This is Crazy

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High Wire said:
"He who haveth a trade, haveth an estate" - Benjamin Franklin
No regrets going the tradeschool route.:thumb:
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:thumb: Me too, learned electronics in the Air Force '70-'74. Been employed ever since. The company I manage international service for won't walk in the door for less than $5,000 plus travel expenses. (That's for a 2 day call, after that it's 240/hr. Tick-tock).
 
First, as to some statements earlier of taking sides and other lack of objectivity. I have owned Mercruiser, Yanmar, Weber, Yamaha, MTU, and MAN, so when I defend CAT there's no personal prejudice. Second, I'm not a tradesman, never could be one, but respect those who are good ones tremendously. So, that said...

I believe CAT makes excellent engines and, on the whole, the CAT mechanics are excellent. As to price, as pointed out by others, CAT will cost significantly less to service than MAN or MTU.

As to the one line of the estimate, I attribute that to the computerization of estimates as done by major service companies in boats and autos. It does lead to some strange looking lines as it looks at items in isolation. As to the entire estimate, having not seen it, I can't be certain, but it didn't seem unreasonable for the work involved. Clearly the reason for choosing a certified CAT provider isn't to get the radiator cap replaced, although some fly by night mechanic picking up some after market cap that comes close but doesn't match can cause a tremendous amount of problem.

If you're capable of doing it yourself, then more power to you. However, choosing mechanics based on rates is dangerous and often leads to work without warranty and repeat problems. As pointed out, a free estimate, free oil analysis. And to show their honestly, they showed no issues with that analysis.
 
The cap replacement is likely to be the "most easily customer assessed for reasonableness item" on the quote. It is obviously unreasonable to me, question is: does that "unreasonableness" infect the whole quote, where assessment is less easy, or is it the unfortunate result of a computerized quote system, as B&B suggests, which might be cured by a human checking it before issue, but may still infect the whole quote?
The OP`s enquiring approach makes sense to me. I hope it works out. It is said here car dealers profit comes more from service than sales, not sure it`s true but it is said. I hear tales of a $1400 routine service fee for Rolex. Maybe the money is in servicing. There are plenty of competent auto service people expert in particular makes working outside dealer networks,(no reason that can`t apply to marine equipment) though sometimes special tools needed exclude them from some jobs.
 
There used to be a joke around Boeing that we lose money on every airplane but make it back on parts.
 
Clearly what's missing from the service estimate is the salesman. If your going to do a free estimate that involves a technician and oil analysis, why wouldn't you use a "Service Consultant" (salesman) to explain the bill. Good friend of mine is a self employed lift truck (forklift) mechanic. Lift trucks make boats look inexpensive. A one day preventative maintenance service can run thousands. So he works up an estimate, and goes over it line by line with the customer and explains how combining or deleting certain services effect the overall estimate. Could easily see a service consultant explaining that the different items are each estimated separately but the final bill reflects actual hours of service time, making a joke about the labor charge for the radiator cap.

Then again, they may do everything based on book time for each item and intend to charge you $120 for the radiator cap. :nonono:

Ted
 
Good for you Howard, wanting to maintain your vessel to a high standard. For the inevitable next owner, good service and records are important.
 
This is a most interesting thread and I truly appreciate everyone's input. Thanks to all. Maintaining my boat to a high standard is important to the safety of my family as we are full time cruisers. When conditions get dicey, I prefer to concentrate on my boat handling skills rather than worrying about what will crap out next. Howard
 
hmason said:
This is a most interesting thread and I truly appreciate everyone's input. Thanks to all. Maintaining my boat to a high standard is important to the safety of my family as we are full time cruisers. When conditions get dicey, I prefer to concentrate on my boat handling skills rather than worrying about what will crap out next. Howard
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That is the most important post on this thread... its theme/contents are priceless. Goon on ya! :thumb:
 
Marin said:
The cost of labor is driven in part by the demand and in part by the cost of living in that area. I would expect in the southeast states, labor prices in general are lower than they are here or in California for example.
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Marin is partially correct. There certainly is demand for CAT's expensive service. And living expenses may drive labor costs. But there is much more to it. I am sure there are also lower priced mechanics in most geographical areas. I know here in CA there is a wide spectrum of mechanics available to take my money. CAT, I'm sure has intentionally placed itself at the higher end. Why wouldn't they? CAT is in business to make a profit (Sorry mule, I know you think profits should be illegal).

Here is another way of looking at it. When I was a kid and my father end I took trips together across country, we never stayed in hotels. My dad thought it was a wast of money. We slept in his van to save $$. I did the same thing intil I was about 26 or so at which point I thought ponying up $35 bucks for a motel six was a good investment in a good nights sleep and a shower. Fast forward 20 years, and my preference in hotels is a Days Inn minimum and often a Hilton or Marriott that may be 5, 10 or 20 times the price of the motel 6. Both places give me a place to sleep and shower, but to me, I feel I really get 'more' when you stay in a Marriott. My kids get to use the pool. Breakfast is often included. The beds are more comfortable. Clearly, many people dont see the value in spending the money to stay at a Marriott. Conversely many people would never set foot in a Motel 6 as they don't see any value in it and prefer the Marriott instead. That is why there are Marriotts, Motel 6's, and everything in between. (I am not plugging Marriott BTW - just using it as an example)

At some point CAT decided they want to be a Marriot or Hilton type company. Some of you guys are talking like CAT is crazy for charging high prices. Well, I bet CAT is doing just fine. I'm sure plenty of government, commercial, and high end boat owners are content paying CAT's prices for their work.

I will say that in my own business, ignoring the 'going rate' and charging what will make my company profitable has been a wise decision.
 
You know guys when you think of buying a boat would you not contact the manufacturer of your engine for a 3/4 day course ?
You can see how it would save you bucks in the long run, quite apart from giving you confidence to tackle remedial maintenance.
MTU, Volvo, M.A.N ooh it fair makes my eyes water thinking about the bills.
 
By Bligh, "(Sorry mule, I know you think profits should be illegal)."

As labor leader Samuel Gompers once said, "The worst crime against the working people is a company which fails to make a profit. ... Yet, how does one determine the parameters of a corporation's moral responsibility to the welfare of its ..."
There is more, but I expect my management team to run the business responsibility, running responsibility includes all aspects of the business, sensible pay for managers, workers with investors being taken care of. All legs of the stool must be there or it will fail.
 
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bligh said:
Marin is partially correct. There certainly is demand for CAT's expensive service. And living expenses may drive labor costs. But there is much more to it. I am sure there are also lower priced mechanics in most geographical areas. I know here in CA there is a wide spectrum of mechanics available to take my money. CAT, I'm sure has intentionally placed itself at the higher end. Why wouldn't they? CAT is in business to make a profit (Sorry mule, I know you think profits should be illegal).

Here is another way of looking at it. When I was a kid and my father end I took trips together across country, we never stayed in hotels. My dad thought it was a wast of money. We slept in his van to save $$. I did the same thing intil I was about 26 or so at which point I thought ponying up $35 bucks for a motel six was a good investment in a good nights sleep and a shower. Fast forward 20 years, and my preference in hotels is a Days Inn minimum and often a Hilton or Marriott that may be 5, 10 or 20 times the price of the motel 6. Both places give me a place to sleep and shower, but to me, I feel I really get 'more' when you stay in a Marriott. My kids get to use the pool. Breakfast is often included. The beds are more comfortable. Clearly, many people dont see the value in spending the money to stay at a Marriott. Conversely many people would never set foot in a Motel 6 as they don't see any value in it and prefer the Marriott instead. That is why there are Marriotts, Motel 6's, and everything in between. (I am not plugging Marriott BTW - just using it as an example)

At some point CAT decided they want to be a Marriot or Hilton type company. Some of you guys are talking like CAT is crazy for charging high prices. Well, I bet CAT is doing just fine. I'm sure plenty of government, commercial, and high end boat owners are content paying CAT's prices for their work.

I will say that in my own business, ignoring the 'going rate' and charging what will make my company profitable has been a wise decision.
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Bligh, nice theory, but you failed on one key point.

Cat doesn't own the dealerships, they don't force the dealers to run their businesses in the manner desrcibed by the OP, they don't set labor rates, and they can't control what parts are sold to the consumer for. Clearly there are markets where this model works, and markets where it won't. Go to a waterman's town like Crisfield, MD and you will find a dealer like T&S Marine. One of the larger Cat and Cummins dealer /rebuilders on the East coast. There business is built on volume with low overhead. They ship to much of the East coast and out of the country because of their prices. No fancy show room, just a squared away shop with 8 or 10 employees, well stock parts room, and a seperate building with maybe 100 to 200 motors waiting to be rebuilt when they're sold. Genuine Cat and Cummins parts sold at substantial discount, and honest labor rates that are probably 60% of the FL boutique dealers. While most of their business is rebuilding engines, you'll find them working on a waterman's work boat, a million dollar sport fish in OceanCity, and the occasional yacht. Same quality of service as the boutique dealers, but for a whole lot less money.

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
Bligh, nice theory, but you failed on one key point.

Cat doesn't own the dealerships, they don't force the dealers to run their businesses in the manner desrcibed by the OP, they don't set labor rates, and they can't control what parts are sold to the consumer for. Clearly there are markets where this model works, and markets where it won't. Go to a waterman's town like Crisfield, MD and you will find a dealer like T&S Marine. One of the larger Cat and Cummins dealer /rebuilders on the East coast. There business is built on volume with low overhead. They ship to much of the East coast and out of the country because of their prices. No fancy show room, just a squared away shop with 8 or 10 employees, well stock parts room, and a seperate building with maybe 100 to 200 motors waiting to be rebuilt when they're sold. Genuine Cat and Cummins parts sold at substantial discount, and honest labor rates that are probably 60% of the FL boutique dealers. While most of their business is rebuilding engines, you'll find them working on a waterman's work boat, a million dollar sport fish in OceanCity, and the occasional yacht. Same quality of service as the boutique dealers, but for a whole lot less money.

Ted
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:thumb:
 
We're talking certified dealers with certified mechanics vs. the rest of the world. I'm not saying others can't be good. What I am saying though is that CAT, as good manufacturers do, has requirements for those dealers and mechanics. Not only does it insure continued education on the products but it costs money. Time off for training has to be paid for.

It's an individual choice who you choose to work on your boat and it's engines.
 
BandB said:
We're talking certified dealers with certified mechanics vs. the rest of the world. I'm not saying others can't be good. What I am saying though is that CAT, as good manufacturers do, has requirements for those dealers and mechanics. Not only does it insure continued education on the products but it costs money. Time off for training has to be paid for.

It's an individual choice who you choose to work on your boat and it's engines.
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Not sure if this was directed at my post or not. For the record, T&S marine is a certified dealer for Both Cat and Cummins with certified techs for Both manufactures.

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
Not sure if this was directed at my post or not. For the record, T&S marine is a certified dealer for Both Cat and Cummins with certified techs for Both manufactures.

Ted
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It wasn't directed at your post or any specific post. It was in response to the OP and other comments in the thread. Definitely not aimed at T&S.
 
A few months I was conducting an inspection of a large yacht. The 1400 HP Cats had recently undergone a rebuild using Cat parts as required and recommended by the local large (more tha marine) Cat dealer. The Captain, Engineer and crew did the rebuilds with some over the shoulder guidance from the Cat dealer. Had Cat done the work the estimate was about $65K but with no labor charge the crew did it for $27K of parts. And needless to say the crew did not provide a warranty for work performed.

I have been directly involved with Cat on negotiating long term maintenance and rebuild agreements on very large earth moving fleets with no thoughts as to getting ripped off as the competition was often higher priced.

A marine service shop I routinely work with is certified for Cat, Cummins and JD engines. If any gouging occurs it is across the board. Access to the ER is a big issue for this shop's pricing, often overlooked by owners when evaluating costs. A few days ago I noted two new Cummins 6.7s being dropped into a vessel with all in costs exceeding $100k. These would be great replacements for a pair of 3116s someday. Maybe 13 large, well spent, every few years isn't so bad. :thumb:
 
Update: the end of the story. Had a pleasant conversation with the CAT dealer's service manager who said he would review the estimate. He called back a couple of days later with a revise estimate for roughly $6K. He eliminated some things I could do myself, reduced the radiator caps to $5.61. I told him to go ahead with the work. The next morning he called and said a tech had resigned and they could not get to my boat in time for me to leave per my plan that they had originally agreed to.

Plan B went into effect. I engaged a former CAT tech who had gone out on his own and had a great reputation locally. He quoted the work at between $5 & 6K. I told him to go forward. He did everything on time and handed me an invoice for $5,100. He did more than CAT said needed to be done including all new hoses, washing down the engines and touching up the paint.

We left Stuart,FL today. The boat is purring like a kitten and I couldn't be happier. :D

Howard
 
So is it fair to say the $13K price was a trial balloon to see if you would bite with a lower more reasonable price if you objected?

Ted
 
Howard,

Great thread and I'm glad you are cruising again. Love your boat!! :thumb:
 
If someone PM'd you and wanted the contact number, would you recommend the Plan B mechanic?
 
Absolutely, without hesitation.
 
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