem w most things one adds to a boat. But for a livaboard it dosn't make much difference. You talk a strong case for then but I don't see them on your boat. That boat of yours would have fit in nicely at the Willard gathering last weekend. And re your "case" there are definite advantages .. several that you point out. Everything on a boat has it's advantages and disadvantages.
We live in a culture of mass mass produced products and lawyers to keep things in check so we're very used to thinking of weight as a bad thing. Like everything else weight has got to pay for itself on the benefits/liability scale and not cause safety issues that aren't acceptable and strike a good balance. And if your'e living aboard in Juneau covered side decks would be a plus BUT in that case the wide body boat would be FAR more desirable than covered area that could have been "house". I do relate to Juneau as I was born there and lived there numerous times.
Speaking of side deck covers Peter B has very lightweight cleverly designed side deck covers as I recall.
Kevin,
Humor and extremes often part of making a point.
Britannia
Wannabe
Me too - my KK54 has a single covered side deck on the starboard side. So far I have found it to be a fine compromise. I've already had boats raft to me and it made line handling a breeze. If I ever had to dock on the port side only I guess I'd miss having one on that side. The saloon is plenty wide with this arrangement
Richard
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Me too - my KK54 has a single covered side deck on the starboard side. So far I have found it to be a fine compromise. I've already had boats raft to me and it made line handling a breeze. If I ever had to dock on the port side only I guess I'd miss having one on that side. The saloon is plenty wide with this arrangement
Richard
Actually you guys with one side deck might have the best of booth worlds!
Well, the expense is a trade-off - longer-lived decks (particularly if they're teak), less maintenance on the house, etc - but the added windage is negligible. OK, a bit of weight up high and outside might affect rolling a bit.
Indeed I do not have covered side decks. In fact, in my avatar photo I didn't even have rails (added them a couple of years ago). I would LOVE to cover them as well, but my side decks are raised so the cover would be about 18" above the saloon cabin top. I have thought about adding canvas awnings over the side decks from the mid-point on the boat deck railing (also added a couple of years ago), but that would be a pretty mediocre solution. Attached is a more recent picture. BTW, I moor in freshwater under cover so the year-around protection is somewhat less important (to me).
A permanent structure covering the side decks also enables a more substantial rail / bullwark that can be vertically tied into the overhead. I understand Kevin's desire to have a wide saloon, but (for me) there is nothing more luxurious than protected side decks (from a Fleming 65):
Well, go back to your invitation" to use this extra space - that would be particularly useful if you lived aboard!
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Nomad Willy
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refugio,
I like your side decks. And the boat!
"Well, go back to your invitation" to use this extra space - that would be particularly useful if you lived aboard!"
Certainly don't live aboard .. this may have been from someone else.
Glad to see your pics.
I like your side decks. And the boat!
"Well, go back to your invitation" to use this extra space - that would be particularly useful if you lived aboard!"
Certainly don't live aboard .. this may have been from someone else.
Glad to see your pics.
Most boats will be adequate for ICW and some coastal cruising. The condition of the boat is more important than the brand. If you have to have a NT then so be it but if you just want to go cruising and enjoy it make a list of the features you must have then look at all boats that have those features. The results may surprise you.
Interior space and aft cabin( to avoid noisy forward berth) became very important to us as we looked and came up with our list.
Advertising words like tug, trawler, passagmaker etc are a big money attractor but don't add to boatability. I look at the GB and NTs and wonder about the lack of bow flare. I also don't like trunk cabins but that's just my opinion.
Look at 50 boats before you buy. Your objective should be to never get on a similar sized boat and say you wish that you had seen it before you bought your boat.
Interior space and aft cabin( to avoid noisy forward berth) became very important to us as we looked and came up with our list.
Advertising words like tug, trawler, passagmaker etc are a big money attractor but don't add to boatability. I look at the GB and NTs and wonder about the lack of bow flare. I also don't like trunk cabins but that's just my opinion.
Look at 50 boats before you buy. Your objective should be to never get on a similar sized boat and say you wish that you had seen it before you bought your boat.
A great objective. We did a very thorough evaluation before buying. We looked, we analyzed and compared, and we chartered. I'd never thought of that objective, but we did accomplish it. Someone may bring something new to the market that makes us wish, but we covered the existing market thoroughly.
Carolena
Guru
Regarding NT and side decks, here is my observation. First, I'd love a boat with side decks like the Flemming picture above. However, that is not currently in our budget. As for our NT, we do not have side decks, but we do have the interior space as a tradeoff. We do have a narrow area of nonskid along the side decks that works fine for us when rafting up, but I wouldn't walk out there in bad weather. What we do have is great pilothouse doors on either side that allow me to pull up to a dock, and step right out with line in hand. I can even reach in to bump the boat into or out of gear or hit the thruster from the dock as I'm tying lines. It works for us, but I'm not saying it is the best or only way to go. Just our experience.
One other person commented previously that the NT 32/34 is too small for a retirement boat. While our plan is to eventually move up to a NT 37/39 someday, we actually comment all the time that our NT is the perfect size for us - a couple that spends days to a couple weeks on the boat at a time, and only ocassionaly has friends on board for more than a day cruise. In sum, for us, we could easily spend weeks or months on this boat. Now that may not work for others and, yes, we would like to move up one day, but we could also be perfectly happy with this boat for the long term. One thing I always tell my wife is when I say I want to get a bigger boat, make me go to the marina and wash ours first, then see if I still feel the same.
Lastly, for the same money we could have gone larger with another brand, but for us the NT had everything we wanted, including the pilot house, upper deck for entertaining (we have a bimini and full rails), quality of construction, single Cummins, full keel, and good resale to name a few. Everyone will have a different list, but if I had to do it again I would buy the same boat, for us.
One other person commented previously that the NT 32/34 is too small for a retirement boat. While our plan is to eventually move up to a NT 37/39 someday, we actually comment all the time that our NT is the perfect size for us - a couple that spends days to a couple weeks on the boat at a time, and only ocassionaly has friends on board for more than a day cruise. In sum, for us, we could easily spend weeks or months on this boat. Now that may not work for others and, yes, we would like to move up one day, but we could also be perfectly happy with this boat for the long term. One thing I always tell my wife is when I say I want to get a bigger boat, make me go to the marina and wash ours first, then see if I still feel the same.
Lastly, for the same money we could have gone larger with another brand, but for us the NT had everything we wanted, including the pilot house, upper deck for entertaining (we have a bimini and full rails), quality of construction, single Cummins, full keel, and good resale to name a few. Everyone will have a different list, but if I had to do it again I would buy the same boat, for us.
Don't know about NTs because I've never ridden on one, but having owned a GB for the last 17 years I can tell you that quartering into wind waves or high chop makes for a very wet boat. We don't care about that and it's good for the deck
)), but some boaters might not like a constant deluge of spray coming aboard on even a mildly windy day.Don't know about NTs because I've never ridden on one, but having owned a GB for the last 17 years I can tell you that quartering into wind waves or high chop makes for a very wet boat. We don't care about that and it's good for the deck
Some very good boats are wet. It's a characteristic and important to some people, but not an indication of the quality of the boat.
Carolena
Guru
Our NT can be a "wet" boat at times. Coming from smaller, planing power boats and a sailboat, I was a bit surprised at first. However, we quickly got used to it and with the pilothouse it really isn't an issue. In fact, last year we were on a trip where we had 30kt winds on the nose with short, steep chop. The winshield wipers got a good workout, but otherwise we were dry and comfortable in t-shirts in the pilothouse. Our friends in a flybridge boat following behind us to let us cut the waves and wind were not nearly as comfortable. In fact, we had spray going over our pilothouse and hitting them square on all the way up on the flybridge.
This is our first pilothouse boat and as of now I don't think we will ever have another boat without a pilothouse. We initially wanted both a pilothouse and flybridge but as we all know every boat is a compromise. I don't even miss being outside in the really nice weather - just open all the windows, doors and hatches and there is a ton of airflow, and it is actually nice to be out of the sun. If it gets too hot, we can close up and run the generator. When it is cold, everyone wants to ride with us becuase we have heat.
This is our first pilothouse boat and as of now I don't think we will ever have another boat without a pilothouse. We initially wanted both a pilothouse and flybridge but as we all know every boat is a compromise. I don't even miss being outside in the really nice weather - just open all the windows, doors and hatches and there is a ton of airflow, and it is actually nice to be out of the sun. If it gets too hot, we can close up and run the generator. When it is cold, everyone wants to ride with us becuase we have heat.
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In smaller boats, it is my opinion and theory that a wet ride and a good ride are counter to one another. A decent riding(ie good sea boat) is usually wet because the forward part of the boat is going THROUGH the weather and not over it. When it goes through the weather, you get spray. When you go over it(ie dry), it is not a good ride.
Carolena
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That is a good oberservation Baker. I had not thought of it that way. Actually, I've noticed that our NT just shoulders into the chop, while my friends in the relatively lighter flybridge boats are bouncing around.
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It is the reason a semi planing hull is chosen for a boat that will go faster than hull speed. A semi planing hull is less efficient than a pure planing hull due to the fact that the forward part of the hull is not producing much lift. But the advantage to this is what I mentioned above. No lift means the forward sections are going THROUGH the water and not over it. A semi planing hull is a much better ride in chop than a planing hull because of this!!!
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sunchaser
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That is very nice, good sun and rain protection when out and about with secure side decks for safety.
The N57 is my favorite setup. Full covered walk around except at the aft port salon. Port and starboard boarding doors on both salon and PH level.
But size matters, can't have it all in a 30 something footer.
healhustler
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Yeah, and great hand rails too! That baby sure rides downhill at the stern.
