Oil Change Frequency

Eric, there seem to be two schools of thought on bypass filter strategy.* Well, three actually if you include those who see no value to them.* First are those like Gulf Coast who think that by changing the big by pass filter and topping up the oil you add enough additive package to keep the oil functioning as it should.* That's why they sell a filter without additives.* Second are those like Puradyn who sell a filter that includes a slow release additive package that supposedly keeps the additives at optimum levels.* One function of the additives is to cause the carbon bits to stick together (agglomerate) so they can be picked up by the OEM filter, which usually will let pass anything less than 15 microns.* Bypass filters have a much larger total surface area that filter down to a micron or so, and are plumbed with the inlet to the filter to the pressure side, and the outlet to the oil pan.* On Delfin, the size unit I have filters at about 6 gallons an hour, whereas the OEM filter has the full flow of oil going through it at all times.

Just to be perverse, I have the Puradyn, but use the filter they make without additives because it is cheaper, and I spend the difference on oil analysis.* In any case, I'm only extending the change interval while having the assurance that whether new or not, the oil has very, very few particles in it large enough to cause wear.

I'm not sure whether Gulf Coast uses paper towels, but the TP version was and still is made by Frantz.* Or at least I think it is.

Alternatives are spin filters, which are used on most industrial sized engines, with an interesting and very cheap model being manufactured in India, the name of which I can't remember.*

The argument against bypass filters is an argument against clean oil, whatever your philosophy on change frequency is.* At least IMHO.

bshanafelt wrote:

Gullf Coast (paper towel) Oil filter canisters can be had on ebay.

I got mine for around $80.

Very easy to install on my Cummins 5.9B.

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BS

I was facing about $800 to convert my boat to Bounty, with all the sundry accoutrements, and no first hand knowledge that it would work. If I could have done it for a hundred or two, I'd have given it a shot.

Love your avitar Cary!
Well*** ...it seems to me my practice of changing my oil more frequently and doing the filter only every third time is better than I thought. Since I only leave one quart of old oil my additive package is mostly changed (80%) so my control of carbon is high relative to my time and money spent on the oil issue. It sounds like the additives in the fresh oil should grab onto the bits of carbon in the little bit of remaining oil make it filterable w the OEM filter. In view of the fact that my new engine will last well over 10000hrs at 80% load and I operate at about 60% anything beyond regular changes probably would be a waste of time and money but I'm a lot like you Carl** ... I get great satisfaction out of doing things a bit closer to perfection that the average bloke.

Where did this "additives grab little bits of carbon" get started? I thought that was the filters job. Chevron has a good description of what additives do on their website - I missed the carbon grabbing statement.

Soot starts out <.05 microns, too small to be filtered out by much of anything.* Without the right additives, the carbon attaches to itself, deposits on parts and causes wear.* The OEM can't filter out particles until they are larger than about 20 microns, which is large enough to cause some wear.

The biggest component of all additive packages in diesel oil (even Chevron's) are chemicals that keep carbon soot from forming large enough particles to cause wear.* Here is what Amsoil has to say about it.* In their statement, they are referring to the kind of agglomeration that occurs without dispersants, that is, when the carbon simply clings to itself eventually making chunky style oil:

AMSOIL synthetic diesel oils are formulated with robust additive packages
that effectively disperse soot particles so they do not agglomerate and
cause engine damage. In actual on-highway heavy-duty truck field trials, at
soot levels as high as 10 percent volume and higher, AMSOIL diesel oils
maintained an extremely low viscosity of 17 cSt. Excellent wear control was
maintained with an average iron content under 50 ppm. AMSOIL diesel oils
provide outstanding protection against viscosity thickening and soot
generated wear.

But I have been told that there is an effect of dispersant chemicals that enhances soot filtration with the small micron rating of a bypass filter.* The way polyamines that make up the dispersant chemistry work is that they provide a receptor site for a tiny soot particle to attach to, rather than allowing them to attach to each other.* The net effect, I believe, is to create groups of particles and polyamines that are still pretty small - < a couple of microns, but still large enough to be trapped in the bypass filter, if not the OEM filter.*

Sunchaser, for a description of the "carbon grabbing" concept you find elusive, here is an excerpt from another site that explains it pretty well.

Dispersants : These are chemicals that can disperse and suspend solid particles formed in the combustion of fuel that might otherwise be deposited in your engine as sludge.* Consisting mainly of polyamine chemistry, these molecules have* polar heads that attach to acidic molecules and solids such as **soot, and a hydrocarbon tail that keeps it all in suspension until removed by the filter or oil change.* Think of them as pollywogs who surround a particle the fat heads bite the particle and the tails keeps them swimming.* Dispersants are the largest component in the DI pack, especially in diesel formulations where there are a lot more soot particles to deal with.

After installing our bypass filter, the oil got cleaner, but not like new.* I assume this is because there will still be the very small soot particles that can't be caught by the Puradyn, and therefore can't really cause wear, but are enough to darken the oil a bit.

-- Edited by Delfin on Sunday 12th of December 2010 08:07:37 PM

Eric, I don't think the OEM filter will do much good for the size particle formed with normal diesel oil, since they are still too small.* Your changing the oil more frequently will remove the soot, but the OEM filter won't until the particles get up over 20 microns - which is getting pretty big.* The dispersant additives keep the lunkers from forming, but do so by attaching themselves to the soot, making a larger particle still too small to filter by the OEM, but maybe by a finer filter.

Your routine sounds pretty good to me.* Either way, both of our engines will probably outlive us.

nomadwilly wrote:

Love your avitar Cary!
Well*** ...it seems to me my practice of changing my oil more frequently and doing the filter only every third time is better than I thought. Since I only leave one quart of old oil my additive package is mostly changed (80%) so my control of carbon is high relative to my time and money spent on the oil issue. It sounds like the additives in the fresh oil should grab onto the bits of carbon in the little bit of remaining oil make it filterable w the OEM filter. In view of the fact that my new engine will last well over 10000hrs at 80% load and I operate at about 60% anything beyond regular changes probably would be a waste of time and money but I'm a lot like you Carl** ... I get great satisfaction out of doing things a bit closer to perfection that the average bloke.

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Eric, Eric, EricYou know that I don't get credit for my avatar. I stole that photo from Marin. He is actually responsible for three different avatars I have used. He's got a great eye.
I am sort of with you on the oil changes. I began, about fifteen years ago changing oil every hundred hours. Then, seeing that the manufacturer (not that they have my interests at heart) were recommending 250 hours, I had to re-think the whole thing. I now change oil every two hundred hours. I did skip the filter change once, but found mysel feeling so dirty that I couldn't face myself in the mirror (not that it's all that easy under the best of circumstances). I now change every two hundred hours, or once per year. It feels so good to get that off my chest.*

*



-- Edited by Carey on Sunday 12th of December 2010 11:14:40 PM

Delfin

Ahhhh, now I understand. Once again the Amsoil debate.

Tom, it doesn't matter what oil you use, all have the same additives to attract soot, forming 'agglomerated' larger particles, which are still too small to be filtered with the OEM filter.* Amsoil, Delo, take your pick, they all work the same.

"Probably overkill based on the oil report, but oil is cheap."

Dino oil is cheap,

If you ran synthetic you might have a different concept dumping $250 worth of oil.

FF, the cheapest synthetic I've found is Rotella T at WalMart for $17.00/gallon.* I thought that was pretty good....

Dino oil is cheap,

If you ran synthetic you might have a different concept dumping $250 worth of oil.



I agree on the synthetic - but since I use Delo with my Gulf coast Paper towel filter, these are the costs:


every 100 hrs:
-paper towel $1
-1 gallon of oil $10


every year:
-oil sample test $20


every 400 hrs:
-paper towel $1
-engine oil filter $10
-5 gallons of oil $50


my oil is so clean, even the admirial will check it with bare hands.

Is all Rotella T synthetic? I use it but had no idea.

Almost as good as Delo 400 at Costco for $9/gallon. Most oils work just fine if you by select per engine spec, *change out by the book hours and watch for contaminant buildup*- it just comes down to what you want to pay and believing justifications for "synthetic" elixirs.

I'm at a disadvantage in oil selection discussions. I've operated/managed hundreds of pieces of diesel equipment during my lifetime and*use engine warranty requirements as guidelines. So my mind is made up.

bshanfelt

Gee, 400 hours is as good as my book says for normal changeout*out interval for oil and filters. I cheat though, I do it every fall whether it is at 400 hours or not, This season I did it at about 365 hours, my biggest engine use year yet.

But it is interesting, whether Gulf Coast setups, Amsoil, go by the book oils etc, there are very few marine internal engine*problems due to*lubrication failures. The engine failures I am aware of are all to often due to neglect of cooling systems, fuel system inattention, air filter problems, corrosion, not performing engine checks to pick up early warning signs, plain stupidity etc. You will never ever see on boatdiesel.com "my engine failed due to bad lubrication oil."

My guess is whether you or Delfin, you are following*mechanical issues*pretty closely and catch impending problems well before they become catastrophic. Your use of Gulf Coast shows a good hands on approach - this is why you don't have issues I betcha!!

Doc wrote:

Is all Rotella T synthetic? I use it but had no idea.

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DocThere are a variety of Rotella T products. Some are synthetic, some partially and some not. I use Rotella T 30 wt, as recommended by Caterpillar, and it is not synthetic.

*

No Doc.* The synthetic is in the blue container.* I think it's only about $4.00 more than the dino variety.

If your engine gets so hot that regular dino oil is in danger of failing your engine manufacturer will specify synthetic and you should use it. Otherwise buying and using synthetic is a waste of money. Like buying "premium" gas for your car when you don't need it**** ...again** ..a waste of money. Again** ..read the manual and use what's specified. *If you change your oil twice as often** ..that will actually extend your engine's life** ..some small amount. That's my opinion.

nomadwilly wrote:

If your engine gets so hot that regular dino oil is in danger of failing your engine manufacturer will specify synthetic and you should use it. Otherwise buying and using synthetic is a waste of money. Like buying "premium" gas for your car when you don't need it**** ...again** ..a waste of money. Again** ..read the manual and use what's specified. *If you change your oil twice as often** ..that will actually extend your engine's life** ..some small amount. That's my opinion.

*

Hmm....the dealer of the Twindisk gear I have says I have to use Delo 300 for oil because synthetic is too slippery for it too work correctly.* Is slippery oil better than less slippery oil?* Manufacturers recommend service categories for the oil used, not its base composition.

Regular oil works fine as you're using it.* But denying the superiority of important chemical properties of synthetic oil over dino oil isn't really empirically supportable.* The superiority of synthetic oil may not be worth the price to many, but it is to me.* Since most engine wear occurs from particles in the 5 to 10 micron range, and since the OEM filter won't remove many particles in that range, a bypass filter that does makes some sense.* Add synthetic oil to the mix, and it would seem to be the best I can do to ensure I get maximum life out of the noisemaker.

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*

Delfin,
When you listen to a dealer listen w both ears open. One for incoming information and the other for your own personal exhaust, discharging false information, BS and other rubbish.
Dealers are not engineers** ..lubricating, mechanical or otherwise. They just pass on information, BS and rubbish that they hear from other similarly informed and misinformed individuals.
There are advantages to synthetic lubricants just like there unquestionably is aielen life forms in outer space. Got to be some advantage. But I'm convinced it's fly stuff. If your'e running a racing motorcycle that gets its "oil" up about 300 degrees or if you are going to be required to start your engine cold at 30 below*** ..to be sure you NEED synthetic lube.
Now that I've bashed your dealer at least 6' under**** ...there's a chance he's right. So what do you want*** ..to keep your engine parts from wearing excessively or do you want the lowest friction and greatest efficency*** ... or do you want it all. Of course you*want it all*BUT how much will you gain from a measurable reduction in friction? Your engine may go 20000hrs w dino oil or 20500hrs w syn lube or even 20000hrs w either??? When I rode a motorcycle in the summer in Montana I used syn lube*to maintain the lubes higher viscosity at extreme temps. The opposite is true in a trawler. Most guys run trawlers w such a low load they don't get hot enough (warm enough) to allow their dino lube oil to perform as it should. I've recommended to some to disconnect their oil cooler. Anyway I don't think synthetic lube is worth the trouble or money if indeed there is any advantage at all.

nomadwilly wrote:

*

Delfin,
When you listen to a dealer listen w both ears open. One for incoming information and the other for your own personal exhaust, discharging false information, BS and other rubbish.
Dealers are not engineers** ..lubricating, mechanical or otherwise. They just pass on information, BS and rubbish that they hear from other similarly informed and misinformed individuals.
There are advantages to synthetic lubricants just like there unquestionably is aielen life forms in outer space. Got to be some advantage. But I'm convinced it's fly stuff. If your'e running a racing motorcycle that gets its "oil" up about 300 degrees or if you are going to be required to start your engine cold at 30 below*** ..to be sure you NEED synthetic lube.
Now that I've bashed your dealer at least 6' under**** ...there's a chance he's right. So what do you want*** ..to keep your engine parts from wearing excessively or do you want the lowest friction and greatest efficency*** ... or do you want it all. Of course you*want it all*BUT how much will you gain from a measurable reduction in friction? Your engine may go 20000hrs w dino oil or 20500hrs w syn lube or even 20000hrs w either??? When I rode a motorcycle in the summer in Montana I used syn lube*to maintain the lubes higher viscosity at extreme temps. The opposite is true in a trawler. Most guys run trawlers w such a low load they don't get hot enough (warm enough) to allow their dino lube oil to perform as it should. I've recommended to some to disconnect their oil cooler. Anyway I don't think synthetic lube is worth the trouble or money if indeed there is any advantage at all.

*

Click to expand...

Actually the guy I spoke with is the service manager at Twindisk in Seattle.* He said the reason synthetic is the wrong oil is because it has too high a lubricity rating, not I presume because he is a big shareholder in dino oil ltd.* High lubricity I believe translates to higher efficiency through lower friction, which would seem to be desirable.* But one thing I have learned from this site is that you can offer cancer cure in a can, and there will be five people explaining why cancer is desirable.
*

Anyway I don't think synthetic lube is worth the trouble or money if indeed there is any advantage at all.

Depends.

For the commercial folks the ability to operate 24/7 with oil that WITH SAMPELING can go 1000 or 2000 hours and only have to change filters , not oil, is very worthwhile.

A 2% or 3% decrease in fuel consumption doesn't come to much on a 3gph engine run 100 hours a year, probably not even the cost of sampeling.

My reason for sticking with Dino oil is the lack of use , sometimes weeks between uses, and the dino oil is better at rust prevention than the rapidly draining syn oil.

The "price" of dino oil was the cost of a block heater , as our DD demands 40 wt CFII oil that is thick as mud below freezing .

FF is spot on regarding quicker drain down of synthetics from engine parts as compared to dino oil. There are however additives (think Andy Granitelli)*for synthetics that somewhat counteract this problem. But, as*suggested by many "neutral" engineers in the business, for infrequent and low stress* engine use ( such as low RPM trawlering), dino oils may indeed provide better protection during that initial few seconds of start up.

But, as Eric says, *I doubt that any of us would see the difference between synthetics and dino on our few hundred hour per year toys.


-- Edited by sunchaser on Tuesday 14th of December 2010 10:31:23 AM

"FF is spot on regarding quicker drain down of synthetic"

My experience strongly suggests the opposite. However "my experience" was w a 2 cycle motorcycle racing oil. It has such a high viscosity it won't flow in oil injection systems. Obviously it's a pre-mix only lube. Could be quite different than run of the mill synthetics like Mobil 1.

I suspect that in the kinds of engines most of our boats have, while there may be theoretical or even scientific differences between the wear experienced with dinosaur oil and synthetic oil, the reality is that all our engines will fail for some other reason long before "normal" wear becomes a significant factor. Some may die from underuse. Some may die of being run too hard. Some may die from overheating. Some may die from a catastrophic mechanical failure of some sort. But I suspect none of them--- or very, very few at best--- will die because of the wear that results with proper lubrication regardless of the whether the oil is conventional or synthetic.

Some current generation engines may require the use of synthetics because of very tight tolerance or other reasons. That's fine, and if that's the case then synthetics should be used per the manufacturer's specifications.

But the Lehmans and Perkins and (older) Cats and Cummins and Deeres, and so on aren't going to run any longer on synthetic than conventional oil because they'll fail for some other reason long before the type of oil is going to become a difference.

This seems to be the opinion of the objective (aka realist) marine diesel experts I've talked to on occasion on this subject.

Dino-oil slow to drain?* My mother told me to change oil from a warm engine.

Call me silly, but I prefer changing oil filters at every oil change.* If the oil needs changing, I don't see the benefit of leaving an oil-filter full of over-aged/dirty oil.* We aren't making sourdough bread, you know.

-- Edited by markpierce on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 07:02:37 PM

Mark,Yea that's what Marin thinks too. I say Hmmmm should I change the oil in the engine and leave the filter or should I just leave it all till normal change time. I change the oil AND filter about as much as you guys do but I change just the engine oil in between those times. And Mom's right. Also changing it after 3 hrs running under higher loads is much better than warming the engine 10 min only. Sourdough bread sounds good though.

One key thought for cruisers is to have enough oil and filters on board for at least 3 oil changes.

Any bo bo in a wet exhaust or oil cooler can mean water in the crank case.

Immediate oil change is in order!!

FF

3 oil changes?? That is like carrying a spare pair of shorts in your back pocket in anticipation of ----?



-- Edited by sunchaser on Thursday 16th of December 2010 10:57:59 AM

"That is like carrying a spare pair of shorts in your back pocket in anticipation of ----?"

You don't?