Engines and Oil Analysis

long-cours.62 · Apr 25, 2015

I just got the oil analysis of our engines ( made by a potential buyer )Ok everything is green except for the presence of copper noted 3 (of 5, 5 being the worst)

The engines are Perkins/Sabre 6354 215c1400 h ,Never run over 1,900 rev/min continuous rather 1600 / 1700trmn ,Never overloaded ( just need to see our consumption ) :blush:

Oil changed every 200 hours or annually (at first of terms).Always emptied before wintering or long stop for no " marinate " with the "old" oil.Always temperature rise and gradual loaded and the gradual reduction of charge before stop
Someone among you had the same kind ofreport with this type of engines ?

Thanks

ulysses · Apr 25, 2015

Typically the copper is from leaching of the cooler core not necessarily a problem and does not mean that the cooler is bad. Typical wear and chemical reaction within the cooler.

dan

psneeld · Apr 25, 2015

Isn't that why the analysis labs are sticklers for pattern? Or lack of pattern when taking the sample?

Its usually an abnormality that grabs their attention and leaching would be consistent if the samples taken were consistent.

My lab (Blackstone) I believe takes a stab at what the "out of norm" level is.

ulysses · Apr 25, 2015

The report looks French to me, but if it states that the copper is at 36 ppm that is not too high. Have you changed out the oil cooler within the last 500 hours? Often they will have a "break in period" where the copper levels can reach several hundred ppm then it will gradually reduce over time and oil changes.

dan

sunchaser · Apr 25, 2015

Questions:

What brand and weight oil are you using?
What brand of oil filters are you using?
What year are your engines?
Do you have mani cooler or after cooler or neither?
Is your oil cooler coolant or seawater cooled?
When you change your oil do you get all the old oil out or are there a few liters left?

DavidM · Apr 25, 2015

I agree with most of what has been said above. Look at the tin and lead which are associated with bearing wear- very low. Also look at aluminum which is associtated with piston wear- also low.

Oil analysis labs are used to dealing with over the road and construction machinery and not marine engines which can get copper into the oil from the oil cooler. Does your engine have an engine oil cooler?

David

long-cours.62 · Apr 25, 2015

I will try to answer

djmarchand said:
I agree with most of what has been said above. Look at the tin and lead which are associated with bearing wear- very low. Also look at aluminum which is associtated with piston wear- also low.

Oil analysis labs are used to dealing with over the road and construction machinery and not marine engines which can get copper into the oil from the oil cooler. Does your engine have an engine oil cooler?

David

I will try to answer to you for more precision:
- yes it is a French company (as you can imagine when you read my poor English

)
- our engines are 13 years old (during the last 4.5 years for familial reasons we don't use too much our boat)
- yes cooler for oïl, raw water/coolant/oil
- we remove oils with the pum fited in the side of engine we stop pumping when we just pum ...air, waiting pumping the little rest again again until we got just air (I don't know how much oïl remain betwen the botom of the carter and pipe of the pump )
- oïl filter are the same brand than the engine : Perkins
- oïl 10w40 normes ACEA A3/B4, API SL/CF
- the actual oïl have 60 hours use but near one year old
normaly we change it at 200 hours or 1 year old, or before long stop

Thanks all for your prompt and precises answer

:dance:

DavidM · Apr 25, 2015

I am not sure that my word would make the potential buyer feel better or not. But in any case I think the copper level is fine and I wouldn't hesitate to buy the boat based on that analysis.

David

caltexflanc · Apr 25, 2015

Well it depends on what the spec for the engine is, as to whether it is "fine" or not. On some engines copper can be a wear indicator of bushings, thrust washers, bearings, etc. On my Detroits the spec for copper is 25 max and is an engine wear indicator. A "one off" test, as noted above could be from less critical sources, or just a spurious reading you need a trend over time to see the real picture. I once got a 107 on my Cummins generator engine which had always been 1 . Turned out to be a bad sample, it returned to 1 on all succeeding samples. I did tests with every oil change.

sunchaser · Apr 25, 2015

I am quite familiar with these engines. My experience is that approximately 20 to 25%% of the oil remains in the sump after hand pumping dependent upon the engines install angle. Something I have done is to add 4 liters of new oil to the "empty" engine and pump it out again, effectively a flushing.

Do you have two engines? If so did the other one show copper levels the same as what you attached? Until you get the boat sold you may want to change out the oil spring and fall. I'm with David, no cause for alarm. The oil cooler is coolant cooled on most these engines, potentially lasting a very long time. The weak spot on these and most marine engines are the after coolers. Had your sodium levels been elevated I'd have suspected an AC leak with salt water getting into the oil

A resample is not uncommon, with your own guy doing it and known containers and protocols. Ask Perkins Sabre's advice too, they may have a thought if the resample comes back the same. A letter from them saying no problem would be helpful.

Steve · Apr 25, 2015

If my reading of French is correct they are suggesting you do another sampling? That seems reasonable, if you have doubts, althought an midway reading 3 on 5 is not too bad.
I am curious, what do you have to pay for an oil sample analysis in France?

long-cours.62 · Apr 26, 2015

sunchaser said:
I am quite familiar with these engines. My experience is that approximately 20 to 25%% of the oil remains in the sump after hand pumping dependent upon the engines install angle. Something I have done is to add 4 liters of new oil to the "empty" engine and pump it out again, effectively a flushing.

Do you have two engines? If so did the other one show copper levels the same as what you attached? Until you get the boat sold you may want to change out the oil spring and fall. I'm with David, no cause for alarm. The oil cooler is coolant cooled on most these engines, potentially lasting a very long time. The weak spot on these and most marine engines are the after coolers. Had your sodium levels been elevated I'd have suspected an AC leak with salt water getting into the oil

A resample is not uncommon, with your own guy doing it and known containers and protocols. Ask Perkins Sabre's advice too, they may have a thought if the resample comes back the same. A letter from them saying no problem would be helpful.

Yes we have two engines and the result for both is absolutely similar (exept for "water " one is 0,01 and another is 0,02 of one percent).
I am not anxiouss even if our Customer don't buy the boat ! For sure my wife will be happy if he don't buy Hoa...may be she put some "powder of cupper in oïl !?

Thanks all for your advise

long-cours.62 · Apr 26, 2015

Cost of oil analyse

Steve said:
If my reading of French is correct they are suggesting you do another sampling? That seems reasonable, if you have doubts, althought an midway reading 3 on 5 is not too bad.
I am curious, what do you have to pay for an oil sample analysis in France?

I have no idea, the potential Customer order two prelevement kit and he come with the material send by this company.
I will check

I just check :

63,20 € for one analyse and the prelevement kit + expedition for example 19€ from France to Poland

sunchaser · Apr 26, 2015

It would be interesting to have virgin oil tested by that same lab, they may well have a bad copper lamp, it happens. One nice thing about Cat's SOS testing is the internal lab analysis screening. Some Cat labs will test 100s of samples per run with 1of 10 or 20 a blind of known value.

jleonard · Apr 27, 2015

longcours62 said:
I am not anxiouss even if our Customer don't buy the boat ! For sure my wife will be happy if he don't buy Hoa...may be she put some "powder of cupper in oïl !?

Yes I have one that might do the same

Engines and Oil Analysis

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