Let's Stir The Anchor Debate a Little, Shall We!!

http://threesheetsnw.com/blog/2015/...ail&utm_term=0_32a7fd0d23-8ef2021970-79471101

Why, oh why ... ???

Confused by anchors? Here’s an easy way to think about the styles of anchors out there — and which one is right for you.

Right for me? Yes, if I plan to decorate a garden with it.

Maybe for the boat? Not really, change the freaking roller/mount if the right anchor does not fit your boat's existing rigging.

Right for the environment and conditions your boat is anchored in? Yes, that's it ... but this article, and many other discussions, do not focus on that.

Yield the floor now ... :lol:

Fisheries are selling Rocnas. And doing a great job of it. Saying what anchor is best is a lot like saying what paint is best ... they all work good and the differences are usually small. The fisheries link is just selling Rocnas. And a link on the link is to Peter Smith. Rocna's are popular but as HOLLYWOOD has said in the past "there's a reason for that" but the obvious reason may not be the reason you're thinking.

And the very question of what anchor is best totally ignores what it would be best at. And actually what is probably most in demand is an anchor that shows (or attempts to show) how knowledgeable the owner of the boat is. Dragging is caused by poor bottoms ... not poor anchors.

What is popular is #1 in our culture. What is trending in pleasure boating now is trawlers and the anchor trending is what Marin calls "next generation" products. You've got to have them because it makes you "cool" in the heavy cruiser crowd. And of course being cool is .. well cool, but most importantly NOT UNCOOL. There are those that have no desire to be a rock star and run Bayliner boats w Claw or Danforth anchors. And there are those that have the most popular boats and the most popular anchors, engines, paint ect.

All kidding aside though the Rocna is a very high performance anchor. But it's interesting that they did so little market research that they didn't realize the market was limited to only certain boats because of bow design. Most of the people they wanted to sell anchors to had bow pulpits. So they went from "roll bars are where it's at" to just trying to upgrade the Spade.

Has there been any so called independent testing of the Vulcan? The shank is indeed very impressive and I'm speaking mostly of the I beam cross section and quality look.

manyboats said:

So they went from "roll bars are where it's at" to just trying to upgrade the Spade.

Has there been any so called independent testing of the Vulcan? The shank is indeed very impressive and I'm speaking mostly of the I beam cross section and quality look.

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Eric... For the umpteenth time, Rocna has not "gone from rollbars to an upgraded Spade." The rollbar anchor is still their primary product. They came out with the Vulcan because they recognize a market opportunity when they see one.

The majority of recreational boats have pulpits that can take a rollbar or any other kind of anchor. But there is a significant enough number of production boats like Bayliner/Meridian that for whatever reason have slotted pulpits which limits the types of anchors they can carry easily and neatly. It's a large enough market that Rocna decided to try to grab some of it -- designing and producing an anchor is probably less challenging and expensive than designing and making a car bumper so it's not like coming out with a new anchor is much of an investment on the part of the anchor manufacturer especially now that Rocna is just a tiny division of Canada (Pacific) Metals-- so they cranked out the Vulcan design based on basic design principles that work and put it into production.

And voila, a new product that fits the slotted pulpits on things like Bayliners and whatnot that carries the already respected and well-known Rocna name. Instant positive perception in a world where perception is 75% of everything.

Nowhere do they say the Vulcan represents an improvement in performance over their rollbar anchor. They say they're good, of course--what else would they say?

I suspect that were it not for the sales opportunity represented by the slotted pulpit folks, Rocna never would have bothered with the Vulcan. As I said, they're smart folks who don't let a chance to make another buck pass them by.

And the Vulcan may be a good anchor. It probably is. But like most other anchor types, it's just another "drop, drag, and hope" anchor as I call them, as opposed to the rollbar types' pro-active design that forces the anchor to dig in and begin to set the monent you pull on the rode. Which is why we bought one.

As an aside, here's an example of the power of consumer ego and image at work and how it can greatly benefit companies that sell consumer products. We were in Fisheries the other weekend for some nuts and bolts and passed their anchor display. Mostly Rocnas, as you say. But most of them are polished stainless-- you can even buy an expensive black "protection bag" to put over it so it won't get scratched out on the pulpit.

They had a Rocna 20, same model we have, on display but in polished stainless. Now when we bought ours, a Plain Jane galvanized model, Rocnas were very new to North America. We were told we bought the first one sold to the PNW. And they were expensive. We paid about $1,000 for ours.

Since then production costs have come down, due in no small part from moving its manufacture from New Zealand and Vancouver, BC to China. So a galvanized Rocna 20 costs significantly less today than when we bought ours. I believe they're in the neighborhood of five or six hundred dollars today, maybe less.

But the price of the polished stainless Rocna 20 at Fisheries is..... over $2,000. Given the cost of manufacturing and polishing a stainless anchor-- a job done entirely by machine-- Rocna (and all the other anchor manufacturers who do exactly the same thing) are undoubtedly roaring with laughter all the way to the bank and back.

Which is why creating the Vulcan anchor was probably done in a day using petty cash.

Well I did get a Rocna this past boat show. Fits my bow pulpit nice, but I did install a nylon strip on the end of the bow pulpit, so I can snug it up and attach safety straps.

This looks good ... nice setup!

Yes it looks nice.
But the Spade looks better.
But it dosn't work as well .. so I hear.

Marin if that's true (that pulpit anchors are a small percentage of the market) then you're right .. But all the other roll bar anchor manufacturers did the same thing. None came out w the RB anchor later as a side show. They viewed the market as RB hungry. And you'll notice most anchor manufacturers don't dabble in that market at all.

But if I had a pile of all the popular suitable sized anchors in front of me to choose from for a free anchor my first two choices would be RB anchors. So don't think of me as a non-believer. I believe in the anchors that have roll bars but I think roll bars are a negative part of the design. So I cut mine off haha. Better anchors will come that will not have roll bars so this is .. as everything else in the world is a step in the evolutionary process.

rt firefly said:

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rotfl

I think he is dead now. For the love of Pete, just end it already!

I'm a naughty boy!!!!

I'm such a pot stirrer........

anchor.....
anchor.....
anchor.....
anchor.....
anchor.....
anchor.....
anchor.....
anchor.....

Let's get serious now ...

... is this the right anchor under these circumstances?

When we purchased Magic, the PO had a beautiful stainless steel Suncor anchor on the bow. Man it was pretty. In the second roller was a genuine Scottish CQR. After taking delivery of Magic on the west coast of Florida, we travelled east across Lake Okeechobee to Stuart, FL on the east coast of the state. Upon arrival at a marina there, I negotiated a trade; one month of slip space and electric in exchange for the Suncor SS anchor. They said OK and I bought a Manson Supreme to replace it. Don't know who made out better, but I was/am happy.

Richard W said:

... is this the right anchor under these circumstances?

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No, and here's why. Plants will grow up this anchor, which is a Good Idea. But... because this anchor has a hinged shank, at some point a storm or whatever will cause the shank to flop to one side or the other. When it does this, it will tear the plants that have attached themselves to the anchor out by the roots. So even on land, the CQR is a poor choice.

On the other hand, had this garden incorporated a Bruce anchor, a design I absolutely despise as a device to keep a boat in one place, it would have been an ideal choice. Its once-piece casting with no moving parts will not endanger the plants clinging to it. Also the Bruce's three flukes will give plants a chance to grow into interesting shapes and patterns.

Actually, I have it on good authority that the Bruce was originally intended to be a base for a garden feature. When the landscaper accidentally knocked the first Bruce plant base into a frog pond, on being retrieved it sort of dug into the bottom of the pond and resisted the pull to get it out. Somebody (Mr. Bruce?) noticed this and wondered if this same resistance to being pulled out of the frog pond might apply to anchoring a boat. The rest, as they say, is history.

Hmm, thank you, I didn't know that.

All anchor threads should be moved to Off The Deep End.

Marin said:

Actually, I have it on good authority that the Bruce was originally intended to be a base for a garden feature. When the landscaper accidentally knocked the first Bruce plant base into a frog pond, on being retrieved it sort of dug into the bottom of the pond and resisted the pull to get it out. Somebody (Mr. Bruce?) noticed this and wondered if this same resistance to being pulled out of the frog pond might apply to anchoring a boat. The rest, as they say, is history.

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Interesting! I've checked with Bruce ... I am not sure if he agrees or not?!

So, where are we going?

hmason,
What's a Suncor?

It's a manufacturer of stainless steel boat hardware and anchors. Suncor Stainless: Quality Stainless Steel Products & Services.

I know I shouldn't. I know I really shouldn't. But I'm going to comment.

I have anchored out countless times over the last 15 years. I have only dragged anchor once, and that was early on in a wind/current situation where I had only 15' of chain on a rope rode in a situation with current and wind combined. My sailboat spun around and wrapped the rope rode around the fin keel and ended up broadside to a 2kt current. I dragged and hit another boat. Minimal damage. After than I went with 100' of chain and never had a problem again.

So here are my observations. Once again I'm sorry - I know I shouldn't take the bait:

1) Danforth - amazing holding power in sand a mud - not so good in grassy/kelp bottoms
2) Bruce - great all around anchor - be careful in rocks - could get stuck - us a trip line if it makes you feel more comfortable
3) CQR - good all around anchor
4) Scope - use lots of scope - plenty - more than you need. You only have to worry about swinging room in a crowded anchorage. Otherwise, go for it
5) Chain - the more the better - as long as you are ok with the weight in the bow. I'm sure there are purist opinions about how it's not always needed. However I have found that having it has never been a problem
6) Setting the anchor - technique here (or lack of it) can totally eclipse your choice of anchor. I see people let out their anchor with minimal scope and then start backing up immediately to "set" the anchor. Don't do this. Ever. Anchors set best if they are allowed to settle on their own. This is especially true if there is any kind of grass or kelp on the bottom. I almost never back down on my anchor any more. You should be drifting slowly when you drop your anchor so that you don't pile the chain on top of the flukes and foul the anchor. Other than that - just let it do its thing - in mud or sand or any kind of grass/kelp it will set much deeper if allowed to settle on its own.
7) Use a good anchor drag alarm and pour yourself a nice drink.

That's it. Let the mud slinging begin.

Richard

Britannia said:

That's it. Let the mud slinging begin.

Richard

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I agree with most of what you say except about the Bruce which I think is one of the crappiest small boat anchor designs on the planet. But that's just me.

However, one cannot let a rollbar anchor "just sit." The design is what I call pro-active and it must be pulled on to make the design work. Otherwise it will just lie there on its side and not work.

With ours, we get the boat drifting backwards either naturally with the wind or current or with a shot of idle reverse on one engine. Once that's happening, we deploy the anchor and then pay out the amount of all-chain rode we want as the boat moves slowly backwards. When we've let out the desired rode, we use a short setting line to connect the rode to one of our heavily backed bow cleats. This line and cleat take the pull of setting, not the windlass gears.

Then when all the slack comes out of the rode as the boat continues to move back the rollbar anchor on the bottom does its thing, with the sharp fluke knifing down sideways into the bottom and then the anchor turns to present the entire width of the fluke to resist the pull at which point it immediately comes to a dead stop, usually stopping the boat hard enough that it yaws around a bit on the end of the rode.

The weight of the chain pulls the boat back forward, so whoever's driving, usually my wife, puts in some idle reverse to pull all the slack out of the rode again at which point we both use objects on shore to confirm the anchor is set firmly and we're not moving backwards.

This is why we are such huge fans of the rollbar anchor. It has a designed and defined process by which it first enters the bottom and then stops the boat and it follows this process every single time because its geometry and the rollbar force it to; it has no other choice. Other anchor designs are what I call "drop, drag, and hope anchors" as they depend somewhat to a lot on luck to have a fluke, or the fluke in some designs, catch and dig into the bottom.

Over the years I've watched boaters with Bruce/claw types, Danforth/Fortress types, and plow types drag their anchors around quite a bit before they finally caught, dug in, and set. Not a lot of times, and granted, the bottom may not have been suited for that particular anchor type, but so far--- so far being the operative words--- we have never experienced this with the rollbar anchor in the eight or nine or whatever it is years we've had had it.

Interesting comments. I've never used any of the rollbar anchors and so I have to defer to your technique and the ineffectiveness of letting them sit. I've only used "old school" anchors and so my comments only apply to them.

Have you had bad experiences with the Bruce? I had a 33lb Bruce on my 36' sailboat and never had a problem in a wide variety of situations. I now have a 110b Bruce on my current boat and haven't had any issues so far (only about 6 nights on the hook). In Alaska and BC I anchored in 120' of water which is a new experience.

My concern with backing up is that with many (older design?) anchors they are prone to skip when backed up. This is the most apparent with grassy bottoms, where the anchor needs time to settle down through the weeds and find the mud below. This is most true of the Danforth in my experience.

In the end we all develop techniques that work for our boats and our common anchorages. I still would argue that developing the right technique is more important than picking the optimal anchor.

Good discussion

Richard

Someone dared to state technique is more important than brand in an anchor thread!!!

Britannia said:

In the end we all develop techniques that work for our boats and our common anchorages. I still would argue that developing the right technique is more important than picking the optimal anchor.

Good discussion

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YES!!!!!

Thank You Richard!!!

I use a modified setting technique. My windlass is wired to a switch at the helm. So to anchor I push the switch into the down position until I am happy with the amount of rode I have out. Then I flip the switch that raises the cocktail flag. Simple.

Greetings,
I'm NOT DISCUSSING ANCHORS but Mr. TD's post brings up a question. One can not be intoxicated whilst underway. NOT being underway, in my mind, means either anchored, docked or hard aground. Soooo....If one drops anchor and proceeds to become legally intoxicated and starts dragging anchor, can one be charged with DWI?

Britannia said:

Have you had bad experiences with the Bruce?

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Yes, which is why we now have a rollbar anchor and the Bruce is residing in an Oregon landfill (which is where King County, WA sends most of its garbage these days).

RT Firefly said:

Soooo....If one drops anchor and proceeds to become legally intoxicated and starts dragging anchor, can one be charged with DWI?

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Nope BUI

Britannia said:

I still would argue that developing the right technique is more important than picking the optimal anchor.

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I don't agree with that. I believe that technique and type are equally important. Putting the emphasis on technique is like being an excellent Formula 1 driver and trying to win a race with a Yugo. Putting the emphasis on type is like giving a Formula 1 Ferrari to a teenager with a learner's permit and expecting him or her to win the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix.

In my opinion anchoring a boat successfully time after time is no different than doing anything else successfully time after time. It requires the best tool for the job, and it requires using that tool the correct way.