Market value for Krogen Manatee

healhustler said:

Geesh. What a sad situation if true. Both Dave and Eric have good points....that is that you can afford to spend some money on these boats and still recover a good part of your investment, especially if you do the work yourself. It would be a shame to loose one. As far as I know, 98 out of the 99 built are still around. One burned in a marina fire several years ago. The hull is an uncompromised full displacement but is not built for blue water assumptions. I know a lot more about tearing apart these boats then I do behavoir in blue water so I'll yield to my more savvy cruising colleagues. However, I do think the Manatee's limitation in rough seas has a lot more to do with its high helm position (wear and tear on the pilot) than vessel capability.

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In all fairness to the boat, this guy was looking to import the boat into Canada, so 9.5% tax because it was built outside of the Nafta agreement, 7.5% Provincial Tax plus 5% Federal Tax. Plus he was going to have it shipped up here using one of those delivery ships. No idea what that would cost but not cheap I bet. So he was probably spending $30,000 just to get it into Canada. At the time the owner was looking to get $118,000 for the boat. If the price is right it could be worth it but go into it with both eyes open.

There are no problems that time and money can't solve.

DCBD said:

In all fairness to the boat, this guy was looking to import the boat into Canada, so 9.5% tax because it was built outside of the Nafta agreement, 7.5% Provincial Tax plus 5% Federal Tax. Plus he was going to have it shipped up here using one of those delivery ships. No idea what that would cost but not cheap I bet. So he was probably spending $30,000 just to get it into Canada. At the time the owner was looking to get $118,000 for the boat. If the price is right it could be worth it but go into it with both eyes open.

There are no problems that time and money can't solve.

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I think that's fairness to the owner, not the boat. None of that changes the condition of the boat or the fact it's basically been abandoned for many years.

Yes, there are no problems that time and money can't solve, but just from what we already know this one would require a lot of time and a lot of money. Right now it's not operable so even figuring out the full extent of issues is difficult. Honestly, the extent of rust we're being told about makes one even wonder if it's been sunk at some point. Regardless, You can't do a survey and sea trial at this point so you have to assume the worst on those things you can't check.

If I was making an offer on it, it would be subject to surveys and sea trial and it would also have a requirement the owner get it running so those could be done.

BandB said:

I think that's fairness to the owner, not the boat. None of that changes the condition of the boat or the fact it's basically been abandoned for many years.

Yes, there are no problems that time and money can't solve, but just from what we already know this one would require a lot of time and a lot of money. Right now it's not operable so even figuring out the full extent of issues is difficult. Honestly, the extent of rust we're being told about makes one even wonder if it's been sunk at some point. Regardless, You can't do a survey and sea trial at this point so you have to assume the worst on those things you can't check.

If I was making an offer on it, it would be subject to surveys and sea trial and it would also have a requirement the owner get it running so those could be done.

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That's kind of what I meant when I said to go into it with both eyes open.

Pfan said:

This is a great forum and I should know, I belong to a few (too many). My weakness is for the unique, the forgotten, and the rescue of projects that are best left to mother nature. This is just a cool boat that I would like to give a new life but....makes little sense economically or time wise. Not timid after a daunting project like the worlds largest land yacht 4x4 saved from the grave a few years ago...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/4x4woodie/2700905093/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/4x4woodie/2816849042/

Thanks again for all your comments..

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Yeah....I think we've got a lot in common that way. Before the Manatee, I had many one-off truck restorations, specializing in IHC. I think one has to have a bit of this oddball passion to really appreciate the Manatee. Either that or an extreme case of practicality. Regardless, most Manatee owners are smiling from the treasure of comfort they enjoy behind the functional facade.

Here is the Hatteras I referred to. You get the Krogen for $55,000 or the Hat for even as much as $115-120,00 you will be dollars ahead with the Hatteras is my guess. The Hatteras also has a cult following.
I have already done this trick you are looking at and took my beating. Buy a better boat or get the Krogen so very cheap you can weather the coming storm. Unless he gets lucky or spends some real money it will go cheap. My thought, based on other posters and my ass beating $40k would be high. The mere thought of cored hull (which I did not know) makes my blood run cold.

If you determine to go through with this, spend the cash for a mechanical and overall out of the water survey. Find out about your surveyors before selection. You REALLY need to know what all is wrong. There will be enough unanticipated surprises even with the mother of all surveys.

One more thing stir in 5gallons of aggravation, lost of your time to the mix.

1981 Hatteras LRC MK II Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Mule said:

The mere thought of cored hull (which I did not know) makes my blood run cold.

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That's the second reference to the Krogen fully cored hull with a head dramatically beating itself against a brick wall. Makes me curious, what's the issue. Most if not all Krogens have fully cored hulls and I can't remember ever hearing of any negative issue related to this. Mine obviously is cored and I love it, even with our cold water temperatures I can lay down in my engine space and be warm enough to fall asleep. My boat is as strong and seaworthy as any other boat in it's size class. So what am I missing here?

When a leak takes place in a cored hull, ESPECIALLY BALSA the water just travels to the low point, and especially on cored decks that low point changes. Then there is the condensation within after water makes its way in. Can be a real, expensive, labor intensive mess.

We are not discussing a well kept, regularly dived and hauled out boat. I assume, from your postings your boat fits into that catagory. This is a neglected boat, perhaps with a saturated cored hull. Thru hulls not serviced or inspected, electrolysis could be a factor.

Nothing is wrong with a cored hull or decks for that matter but special care must be taken when drilling and so fourth. In fact for livability, sound dreading and insulation they are great, not to mention strength vs weight. When they go south though, look out.

Mule said:

When a leak takes place in a cored hull, ESPECIALLY BALSA the water just travels to the low point, and especially on cored decks that low point changes. Then there is the condensation within after water makes its way in. Can be a real, expensive, labor intensive mess.

We are not discussing a well kept, regularly dived and hauled out boat. I assume, from your postings your boat fits into that catagory. This is a neglected boat, perhaps with a saturated cored hull. Thru hulls not serviced or inspected, electrolysis could be a factor.

Nothing is wrong with a cored hull or decks for that matter but special care must be taken when drilling and so fourth. In fact for livability, sound dreading and insulation they are great, not to mention strength vs weight. When they go south though, look out.

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I see. I guess I was just being defensive because the comments seemed to infer that a fully cored hull is a stupid idea. You see I also have a Volvo engine so I'm a little sensitive. Thank goodness I got rid of my Bruce anchor.

healhustler said:

Yeah....I think we've got a lot in common that way. Before the Manatee, I had many one-off truck restorations, specializing in IHC. I think one has to have a bit of this oddball passion to really appreciate the Manatee. Either that or an extreme case of practicality. Regardless, most Manatee owners are smiling from the treasure of comfort they enjoy behind the functional facade.

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That's small world interesting/funny. I have owned six woodie Binders....about 20% of the known survivors. If you google "4x4 woodie" you should get my old flicker site with full restoration pics. Only a IHC guy will get it.

Update...The owner has offered to get it cleaned and running in our discussions but I think his path of least resistance is to let it sit. We initiated the "is it for sale" inquiry so motivation/price makes me not optimistic that this will lead to anything.

The deal breaker for me is the engine has sat for six years. My mechanic (years of experience with boats) has said there's a 90% chance the engine needs to be rebuilt. Loosely..."salt air gets into the engine thru the intake, exhaust and crankcase breather....it circulates thoughout the engine thru open valves, oil passageways, valve covers, and crankcase and every surface that once was oiled goes dry and rust starts. This includes the cyl walls, piston rings, rockers and valve train, etc. If the engine isnt already frozen, any attempt to start it will most likely score the cyl walls, break rings after a few hours running, and distribute rust debri throughout. A mere filter change does little".

To his credit, the owner said the boat was "pickled" properly so maybe all this was dealt with.

I am sure we will find an alternative boat that fits our needs (an aft deck big enough for 8 man poker and wife friendly aesthetics). The Hatteras is very cool but the design doesn't work for us. Its a big harbor full of options.

Dave: The trouble with sensitive guys like us is that we're sensitive enough to appreciate this style of boat but too sensitive to bear the comments it frequently provokes. Our Island is a particularly nice example. I stole the idea of the half-height upper deck canvas right off a photo of your boat that I still have around here somewhere.

DCBD said:

That's the second reference to the Krogen fully cored hull with a head dramatically beating itself against a brick wall. Makes me curious, what's the issue. Most if not all Krogens have fully cored hulls and I can't remember ever hearing of any negative issue related to this. Mine obviously is cored and I love it, even with our cold water temperatures I can lay down in my engine space and be warm enough to fall asleep. My boat is as strong and seaworthy as any other boat in it's size class. So what am I missing here?

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My Krogen 54 has a fully cored hull (Airex - closed cell PVC). I personally sounded the hull with a plastic mallet at the haulout and it rang like a bell. Except around the through-hulls where it was solid as it should be. No dull thuds.

The boat spent the winter in Ketchikan, AK - and it remained as dry as a bone inside - no condensation and warm.

I'm not going to worry - you shouldn't either.

I do, on the other hand, have a Bruce on my bow roller...

Richard

Britannia said:

...

I do, on the other hand, have a Bruce on my bow roller...

Richard

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Good man!

Wow! Talk about thread drift. I make the following offhand remark directed at the subject boat 20 posts ago (The only thing left to make this boat any less desirable is if it also has a saturated hull core) and the whole thread fell apart. Sorry gang.

I'm a great KK admirer and if the stars align I will own one, cored hull and all. All better now?

healhustler said:

Dave: The trouble with sensitive guys like us is that we're sensitive enough to appreciate this style of boat but too sensitive to bear the comments it frequently provokes. Our Island is a particularly nice example. I stole the idea of the half-height upper deck canvas right off a photo of your boat that I still have around here somewhere.

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OK Larry, that sounds better than the truth (my wife was going to shoot me if I didn't buy it). So yea, lets go with that.

Britannia said:

My Krogen 54 has a fully cored hull (Airex - closed cell PVC). I personally sounded the hull with a plastic mallet at the haulout and it rang like a bell. Except around the through-hulls where it was solid as it should be. No dull thuds.

The boat spent the winter in Ketchikan, AK - and it remained as dry as a bone inside - no condensation and warm.

I'm not going to worry - you shouldn't either.

I do, on the other hand, have a Bruce on my bow roller...

Richard

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Actually I have never had any concerns with my Airex fully cored hull. However I am having trouble digesting the idea that owning one puts me at a higher than average risk for hull problems, which I had until now always believed were the result of poor workmanship. It troubles me to think that friends and associates might be bashing their heads against brick walls when I'm not watching.

I think any boat that has had the benefit of good workmanship when installing through hull fittings would probably be OK sitting for six years without any inspections. I pull mine every couple of years and have a diver come twice a year but in all my years of boating the only time I've changed a through hull was when I installed a new transducer. I would be much more concerned with electrolysis issues on this particular boat than hull problems.

I think you have a great looking boat. I've always admired the 54, even more than the 46 Nordhavn. Now about that Bruce...

When the subject of cored hulls is brought up I would say one word....Boston Whaler what a dismall failure. We have owned and cruised our Manatee for over eight years and the comfort afforded by the cored hull is a plus with no negatives.
Back to the partnership on the subject Manatee, Krogen puts in Quality construction so restoring an abused vessel can be brought back to life, it will be a labor of love. I would offer half the asking price knowing that it will be a long haul restoring the Manatee.

HiDHo said:

W I would say one word....Boston Whaler what a dismall failure..

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That seems by my math to be slightly more than one word. However, could you elaborate on those six words as I'm not sure what your point is there. I'm missing something.

That Boston Whaler has a cored hull and it's quality and durability has been proven. The fact that a Krogen would also use this type of construction speaks for itself.
The 45 lb CQR anchor we have also works if you know how to anchor.

HiDHo said:

That Boston Whaler has a cored hull and it's quality and durability has been proven. The fact that a Krogen would also use this type of construction speaks for itself.
The 45 lb CQR anchor we have also works if you know how to anchor.

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Thanks for elaborating. It made no sense to me only because I didn't catch the sarcasm. Guess I'm tired.

The key is getting a well built and well taken care of boat. There are well built cored boats and poorly built solid boats.

Cored hulls using closed-cell foam seemed to be a good idea for the construction of this boat. Lightweight, stiff, impact resistant and insulating qualities for sound and temperature helped the life and live-ability of Manatees. I don't have anything at all against investing in a waterlogged Manatee hull, or a KK 42' for that matter. The process of peel, dry out and glass over has decades of success with these and many other cored hull boats. Osprey Boatworks in Maryland must have dozens of KK reconstructions alone, but with a 20-30k pricetag, shew!, I'd sure want to be knowing about the hull I was investing in, and simply subtract that cost from my offer.

Today, I was aboard a Manatee that was offered for sale on this sight last year and was suspected to have a questionable bottom. The new owners bought the boat with this understanding, put it in a good yard and found the bottom heavily blistered, but after close inspection, none were deep. The areas were ground and repaired as needed and no peel and glass process was necessary. My guess is that this new owner has spent 2/3rds of the purchase price in improving the vessel. Save for maybe the Manatee owned by Jimmy Krogen Jr., this boat was perhaps the most impressive Manatee I've ever been aboard and should bring a premium on resale.

So, was there a sale?

No...I think its dead in the water (lol). We never got into a negotiation since his optimistic..."clean and good to go" didn't wash. I think he thought it was my first regatta (rodeo) but I wasn't going to go down in his financial ship. We secured a mooring and are still seriously looking for the right vessel to float our boat. Ok...I'm out of silly puns (etc)!

All kidding aside, the seller paid market for a nice Manatee that suffered unknown depreciation. He wasn't a motivated seller which was no surprise since we initiated the inquiry. We were $50K buyers but I think it would have taken more...maybe alot more. Thank all who responded...you have a great group and forum. Gary