This is Crazy

Greetings,
Mr. 11...OK, that crow is tasting pretty sad right now. Later on today. Thanks.

I work for a hardwood lumber company . We make hardwood flooring and a lot of it . For the most part we do all of our own install ,maintance and trouble shooting on all machinery. Every once in a while we have to call in the high tech guy for a problem . We get billed by the hour and I notice that a portion of the time the tech is on the phone problem solving for someone else . I brought it the owners attention . His response was ,you know they do some problem solving for us on the phone sometimes and I'm sure it's on the other guys nickel . We almost always do what we can to solve our own problems but when we need the high tech guys we call them in , suck it up , pay the bill and move on down the road . Like the boss says " forget about and sell more lumber " .

BlueYonder said:

Labor was $3300. Next year I have the first valve adjustment coming up. Shouldn't be nearly as high. I like the Rydlyme treatment, too bad it won't take care of an aftercooler.

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Yep, figured it'd be about that. Maybe OP can use your work/costs to compare with his whole quote...

When it was time for our last (second) valve adjustment, I decided not to do that myself again. Turns out NONE of the valves actually needed any adjustment at all, that time... so my cost was actually quite low.

-Chris

Just received the billing for aftercooler, heat exchangers, zincs, repair of pre heater, turbo clean/inspect and other 1000 hour maintenance on twin CAT C9s (503 HP version). ER is very tight. Much effort was required to remove parts of exhaust system to gain access needed and even after that I am not sure how the tech wiggled into certain areas to gain access needed. I certainly did not enjoy the $10,300 bill which was mostly labor (and I certainly didn't have all this time or expertise). But still, the peace of mind when embarking on the Great Loop later this year is tough to put a price on. The tech even found a couple other minor items (not engine related) and pointed them out. I appreciated the techs expert advice and status reports (as this was a winter storage project so took a number of weeks as there was no hurry). Expensive, but a price that is largely due to the choice in boat, power, configuration, etc. Life is full of trade offs and compromises. Clearly, a single engine low HP trawler is much less expensive.

Mule said:

Look, I am a tradesman/ craftsman too. It cost what it cost to do the job. Do NOT insult me with a $120.00 radiator cap install while doing a $13,000 job. That is just stupid because it makes the customer (me) think that you think the customer (me) is stupid. Piss me off, work done or not, as a customer, I will stretch you out. You will justify EVERY line on that bill. I have a motto, if I as the customer ain't happy you as the contractor is going to be less happy than me. I will see to it. Screwing on a radiator cap for $120.00, and billing me ain't gonna make me happy.

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My guess is that a discussion between OP and his CAT folks would of course address the radiator cap issue. As others have speculated, I too suspect the initial quote was as if for X individual job at Y shop rates each. I might have gulped at such a quote -- at first sight -- but I suspect I'd not be surprised to learn from discussion that doing all that X work at the same time would be much lower than the initial quote.

Wouldn't mind hearing the results of that kind of discussion, if it takes place...

-Chris

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. 11...OK, that crow is tasting pretty sad right now. Later on today. Thanks.

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Send me a list first if you can. PM or email it.

capt(dot)bill111 at gmail(dot)com

One of my companies is installation specialist in masonry, concrete, tile, and stucco. Projects are bid with full disclosure regarding costs, schedules, start/stop date estimates and a full array of contingency protections for both sides on the contract. Change orders that may increase or decrease costs can be placed on the table at any time and must be signed by applicable parties to be put into force. T and M costing can also be utilized as desired by parties at hand.


I have no problem with correctly/closely calculating projects.


On another business front I currently have a $2.675M deal on the table regarding increased prototype development leading to international sales for a revolutionary "green" product. There are matching fund sources also at the table... from two nations. My Corporation for this agenda works with Universities in U.S and Canada as well as with a few other "green" businesses.


I use TF to stay grounded... I love boats because that's my nature... Ain't life a blast!

Kevin,
If there is a reasonable, acceptable expiation for the $120 radiator cap install ok, but if it a surprise w/no reasonable explanation then that is altogether a different matter. But ya got to admit, on the surface it appears a lot like the $250 aspirin on final billing at the hospital.

Mule said:

Kevin,
If there is a reasonable, acceptable expiation for the $120 radiator cap install ok, but if it a surprise w/no reasonable explanation then that is altogether a different matter. But ya got to admit, on the surface it appears a lot like the $250 aspirin on final billing at the hospital.

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Yes, of course I do.

My response would have been to call them and ask if its a typo.

Then I would have asked if the quote was a firm quote or a estimate. (but I should have already known this long before they ever set foot on my boat)

As I indicated I prefer to pay and bill for actual hours. Quotations are based on incomplete knowledge. If my customer (I contract out full time to a oil company) wanted firm quotes I would always quote high to cover any contingencies.

Their cost of the job would be higher because my company does not like non billable hours, so I wouldn't take a chance. Its that simple, I would CYA.

Back to the first post. Cat sent a tech to your boat and you were given a complete list of EVERYTHING that needed to be done, including part numbers, FOR FREE? And you're complaining?

As you noted, most of us would cherry-pick the list and address the items we could handle. Then we would go to our trusted mechanics and have them address everything possible. Anything left would go to the experts.

Golly, if I could get Cummins to do a comparable check on my engines for free I would be dancing on my flybridge.

Hmason

Like maybe a few others, I feel some details are needed. Like what engines, hours and time since last 1000 hour servicing, raw or jacket water ACs etc.

A big boat on plane as shown in your avatar is not cheap to maintain. An average per year engine maintenance cost for a 400 +HP marine engine operating in the 80% range will easily hit $2K. Assuming of course one does the book recommended maintenance.

There are some very honest responses here. Reality sucks, kinda like the teenager having to pay their own way! Two years ago I had new after coolers installed at around $4500 per engine. Life in the modern marine compliant engine era is not cheap. But, beats joining a country club and golfing IMHO

I glad all you Rich Boat owners have so much money to trickle down to the working class. I'm a poor boat owner / consumer and if I was offered an estimate with the lets see if "this one" is paying attention $120.00 + cap foolishness I would be looking for another shop.

sunchaser said:

Hmason

Like maybe a few others, I feel some details are needed. Like what engines, hours and time since last 1000 hour servicing, raw or jacket water ACs etc.

A big boat on plane as shown in your avatar is not cheap to maintain. An average per year engine maintenance cost for a 400 +HP marine engine operating in the 80% range will easily hit $2K. Assuming of course one does the book recommended maintenance.

There are some very honest responses here. Reality sucks, kinda like the teenager having to pay their own way! Two years ago I had new after coolers installed at around $4500 per engine. Life in the modern marine compliant engine era is not cheap. But, beats joining a country club and golfing IMHO

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....same question for you then...which engines, hours, etc? (I'll make a note to avoid them).

skidgear said:

....same question for you then...which engines, hours, etc? (I'll make a note to avoid them).

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Better yet, make a note to avoid those who say in place chemical cleaning of after coolers is OK. The perils of working out of the country and trusting "experienced" engine mechanics. There are times that boating in fresh water pays off, engine maintenace is one.

sunchaser said:

Better yet, make a note to avoid those who say in place chemical cleaning of after coolers is OK. The perils of working out of the country and trusting "experienced" engine mechanics. There are times that boating in fresh water pays off, engine maintenace is one.

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Which engines???

Capthead said:

This thread took sides.

Those that are tradesmen defended it and the others didn't. My take is it's way overblown and they are fishing with that quote. Looking for a sucker to bite.

I was in the car business and we did free inspections daily as part of the business plan. We didn't expect every quote to become a job, it was a quote. That's how that works. If the shop told you they send techs out at 150.00 an hour billable the minute they leave the shop and ending upon return, that shop wouldn't get any business. Simple as that.

The best advice has been said but I will add this, DIY. It's your boat.

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Exactly.

Seems very few on this forum have a car they take to the dealer.

It works exactly the same. The list of items to be serviced, is pretty much fixed, notwithstanding the actual condition of the engine.

Had they found anything OBVIOUSLY wrong with the engine, that additional amount would have been added to the above bill.

skidgear said:

Which engines???

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Cat 3056 aka PS 225TI

hmason said:

I had the local CAT authorized service center do an inspection of our engines....
Have they lost their collective minds, or do they think all boaters are rich by nature.

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hmason...

Why not inquire more about the estimate...
Are these individual quotes - pick any one at a time & that's the cost individually?
How much if many / all are done at same time?
Is this a firm quote or estimate? can / will work be done on T&M basis (and this is an est or not-to-exceed) or firm fixed price

I'm thinking you have little to lose - can learn something about how they price est's - and who knows you may need / want to go back to the "experts"
for some reason in the future... consider it an opportunity to learn more about them w/o any risk?

skidgear said:

....same question for you then...which engines, hours, etc? (I'll make a note to avoid them).

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Don't think it matters. I'd guess any diesels with turbos and after- or intercoolers from "fill in the blank" manufacturer... when routinely in service at approx. 80% or more of rated horsepower.

-Chris

I've not been MIA, just following the thread with great interest. So here's an update.

I called the CAT dealer and expressed my concerns with the estimate. I received a call back from the regional manager for the dealer who said he was reviewing the estimate and will call me on Monday to discuss it. The conversation was pleasant with no offense taken on either side. We will see how it goes. I located an independent mechanic skilled on CATs and highly recommended by a close friend boat broker who sells mega yachts. He examined the engines and delivered a very concise report that covered all of the items that I consider beyond my skills. (I will certainly delve into the radiator cap issue on my own and hope for the best ?.) His quote came in at $5K or a bit higher if things other than those quoted turn up.

I have twin CAT 3116s. I maintain them rigorously. I do my own oil, tranny, and coolant changes. I use CAT specified engine oil; SAEO (Special Application Engine Oil mfg for the CAT 3116 and 3126 marine engine) on a 250 hour schedule which we reach more than annually. I sample all fluids annually at the same lab and all are perfect.

The avatar picture does not show "Magic" on plane, but rather cruising at approximately 8.5 knots.

I look forward to the call from CAT on Monday. I will let you all know how it goes.

When we are north in CT, we belong to, and have a slip at, an affluent yacht club---we have been members for over 20 years. Not all, but many of the big boats, especially the big sport fish battle wagons are owned by "tradespeople."

I am a pharmacist turned medical publisher with degrees in pharmacy and a masters degree in business, who could not afford to join that club today. I'm not crying poverty, but I sure ain't rich. If you want to visit my business go to Welcome to ACCM. I can't sell you a single item of boating equipment but if you are looking for some solid nursing education let me help.

Thanks for all the input. Howard

Greetings,
Mr. hm. $13K-$5K is about $8K. Probably "They're flakes without a business license or insurance that show up if/when they feel like it and offer a taillight guarantee" although not necessarily so.

Anything but a flake. I've checked him out thoroughly. In fact, he's currenty working on the engines on a boat near me on the same dock. It's a 55' Fleming that's just about new. The guy who owns it has used him for years on previous boats and has been more than pleased.

The $120 labor charge for the cap installation is a small percentage of the total cost, but it certainly makes no sense.
I don't know how this service company does their invoicing for labor, but if that $120 was tucked in somewhere else; it would have been much easier to swallow.

Whichever way it comes, it's going to be expensive; but an invoice can be presented in a manner which does not offend. A small mistake, and an unhappy customer.

AusCan, You are so right.

BTW the fellow I mention is not working on a Fleming, it's a Marlowe.

hmason said:

Anything but a flake. I've checked him out thoroughly. In fact, he's currenty working on the engines on a boat near me on the same dock. It's a 55' Fleming that's just about new. The guy who owns it has used him for years on previous boats and has been more than pleased.

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The whole notion of paying time and material is fine as long as the person hired a) knows what they are doing, and b) works efficiently and diligently. Unfortunately, both are in short supply in many trades, marine services included. With T&M, the buyer assumes all the risk. If the service "pro" is learning on the job, doesn't know what they are doing, screws something up, doesn't diagnose a problem but rather guesses and replaces parts until the problem goes away, you bear the cost of all that, not them.

I'm happy to pay someone a premium rate if they can come in and fix something right the first time. Unfortunately, that is almost never my experience. More often than not they either don't fix the problem, or screw something else up in the process. Then you need to call them back so they can try again. Auto service is the worst offender. 90% of the time I end up paying someone to come waste my time and screw up my boat. Brilliant, right?

Anyway, I think what Howard has done is the best approach. Find a referenceable, well regarded independent person who wouldn't survive if they weren't good as well as honest. Then your money will be well spent.

HM

Sounds like you already had it figured out. Thanks for inviting us in. Are your 3116 JWAC? Really simplifies things if they are.

Ok, what the heck is JWAC? If you mean are they coolant or seawater cooled, the answer is coolant cooled.

Jacket Water After Cooled has been Cat's terminology for over 50 years for coolant cooled. On land engines the other option is air cooled after coolers. Your ACs should last a very long time since they are not seeing sea water.

Thanks! Something to be happy about.

"He who haveth a trade, haveth an estate" - Benjamin Franklin
No regrets going the tradeschool route.